How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Electricmastro]

Funny enough, if you believe him in X-Men #4, he hasn't given up on humanity as much as it would seem he has. It's just that at this point, his overtures toward humanity are more of a carrot-and-stick thing, using a very heavy stick in the person of Magneto, who is there as proof that Xavier's serious about building a mutant nation and won't concede to humanity as he has in the past, at least not without humanity making serious concessions of its own. That's the lesson he's learned after years of attempting to forge a path to peaceful coexistence with humankind and being violently rejected each and every time.

I don’t think he was ever any less serious in forging peaceful coexistence, and that he didn’t need an island to genuinely mean it either. Then again, even Martin Luther King, whom I’ve seen been compared to Professor X many times, arguably helped achieve more productive progress in getting oppressed black people reasonably integrated into societies with white people relatively more quickly, in spite of all the atrocities that had been committed against black people, than Professor X did for mutants.

[Huntsman Spider]

Honestly at this point Charles feels more like his Ultimate Universe counterpart. He's even more patronizing than he used to be. I know that you are right, and that's what that speech was supposed to mean, but having him say that flanked by Apocalypse and Magneto, who literally joked about ending civilizations minutes prior, makes the whole thing ring hollow. And his mission statement/temper tantrum in HoXPoX had him saying that their goal is no longer acceptance, but replacement.

Or, to put it bluntly, Magneto was right. Just instead of using war first, they start with subversion and subterfuge. According to Moira, war is inevitable, so they're preparing for that by consolidating mutant power in one place. Or at least that was my interpretation

Yeah, that's the sad thing, to be honest. Also, it's a bit worse than war being inevitable between humans and mutants, because the actual inevitability is that in a straightforward war, the mutants ultimately lose to humanity, thanks to technological integration with human biology to create the homo novissima. That's where the subversion and subterfuge come in, to (hopefully) change that outcome. Of course, if Hickman's past work with Marvel is anything to go by --- he starts with the protagonists on the cusp of ascendancy and expansion, then he pulls the rug out from underneath them by sowing the seeds of their ultimate downfall, if not flat-out demise --- Xavier, Magneto, and Apocalypse, as well as Krakoa as a whole, are likely in for a very rude awakening in the future.

[Huntsman Spider]

I don’t think he was ever any less serious in forging peaceful coexistence, and that he didn’t need an island to genuinely mean it either. Then again, even Martin Luther King, whom I’ve seen been compared to Professor X many times, arguably helped achieve more productive progress in getting oppressed black people reasonably integrated into societies with white people relatively more quickly, in spite of all the atrocities that had been committed against black people, than Professor X did for mutants.

Interesting analogy, but that's also a bit of a problem with the metaphor --- whereas conditions for real-world minorities did improve somewhat despite the hardships and atrocities inflicted on them, as well as pushback from members of the majority/dominant culture to those improvements, the story of mutants in the Marvel Universe has been one of endless defeats and setbacks. No wonder they finally got fed up enough to throw in with Magneto and Apocalypse.

[pkingdom]

Interesting analogy, but that's also a bit of a problem with the metaphor --- whereas conditions for real-world minorities did improve somewhat despite the hardships and atrocities inflicted on them, as well as pushback from members of the majority/dominant culture to those improvements, the story of mutants in the Marvel Universe has been one of endless defeats and setbacks. No wonder they finally got fed up enough to throw in with Magneto and Apocalypse.

That's always been the problem. Unlike literally every other minority group in America (which, lets be honest, is the basis for the whole world in Marvel. We only recently started getting info on how bad things are for mutants in other nations) mutants have not made any progress. Things are still pretty bad for everyone, but the idea that things are the same as they were even 20 years ago is laughable. But with mutants, it has gotten so much worse, to the point of cartoonish acceptable violence. It makes the X-men less and less usable as a stand-in for real life minorities. Right now, the only minority idea they seem to represent seems to be the Back to Africa movement from the 1800s.

And because the mutants react to any attempt to limit their power as a secret genocide plot (which they always are, because subtlety and change are for manga), the mutants are often not all that sympathetic. Most of the central cast are super privileged, white, and good looking. They very rarely directly suffer the consequences of their actions; the people around them tend to bear the brunt of it. They are super dangerous and are a totally independent paramilitary organization who frequently employ the help of unreprentent terrorists and villains. Magneto had that line in X-men 4 about them not being able to tell good humans from the bad, and that might have been the most tone-dead hypocritical moment I've ever read.

[BroHomo]

I don’t think he was ever any less serious in forging peaceful coexistence, and that he didn’t need an island to genuinely mean it either. Then again, even Martin Luther King, whom I’ve seen been compared to Professor X many times, arguably helped achieve more productive progress in getting oppressed black people reasonably integrated into societies with white people relatively more quickly, in spite of all the atrocities that had been committed against black people, than Professor X did for mutants.

Prof X hasn't had the progress of countless others over hundreds of years, as stepping stones. He's been doing His solo dolo

That's always been the problem. Unlike literally every other minority group in America (which, lets be honest, is the basis for the whole world in Marvel. We only recently started getting info on how bad things are for mutants in other nations) mutants have not made any progress. Things are still pretty bad for everyone, but the idea that things are the same as they were even 20 years ago is laughable.

Well they have a Mutant nation,now with a really bright future. and has a means to reverse that massacre. +Xavier has finally stopped being Humanity's purring pussycat while Mutant children are being put in a pillowcase filled with rocks and left to drown in a stream.
But with mutants, it has gotten so much worse, to the point of cartoonish acceptable violence. It makes the X-men less and less usable as a stand-in for real life minorities. Right now, the only minority idea they seem to represent seems to be the Back to Africa movement from the 1800s.
Nah the violence against minorities is still preeeeetty ridiculously cartoonish.From the legal killings of African Americans by law enforcement, the reveal of how toxic male culture is if for women, and the more recent mass violence against certain groups, esp the relative no comment on the brutality perputrated against people who are trans.
And because the mutants react to any attempt to limit their power as a secret genocide plot (which they always are, because subtlety and change are for manga), the mutants are often not all that sympathetic.

I meeean it's kinda like that IRL. Why else would someone care about the progress of someone else Unless they feel threatened and we all see what people are cabable of when they think they are concerned. Not a lot of mutants I've read about have gone out just to fck some humans up, the villains who have some sort of violet tendies towards humans are only responding to what they've goten in kind

Most of the central cast are super privileged, white, and good looking. They very rarely directly suffer the consequences of their actions; the people around them tend to bear the brunt of it. They are super dangerous and are a totally independent paramilitary organization who frequently employ the help of unreprentent terrorists and villains.

Eh I feel like this is a a day dream of many minorites tho lol
Magneto had that line in X-men 4 about them not being able to tell good humans from the bad, and that might have been the most tone-dead hypocritical moment I've ever read.

Well a bad mutant would have fvcked your ass up with warning. Humans can smile in Magnetos face be the same ones who support the latest in mutant Genocide

[Steel Inquisitor]

Well they have a Mutant nation,now with a really bright future. and has a means to reverse that massacre. +Xavier has finally stopped being Humanity's purring pussycat while Mutant children are being put in a pillowcase filled with rocks and left to drown in a stream.

Krakoa has made progress with mutant kind as group, but a bright future? Hickman's been up front about Krakoa falling from the first day. "Mutants lose" is his run's mantra.

Nah the violence against minorities is still preeeeetty ridiculously cartoonish.From the legal killings of African Americans by law enforcement, the reveal of how toxic male culture is if for women, and the more recent mass violence against certain groups, esp the relative no comment on the brutality perputrated against people who are trans.

Agreed.

Well a bad mutant would have fvcked your ass up with warning. Humans can smile in Magnetos face be the same ones who support the latest in mutant Genocide

Bad mutants kill humans, you're lucky if you're left breathing around mutants like Sabretooth. Apocalypse kills humans like we'd get breakfast in the morning, and has had more than one plot to destroy humanity as a species. You're going to go with Magneto for your example? Humans only smile in his presence if they have no, he's a mutant terrorist and proud of that fact.

[Zelena]

Bad mutants kill humans, you're lucky if you're left breathing around mutants like Sabretooth. Apocalypse kills humans like we'd get breakfast in the morning, and has had more than one plot to destroy humanity as a species. You're going to go with Magneto for your example? Humans only smile in his presence if they have no, he's a mutant terrorist and proud of that fact.

Magneto is used by Xavier as a scarecrow. Funny way to built a peaceful relationship with the humans.

Modern authors have ruined Magneto who had become such a subtle and complex character. Now he sounds like a flip-flop wacko: 'I'm a good person'/'I'm an implacable person'.

[Electricmastro]

Right now, the only minority idea they seem to represent seems to be the Back to Africa movement from the 1800s.

Another interesting point as well, as in reference to what you’re saying here, I’m now wondering if Hickman’s writing for the X-Men thus far is possibly meant to be a reflection of his personal feelings of what black people should do to escape the discriminating, troubled situation going on for black people in America in the present day, and that those that lack the resources to do so should be helped as much as possible by others who are concerned, once again going back to the comparison between Martin Luther King and Professor X, as well as Malcolm X and Magneto, in regards to helping out others. After all, just as there were Jewish people that moved out of Europe to escape the fascist Nazi destruction going on in the 1930s and 1940s, and to reference what BroHomo had previously said:

the violence against minorities is still preeeeetty ridiculously cartoonish.From the legal killings of African Americans by law enforcement, the reveal of how toxic male culture is if for women, and the more recent mass violence against certain groups, esp the relative no comment on the brutality perputrated against people who are trans.

along with Hickman’s aforementioned writing, I suppose that, with this all in mind and understood, that at some point it has to be carefully and responsibly considered whether or not black people should do everything possible and be helped out as much as possible to move out of America, not as an insult to them, but as a way to escape the police brutality, wage gaps, and the lunatic racist-based terrorist groups that have been plaguing America after 1970, assuming the suggestion that America in real life is truly as irredeemable as America in the Marvel universe, even though the Marvel Universe is fictional.

I mean, I want to believe that it’s possible for things to get better for black people in America in the future, keeping in mind the atrocities that had happened to them in the past, just as I want to believe that it’s possible for mutants to reasonably integrate with humans in the Marvel universe, assuming there comes along writers that are willing enough to convincingly write that in, but, I suppose now that I’ve said that, that I should state here right now that I acknowledge the possibility that perhaps I’m being too optimistic and ignorant towards history, and that even with the best efforts of Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, Martin Luther King, and many others, that America has still ultimately amounted to a bad, if not, terrible, if not, worse place to live in for black people, as well as other minorities, due to the bad people that plague America today, and that, sometimes, perhaps it’s best to move away from society instead of attempting to integrate with it.

At any rate, if there’s only one lesson to be learned from Hickman’s approach to X-Men, then perhaps it’s that.

[Zelena]

I mean, I want to believe that it’s possible for things to get better for black people in America in the future, keeping in mind the atrocities that had happened for them in the past, just as I want to believe that it’s possible for mutants to reasonably integrate with humans in the Marvel universe, assuming there comes along writers that are willing enough to convincingly write that in, but, I suppose now that I’ve said that, that I should state here right now that I acknowledge the possibility that perhaps I’m being too optimistic and ignorant towards history, and that even with the best efforts of Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, Martin Luther King, and many others, that America has still ultimately amounted to a bad, if not, terrible, if not, worse place to live in for black people, as well as other minorities, due to the bad people that plague America today, and that, sometimes, perhaps it’s best to move away from society instead of attempting to integrate with it.

Where would they go, your black people? Krakoa is a miraculously empty place, just waiting for the mutants to come. There is no such place on Earth. US is Black American people's home.

It's really for me the limit of Hickman's run for me: it has no pratical applications. It is just a fantasy.

[BroHomo]

Another interesting point as well, as in reference to what you’re saying here, I’m now wondering if Hickman’s writing for the X-Men thus far is possibly meant to be a reflection of his personal feelings of what black people should do to escape the discriminating, troubled situation going on for black people in America in the present day, and that those that lack the resources to do so should be helped as much as possible by others who are concerned

Yes, Im totally sure those helping would be doing it outta the altruism of their hearts. lol Buuuut I reeeeeally don't think that's not what hes trying to say. Liiike at all.

once again going back to the comparison between Martin Luther King and Professor X, as well as Malcolm X and Magneto, in regards to helping out others.

In what way?

After all, just as there were Jewish people that moved out of Europe to escape the fascist Nazi destruction going on in the 1930s and 1940s,

Yeaaaah, Im not saying black peoples situation is anywhere near as dire as the government sanctioned erasure of the Jewish population. Or the mutant one. looking back from where black people were positioned when first "becoming Americans" its improved leaps and bounds. Mutant public history doesnt go back that far

long with Hickman’s aforementioned writing, I suppose that, with this all in mind and understood, that at some point it has to be carefully and responsibly considered whether or not black people should do everything possible and be helped out as much as possible to move out of America, not as an insult to them, but as a way to escape the police brutality, wage gaps, and the lunatic racist-based terrorist groups that have been plaguing America after 1970,

1970? what do you think it was like before that? Or everyone can just try being decent sentient people lol. Or an even better idea would be to get racists together and move them to Mars or something.

assuming the suggestion that America in real life is truly as irredeemable as America in the Marvel universe, even though the Marvel Universe is fictional.

I mean, I want to believe that it’s possible for things to get better for black people in America in the future, keeping in mind the atrocities that had happened for them in the past, just as I want to believe that it’s possible for mutants to reasonably integrate with humans in the Marvel universe, assuming there comes along writers that are willing enough to convincingly

The Xmen are a brand..... all comics follow a certain script. Bad guys fight evil sure a writer can write a convincing story where the good guys finally win buuut who wants to read that? Real life doesnt have a plot line. the possibilities are endless. which is why its more reasonable to have faith minorities have a better outlook than mutants.

I suppose now that I’ve said that, that I should state here right now that I acknowledge the possibility that perhaps I’m being too optimistic and ignorant towards history, and that even with the best efforts of Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, Martin Luther King, and many others, that America has still ultimately amounted to a bad, if not, terrible, if not, worse place to live in for black people, as well as other minorities, due to the bad people that plague America today, and that, sometimes, perhaps it’s best to move away from society instead of attempting to integrate with it. Again. the humans in the Xmen aren't free thinking real people. there's not a story dictating the actions of people in the real world, just ignorance and complacency. Not sure why a place that managed to elect someone like Barack Obama would be considered the worst place to live...

I meeeean itd be more likely to just pack up and ship out all the people who is not on a whole equality vibe. Its not like anyone has more of claim to America than anyone else.

At any rate, if there’s only one lesson to be learned from Hickman’s approach to X-Men, then perhaps it’s that.

Well theres a few more I can think of....Liiiike having a safe space for other people is cool, or perhaps...ya know the one that the xmen have always had to not be a douche to people different than you.

It's really for me the limit of Hickman's run for me: it has no practical applications. It is just a fantasy.

for me its showing the importance of having a safe space yourself. whether it be physically or otherwise

[pkingdom]

Where would they go, your black people? Krakoa is a miraculously empty place, just waiting for the mutants to come. There is no such place on Earth. US is Black American people's home.

It's really for me the limit of Hickman's run for me: it has no pratical applications. It is just a fantasy.

Krakoa isn't just empty, it provides for all of their needs. Its that planet from Avatar in island form. It magically keeps different people out, and makes it so mutants don't have to ever leave if they don't want to. Its totally an escapist fantasy. Which is fine, but again, hurts their applicability. Real world minorities can't all just **** off to an island when things get rough.

[Electricmastro]

Krakoa isn't just empty, it provides for all of their needs. Its that planet from Avatar in island form. It magically keeps different people out, and makes it so mutants don't have to ever leave if they don't want to. Its totally an escapist fantasy. Which is fine, but again, hurts their applicability. Real world minorities can't all just **** off to an island when things get rough.

Interesting. Do you figure the Back to Africa movement from the 1800s, which you mentioned, is out of the question for today and the future as well, and can be in no way a good comparison to mutants moving to Krakoa after all?

[BroHomo]

Interesting. Do you figure the Back to Africa movement from the 1800s, which you mentioned, is out of the question for today and the future as well,

It was less of movement and more of a krazy idea that got a lotta media attention. And uh Why Africa tho? Why not Canada, Mexico etc. Its not as if most AA have a significant connection to the place...and which country? as any AA have no idea what part of Africa they are ancestrally from.

can be in no way a good comparison to mutants moving to Krakoa after all?

and how would it be functionally to move 42 million people to Africa a place thats already been drained of many of its natural resources, a pop of about 2 billion people, still with many places needing proper infrastructure? mutants aren't being discriminated on KraKoa, which likely wont be the case in a mass exodus of AA to Africa lol. What about mixed race people? you cant be half or 3/4 etc of a mutant.

[Tofali]

Where would they go, your black people? Krakoa is a miraculously empty place, just waiting for the mutants to come. There is no such place on Earth. US is Black American people's home.

It's really for me the limit of Hickman's run for me: it has no pratical applications. It is just a fantasy.

100% This. This is pure fantasy for me because if i try to apply the politics being peddled buy this book to real world politics i'm immediately nauseated even going so far as question Hickman's politics and political agenda for this book.

[Nigel909]

I'm old enough to have a slightly different perspective on this . Way back in 63 the x men were seen as a representation of teenagers and the alienation they experienced at puberty , the sense of being different to , and misunderstood by their parents . That quickly focused on the gay experience with misunderstanding replaced by rejection.
It was much later that the MalcomX / Martin Luthor King analogy was grafted on , a little bit of "creative " history from Stan Lee.

So for me the gay analogy is still dominant . Who hasn't fantasized about a gay paradise ? Who could look at the Green Lagoon and see anything else !
And Krakow reflects some aspects of gay culture , grouping together in gay villages for support and safety.
I'm all for the fantasy.