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  1. #556
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nx01a View Post
    To me... Krakoa is colonial in the sense that its long term goal is to successfully colonize Earth once the pesky Flatscan neighbours die out. I'm happy the Krakoans are giving medicines to help ease human suffering, and I'm glad Xavier pointed out that he'd have loved to give them freely but everything that's happened between mutants and humans means the drugs now have a price tag attached. Medical aid for political support is definitely nothing new but it is certainly something the pesky Flatscans do a lot. There must be a better way, a Mutant Way!
    Ah, are you implying that Hickman would go as drastically so far as to have the majority of non-superhero humans die out from the Marvel universe, even with the drugs?

  2. #557
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Ah, are you implying that Hickman would go as drastically so far as to have the majority of non-superhero humans die out from the Marvel universe, even with the drugs?
    It's been stated that humanity will die out within a few generations. This is just the long game to ensure mutants breed and survive and eventually control society until the Flatscans are extinct.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  3. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Yeah that’s the thing about communities. There is no leader.

    Krakoa is a nation, not a community. Their political leadership is with the Quiet Council, though in practice some have more authority than others.

  4. #559
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Krakoa is a nation, not a community. Their political leadership is with the Quiet Council, though in practice some have more authority than others.
    Being a nation and being a community is not mutually exclusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Are we just ignoring what's going on in X-force or nah?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    just about any country.
    uh

  5. #560
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    You realize how juvenile that sounds, right? Everyone does it, so its OK if they do it! No, its not. Its almost always shown as a terrible thing when other nations do it, and Krakoa shouldn't get a pass at political assassinations and the like because other nations have done it before.

  6. #561
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    You realize how juvenile that sounds, right? Everyone does it, so its OK if they do it!.
    when it comes to survival of a whole mess of pool your scruples shouldn't come before the life of another person ESPECIALLY someone you're supposed be be looking out for

    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Krakoa shouldn't get a pass at political assassinations and the like because other nations have done it before.
    they shouldn't get singled out either
    GrindrStone(D)

  7. #562
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nx01a View Post
    It's been stated that humanity will die out within a few generations. This is just the long game to ensure mutants breed and survive and eventually control society until the Flatscans are extinct.
    Huh, what exactly are Flatscans anyway?

  8. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I would have never pegged them for a gay analogy before the Malcolm X/Martin Luther King one. Which is a super insulting comparison to begin with, for Malcolm X AND Martin Luther King. I didn't think X-men being used as LGBT stand ins was a thing until the 2000s.
    Thank you. Comparing Xavier and Magneto to King and Malcolm X ignores a great deal of what those two men were really like.

  9. #564
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    You realize how juvenile that sounds, right? Everyone does it, so its OK if they do it! No, its not. Its almost always shown as a terrible thing when other nations do it, and Krakoa shouldn't get a pass at political assassinations and the like because other nations have done it before.
    Pleas pay attention to the conversation we were having. We were talking about Krakoa becoming “the abuser/the oppressor.” Nowhere in the discussion was I talking about how “OK” it was.

  10. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    when it comes to survival of a whole mess of pool your scruples shouldn't come before the life of another person ESPECIALLY someone you're supposed be be looking out for
    Except it is necessary to have scruples, without them mutants no longer have the moral high ground. Not everything a person does can excused because they've got valid reasons for feeling oppressed. Rather than making the oppressed stronger it means the oppressors won by corrupting them into being their mirror image. Mutant terrorists like Magneto are walking billboards for groups like Friends of Humanity since they aren't straw men - that's why mutants following his lead are wrong.

    they shouldn't get singled out either
    This is a thread about the X-men, it would be strange to leave the current nation they govern out of the conversation.

  11. #566
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    The goal of oppressors isn’t to “corrupt” the oppressed. The goal is to break and devalue the lives of the oppressed.


  12. #567
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nx01a View Post
    To me... Krakoa is colonial in the sense that its long term goal is to successfully colonize Earth once the pesky Flatscan neighbours die out. I'm happy the Krakoans are giving medicines to help ease human suffering, and I'm glad Xavier pointed out that he'd have loved to give them freely but everything that's happened between mutants and humans means the drugs now have a price tag attached. Medical aid for political support is definitely nothing new but it is certainly something the pesky Flatscans do a lot. There must be a better way, a Mutant Way!

    I'll agree that Krakoa is certainly about the unity and togetherness of the mutant people [by any means necessary] but it IS grounded in one person's ideology: Moira's. Others have run with it and kept it going. It's also about being aggressive in the protection of mutants, and the maiming and outright murder of anyone who gets in their way whether politically, pharmacologically (RIP telefloronics nation), or militarily.

    The mutant metaphor is very much alive and well today, and it's very much about the empowerment and enfranchisement of mutants [and the revitalization of the X-franchise] but I can see how it's a mixture of Israel and Pan-Africanism/Garveyism.
    hmmm, I don't think i can really say it's colonial, as colonization is based in the extraction of resources while the Krakoan state has no imperial motives beyond their survival nor any intention of expanding it's territory in order to extract resources from mankind for it's profit. if they were to be labeled colonial, it would be closer to a sort of metaphorical colonization of the political or ideological variety. the Krakoan state is an insurance policy, humans are already on the way out naturally, mutants are just ensuring humans don't subvert nature and stomp mutants out first or take them down with them. they plan to be a part of the geopolitical ecosystem as their own entity and do what nations do, thrive and strive for a world that protects the interest of their nation and it's people. Krakoa wants to expand it's fiscal and political influence as a means to protect it's citizens but also snuff out bigoted ideologies, an admirable goal that most if not all nations seek out to do. that's not a colonist mindset, that's a nationalist mindset for self-preservation. they even operate on a previously unclaimed landmass as an isolationist nation, they have no colonies nor plans for any colonies (at least at this stage in their nation's existence). now, when Krakoa invades Madagascar and claims it for themselves or when humans begin to decline and mutants start branching out due to overpopulation on Krakoa, occupying human lands for Krakoan profit, then they'll start dabbling in colonization.

    for now, however, they live in a world ruled by commerce, and so, if they want to peacefully coexist as a sovereign nation they have to play by those rules. Charles would've, and wanted to, give their goods away for free, but he probably also wanted to stay in his home country without fear that he or his loved ones would get got for being mutants too. we adapt to the world we live in. is there a more expedient "mutant" way? probably. it would probably be to have all of Krakoa get the Moira X screening treatment, realizing how far the humans will go to kill them, and just launching a strike the likes of which humanity has never seen that'll wipe out all humans on earth before they can get a new sentinel operational; do us like we did the neanderthals.

    as for it being grounded in Moira's ideology, eehhh, is it tho? sure Moira's life experiences definitely were the impetus of the Krakoan state, but it's hard to give her the credit for Krakoa's ideological identity. for one, it would presuppose that both Charles and Magneto are only acting by Moira's will, which they are not because we've already seen them do multiple things that she did not sign off on like recruiting Sinister. Plus the fact that outside of Charles, Erik, and ma~ybe Apocolypse (you never know with that guy) no ones on the Quiet Council knows she's alive and they all collectively steer Krakoa's ideology and political identity. aggressively protecting one's own isn't an ideology exclusive to Moira, hell Magneto has been preaching that for years, and their strategy is actually the opposite of just maiming and murdering everything in their path, murder no human is literally their first law. That's why they are bothering at legitimate commerce through the krakoan pharmaceutical trade in the first place. who have the mutants maimed or murdered that wasn't actively trying to murder them or subvert their influence in order to make it easier to murder them? these aren't imperial conquerors, they're bureaucrats with big guns, they aren't asking for anything besides security and cooperative peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    You realize how juvenile that sounds, right? Everyone does it, so its OK if they do it! No, its not. Its almost always shown as a terrible thing when other nations do it, and Krakoa shouldn't get a pass at political assassinations and the like because other nations have done it before.
    asking Krakoa to operate at the superpower level, while not engaging in the practices of other nations at that level, would hobble it and lead to another Genosha. people aren't (or shouldn't be) saying that it's morally "right" or "wrong", it's simply a matter of playing the game of nationhood, and at a certain economic level you have to be able to move in accordance with how these powerful nations work in order to secure your nation's interest. otherwise, you're effectively asking other superpowers to exploit you, which is not an option considering the entire context for WHY Krakoa needed to exist. it's naive to think a nation like Krakoa could exist in a world with such predatory practices, operate completely transparently, and not be left vulnerable as a result.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 04-06-2020 at 12:05 AM.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham(respect thread)

    Martin to Malcolm: militant Professor X is kinda the wave right now

    DC: Batman & The Outsiders, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood/Outlaws

    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, X-Force, Hellions, Giant Sized X-Men

    Anticipated titles: anything from Milestone*, X of Swords

  13. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    The goal of oppressors isn’t to “corrupt” the oppressed. The goal is to break and devalue the lives of the oppressed.

    Only because you've been stopped every time you tried to, Magneto. And I guess Magneto forgot that time he made slaves of the denizens of the Savage Land. Don't even get me started on the various timelines Apocalypse did enslave people.

  14. #569
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nx01a View Post
    The mutant metaphor is very much alive and well today, and it's very much about the empowerment and enfranchisement of mutants [and the revitalization of the X-franchise] but I can see how it's a mixture of Israel and Pan-Africanism/Garveyism.
    It's funny that the most obvious metaphor for Krakoa is always forgotten.
    Wasn't there that picture of a statue of Xavier like Abraham Lincoln?
    I mean, a empty place colonized by a bunch of mostly white people with super-powers…
    (Right, there were Native American first there but they didn't matter much for the newcomers.)

    They created a new country, taking the land, exploiting its ressources, making their laws.
    Time has passed, new people have come but in the minds of the nostalgics, the country as it were, just for them, must feel like a lost paradise.
    And maybe the idea that the same process could start again is still present…

  15. #570
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    It's funny that the most obvious metaphor for Krakoa is always forgotten.
    What is it tho?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Wasn't there that picture of a statue of Xavier like Abraham Lincoln?well it wouldn't be that strange to see the liknes Xavier and the statue.
    I meeean Xavier was in a wheelchair for most of his comic life
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I mean, a empty place colonized by a bunch of mostly white people with super-powers…
    (Right, there were Native American first there but they didn't matter much for the newcomers.)

    They created a new country, taking the land, exploiting its ressources, making their laws.
    Time has passed, new people have come but in the minds of the nostalgics, the country as it were, just for them, must feel like a lost paradise.
    And maybe the idea that the same process could start again is still present…
    Are you comparing KraKoa to the events leading to USA??
    GrindrStone(D)

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