Page 37 of 65 FirstFirst ... 2733343536373839404147 ... LastLast
Results 541 to 555 of 968
  1. #541
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    892

    Default

    I would have never pegged them for a gay analogy before the Malcolm X/Martin Luther King one. Which is a super insulting comparison to begin with, for Malcolm X AND Martin Luther King. I didn't think X-men being used as LGBT stand ins was a thing until the 2000s.

  2. #542
    Amazing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    It's really for me the limit of Hickman's run for me: it has no pratical applications. It is just a fantasy.
    To me it feels like the whole current direction is more about exploring the fantastic concept of a collection of various people who are born with super powers.
    Like the point seems not to compare this or that from the real world to the mutants, but going full: "Wouldn't people with super powers do things this way or influence the word like that?". Essentialy embracing the unrealistic/fantastic aspect of the Marvel Universe to tell a story that only fits into said world.

    For example. The major reveal of Powers of X was essentialy that after normal humans ceased to be, the mutants with their random super powers, were ultimately no match against a form of humanity that could give themself any super power they desire.

    This isn't even a real struggle of nature vs. technology since mutants got their super powers from the celestials manipulating their ancestors genes via technology. Just like how the blue humans got their super powers from the technology normal humans eventualy developed.
    Mutants are in theory as artifical as the blue humans that eventualy beat them in that universe. The only difference is that mutants were created by someone else and given the disadvantage of a randomizer to their super powers, while the blue humans were created by normal humans themself and not given a disadvantage.

    Fittingly the X-men are not suddently unwilling to use technology because it leads to the creation of Sentinels and blue humans. They are just using technology made with the X-gene instead of refined materials now. Computers, weapons, artifical limbs, drugs, vehicles, automatrons, etc. all made from Krakoa (a giant x-gene powered organism).
    Also a clone manufactory that can "print" out perfect copies of humans and mutants who died, just using the combined power of 6 mutants (someone has to use Cerebro's memory storage), rather than being the classic steel and glass tubes of (often shady) super labs.

    So ultimately what is this whole story about?
    Acceptance of humans who are different? A group of people fighting for a place in the world to call their own and live in peace? Natural evolution vs. artifical evolution?
    Or ist it just a grudge match of one form of humans born with super powers, against another form of humans born with super powers over who has the right to replace normal humans first?

    This gives me the impression that this is a purely fantastic setup, to tell a fantastic story, about fantastic people and not directly applicable to the real world in a major way.
    That Hickman is just going directly for the science fiction meat of the X-men and their origins. An enticing, detailed crafted, story meant be enjoyed by those who want to take a look into an alien world of people born with super powers and various players trying to direct things towards a future they desire.
    That some people might still compare it to the real world is of course unavoidable, since the Marvel Universe is still meant to be based on it.

    Again though just my personal impression.
    Last edited by Grunty; 04-04-2020 at 06:12 PM.

  3. #543
    Incredible Member kevinism's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    683

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    To me it feels like the whole current direction is more about exploring the fantastic concept of a collection of various people who are born with super powers.
    Like the point seems not to compare this or that from the real world to the mutants, but going full: "Wouldn't people with super powers do things this way or influence the word like that?". Essentialy embracing the unrealistic/fantastic aspect of the Marvel Universe to tell a story that only fits into said world.

    For example. The major reveal of Powers of X was essentialy that after normal humans ceased to be, the mutants with their random super powers, were ultimately no match against a form of humanity that could give themself any super power they desire.

    This isn't even a real struggle of nature vs. technology since mutants got their super powers from the celestials manipulating their ancestors genes via technology. Just like how the blue humans got their super powers from the technology normal humans eventualy developed.
    Mutants are in theory as artifical as the blue humans that eventualy beat them in that universe. The only difference is that mutants were created by someone else and given the disadvantage of a randomizer to their super powers, while the blue humans were created by normal humans themself and not given a disadvantage.

    Fittingly the X-men are not suddently unwilling to use technology because it leads to the creation of Sentinels and blue humans. They are just using technology made with the X-gene instead of refined materials now. Computers, weapons, artifical limbs, drugs, vehicles, automatrons, etc. all made from Krakoa (a giant x-gene powered organism).
    Also a clone manufactory that can "print" out perfect copies of humans and mutants who died, just using the combined power of 6 mutants (someone has to use Cerebro's memory storage), rather than being the classic steel and glass tubes of (often shady) super labs.

    So ultimately what is this whole story about?
    Acceptance of humans who are different? A group of people fighting for a place in the world to call their own and live in peace? Natural evolution vs. artifical evolution?
    Or ist it just a grudge match of one form of humans born with super powers, against another form of humans born with super powers over who has the right to replace normal humans first?

    This gives me the impression that this is a purely fantastic setup, to tell a fantastic story, about fantastic people and not directly applicable to the real world in a major way.
    That Hickman is just going directly for the science fiction meat of the X-men and their origins. An enticing, detailed crafted, story meant be enjoyed by those who want to take a look into an alien world of people born with super powers and various players trying to direct things towards a future they desire.
    That some people might still compare it to the real world is of course unavoidable, since the Marvel Universe is still meant to be based on it.

    Again though just my personal impression.
    Thank youuuuuuuu

  4. #544
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    the internet
    Posts
    2,354

    Default

    I've generally felt the X-Men has always done a great-to-decent job of portraying minority groups over the years. I've personally had always interpreted them more as an allegory for race more than one for the LGBT+ community, not that I believe they aren't also an allegory for the latter. as I got older and more educated on systems of oppression in regards to real-life racism, I became less interested in oppression in fiction with shallow or no real solution and, in addition to the realization of the complacency of the wider marvel universe, I became less interested in the X-men a little. Somewhere around my late teens i stopped being interested in the oppression porn generally found in black-targeted media, and X-Men started feeling kinda like yet another meditation on "hmmm, just how fucked are black folks?" for me but it felt par for the course for how America typically (but not literally always) deals with race relations in media.

    the X-Men right now, however, sparked my interest because it's reflective of race relations, particularly the diaspora, in a surprising and intriguing way that's both current and far more idealistic than more oppression porn that romanticizes martyrdom. What's fascinating about what Hickman's done is he is (possibly unknowingly) actually playing on major African geopolitical events and ideas, and in doing so has moved the X-Men from an allegory for oppressed black Americans to one for black people (and other oppressed minority groups) of the diaspora. Krakoa reads to me as how many Igbos had envisioned Biafra, had that materialized to sovereignty. a group of people feeling oppressed and marginalized, being slaughtered, and retreating en mass to create their cultural "safe space" was the impetus for Biafra, but I doubt that's the first/only rebel nation-state to pop up from oppressed people in Africa. beyond that tho, what I find interesting is how uncannily this era of X-Men is reflective of the growing Pan-African ideologies emerging from the continent right now. Someone mentioned the Back to Africa movement, and while that was probably when Americans were most famously focused on this idea, the ideology continues to be a regular part of the African political discourse today when discussing the diaspora. Just last year was Ghana's "Year of the Return", a campaign where they emphasized diasporan engagement and tourism, President Nana Akufo-Addo even announced that if you can trace your ancestry to Ghana you will be given voting rights in Ghana; to incentivize immigration to Ghana. In Nigeria people like Chike Ukaegbu, who last election campaigned to become Nigeria's youngest president, focus their platform largely on tech and education with a focus on bringing in those who are part of the diaspora, like himself, as a way to revitalize the country. So the idea of a mass migration like of oppressed people, like Krakoa, is not only timely and ideologically resonate but also sounds fresh and narratively enticing to me, especially considering the chaotic times America's been living through of late.

    the parallel only goes so far tho, and I don't think Hickman has his finger on the pulse of African geopolitics. while i do think Hickman is drawing on Return to Africa ideologies, it feel this is largely just him looking at the X-Men and taking them to their next logical step. people hate them and they can't change that, because branding, so they give them their own nation with EVERYONE and let them be hated, accepted, and able to tell new stories that they couldn't tell before.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 04-04-2020 at 10:07 PM. Reason: i go too excited before forgot to add the last part
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham(respect thread)

    Martin to Malcolm: militant Professor X is kinda the wave right now

    DC: Batman & The Outsiders, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector, Red Hood/Outlaws

    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, X-Force, Hellions, Giant Sized X-Men

    Anticipated titles: anything from Milestone*, X of Swords

  5. #545
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    892

    Default

    But the story is clearly meant to have some real-world applicability. HoXPoX had tons of references to Israel, and Krakoa had so many parallels to it.

    When you ask what is this story about, you're highlighting a big problem I have with it. There are serious mixed messages at play. HoXPoX had clear 'science vs. 'natural' evolution, but mutants are just using fancy tech, while having a magic island solve their basic problems. They don't care about acceptance, and are stoking conflict by actively messing with other countries. So what exactly is the theme here? What's the goal? And why should I be rooting for these characters? There's been such inconsistent characterization and voices for these decades old characters that I can't even get attached to people I liked. The combination of it all just leaves the story feeling a bit aimless with a hint of pretension.

    The story they are telling feels wholly inappropriate for these characters and this medium. This is still a superhero comic, set in a superhero world. For the plot to make sense, you essentially have to ignore the entire rest of the universe. You want to write a sci-fi story that makes grand pontifications about the nature and future of humanity, great. Its an idea that been done a million times before, but go ahead. But any stories about the future of the Marvel universe immediately have the problem that its never going to happen. Its even more laughable for the X-men, because of the ridiculous amount of time-travel shenanigans. Any future they strive for will never come. All of the conclusions reached can be done away with with a single issue, and again, are ignored by every other story in the same universe. Meanwhile characters are acting wildly out of character and are doing these things more because the plot says so.

    The biggest selling point of the X-men has been the characters, and the applicability of their stories. I've argued that the metaphors have been mishandled and full of unfortunate implications for years, but I can't deny that that is a big draw. When you throw away the applicability and mess with all of the characterization, what's left?

    I know I'm not wording this well. Basically, you have a dime store sci-fi plot stapled onto the X characters, that requires you to ignore decades of characterization and continuity, as well as the entire rest of the Marvel Universe to work. Its a story that asks big questions that have been asked before, and falls apart on scrutiny. Or, in other words, its the same as every X-men story has been for years now. The stories they are telling really don't feel that new or original. I'd argue Maruaders would actually work better as a concept if done prior to Krakoa. And not named after a pogrom squad.
    Last edited by pkingdom; 04-04-2020 at 10:49 PM.

  6. #546
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    1,668

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    But the story is clearly meant to have some real-world applicability. HoXPoX had tons of references to Israel, and Krakoa had so many parallels to it.

    When you ask what is this story about, you're highlighting a big problem I have with it. There are serious mixed messages at play. HoXPoX had clear 'science vs. 'natural' evolution, but mutants are just using fancy tech, while having a magic island solve their basic problems. They don't care about acceptance, and are stoking conflict by actively messing with other countries. So what exactly is the theme here? What's the goal? And why should I be rooting for these characters? There's been such inconsistent characterization and voices for these decades old characters that I can't even get attached to people I liked. The combination of it all just leaves the story feeling a bit aimless with a hint of pretension.
    It's aimless, it's a story which require immense world building to set the story up. I'm not sure if we're in act 2 yet but I think we're getting close. My theory is that Hickman is doing a deconstruction, like watchmen or Authority rather than the usual X-men story. He's taken threads the line has had over the years, put them all together in Krakoa and amplified them to 11.


    The story they are telling feels wholly inappropriate for these characters and this medium. This is still a superhero comic, set in a superhero world. For the plot to make sense, you essentially have to ignore the entire rest of the universe. You want to write a sci-fi story that makes grand pontifications about the nature and future of humanity, great. Its an idea that been done a million times before, but go ahead. But any stories about the future of the Marvel universe immediately have the problem that its never going to happen. Its even more laughable for the X-men, because of the ridiculous amount of time-travel shenanigans. Any future they strive for will never come. All of the conclusions reached can be done away with with a single issue, and again, are ignored by every other story in the same universe. Meanwhile characters are acting wildly out of character and are doing these things more because the plot says so.
    They may be in a super-hero world but this isn't a super-hero story. The traditional super-heroes are government spooks and politicians now, with all the implications built in. By how Hickman's structured the story I think he's allowed himself an out once this phase is over, for example, Moira X. She's the fulcrum of this exercise and taking her out could be easy to retcon or trigger bouncing back to the pre-Krakoa status quo.

    The biggest selling point of the X-men has been the characters, and the applicability of their stories. I've argued that the metaphors have been mishandled and full of unfortunate implications for years, but I can't deny that that is a big draw. When you throw away the applicability and mess with all of the characterization, what's left?
    Perhaps this is a transition to giving more opportunities to the franchise, since it's been too tied to not making progress, or reversing process given that Marvel editorial can't ever have mutant kind not be hated and feared. X-men as a brand are a harder concept to market without that backing it.

    I know I'm not wording this well. Basically, you have a dime store sci-fi plot stapled onto the X characters, that requires you to ignore decades of characterization and continuity, as well as the entire rest of the Marvel Universe to work. Its a story that asks big questions that have been asked before, and falls apart on scrutiny. Or, in other words, its the same as every X-men story has been for years now.
    I don't think Hickman hasn't slowed for that, and that may even be the point.

  7. #547
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    12,384

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    But the story is clearly meant to have some real-world applicability. HoXPoX had tons of references to Israel, and Krakoa had so many parallels to it.
    It has far more similarities to the pan-African diaspora movement than Israel.

  8. #548
    Spectacular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    246

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I would have never pegged them for a gay analogy before the Malcolm X/Martin Luther King one. Which is a super insulting comparison to begin with, for Malcolm X AND Martin Luther King. I didn't think X-men being used as LGBT stand ins was a thing until the 2000s.
    Afraid your quite wrong there . I was 14 in 1963 , and a gay rights activist in the early 70s . I can assure you th x Men were often spoken and written about at the time.
    As to more recent times , the Legacy Virus, a HIV, parallel first appeared in 1993.

  9. #549
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    479′S 12643′W
    Posts
    11,560

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    It has far more similarities to the pan-African diaspora movement than Israel.
    The Pan-African movement is about the unity and education of people of African descent across the diaspora, getting reparations for slavery, and ending the oppressive structures that still oppress black people to this day.

    Israel is about black ops death squads, breaking human rights conventions to secure and increase their land area at the expense and exclusion of their neighbours, hoarding and hiding weapons of mass destruction, and generally becoming the abuser after having survived abuse and genocide attempts [not just the Holocaust] over centuries.

    Xavier's Dream is Pan-Africanism. Krakoa is Israel.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  10. #550
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    12,384

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nx01a View Post
    The Pan-African movement is about the unity and education of people of African descent across the diaspora, getting reparations for slavery, and ending the oppressive structures that still oppress black people to this day.

    Israel is about black ops death squads, breaking human rights conventions to secure and increase their land area at the expense and exclusion of their neighbours, hoarding and hiding weapons of mass destruction, and generally becoming the abuser after having survived abuse and genocide attempts [not just the Holocaust] over centuries.

    Xavier's Dream is Pan-Africanism. Krakoa is Israel.
    What you’re describing for Israel is just about any country. Also, Krakoa isn’t becoming the abuser to any state (unless using advanced medicines as leverage to make sure your country doesn’t get blown to smithereens is suddenly an egregious act and not a pragmatic approach). A big crux of Israel is that it is a colonial state, which Krakoa is not.

    I agree with the explanation of the Garveyism approach to the new era, but it applies moreso to how Krakoa operates. It relies on the strength of the mutant community and not just a specific person’s ideology. Even •-[A]-• believes it was truly mutantkind’s goal to be unified instead of warring over divided belief systems.

  11. #551
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    1,584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Even •-[A]-• believes it was truly mutantkind’s goal to be unified instead of warring over divided belief systems.
    Unified, yes, everyone is for unification, but who is the chief?

  12. #552
    Fantastic Member davetvs's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    411

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Unified, yes, everyone is for unification, but who is the chief?
    Moira, secretly. Xavier and Magneto are figureheads.

  13. #553
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    12,384

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    Moira, secretly. Xavier and Magneto are figureheads.
    Moira may have been there to help guide them to this pint, but she’s made it a point to not actively meddle in what happens anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Unified, yes, everyone is for unification, but who is the chief?
    Yeah that’s the thing about communities. There is no leader.

    Last edited by Tycon; 04-05-2020 at 12:46 PM.

  14. #554
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    892

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    What you’re describing for Israel is just about any country. Also, Krakoa isn’t becoming the abuser to any state (unless using advanced medicines as leverage to make sure your country doesn’t get blown to smithereens is suddenly an egregious act and not a pragmatic approach). A big crux of Israel is that it is a colonial state, which Krakoa is not.
    Are we just ignoring what's going on in X-force or nah?

  15. #555
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    479′S 12643′W
    Posts
    11,560

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    What you’re describing for Israel is just about any country. Also, Krakoa isn’t becoming the abuser to any state (unless using advanced medicines as leverage to make sure your country doesn’t get blown to smithereens is suddenly an egregious act and not a pragmatic approach). A big crux of Israel is that it is a colonial state, which Krakoa is not.

    I agree with the explanation of the Garveyism approach to the new era, but it applies moreso to how Krakoa operates. It relies on the strength of the mutant community and not just a specific person’s ideology. Even •-[A]-• believes it was truly mutantkind’s goal to be unified instead of warring over divided belief systems.
    To me... Krakoa is colonial in the sense that its long term goal is to successfully colonize Earth once the pesky Flatscan neighbours die out. I'm happy the Krakoans are giving medicines to help ease human suffering, and I'm glad Xavier pointed out that he'd have loved to give them freely but everything that's happened between mutants and humans means the drugs now have a price tag attached. Medical aid for political support is definitely nothing new but it is certainly something the pesky Flatscans do a lot. There must be a better way, a Mutant Way!

    I'll agree that Krakoa is certainly about the unity and togetherness of the mutant people [by any means necessary] but it IS grounded in one person's ideology: Moira's. Others have run with it and kept it going. It's also about being aggressive in the protection of mutants, and the maiming and outright murder of anyone who gets in their way whether politically, pharmacologically (RIP telefloronics nation), or militarily.

    The mutant metaphor is very much alive and well today, and it's very much about the empowerment and enfranchisement of mutants [and the revitalization of the X-franchise] but I can see how it's a mixture of Israel and Pan-Africanism/Garveyism.
    Last edited by nx01a; 04-05-2020 at 07:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •