How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[marhawkman]

I think I recall it being said elsewhere that while the real life Civil Rights Movement was about building bridges, what Hickman is having the mutants do isn’t so much building bridges, but replacement, and the possibility that any herbs or help the mutants give to the humans is just stalling before the humans wither themselves into widespread extinction.

Not sure how much I agree with that, but it’s an interesting opinion.

Well part of the real-world Civil Rights is about wanting equality, some is more about feigning that and wanting to use it as an excuse to make demands.

[BroHomo]

Well part of the real-world Civil Rights is about wanting equality, some is more about feigning that and wanting to use it as an excuse to make demands.

Ehhh lets try to avoid debating the authenticity of marginalized groups goals and concerns

[Killerbee911]

I think I recall it being said elsewhere that while the real life Civil Rights Movement was about building bridges, what Hickman is having the mutants do isn’t so much building bridges.

Hickman X-men is still about building bridges but unlike the past if the humans want to tear the bridge mutants have a place to be comfortable . X-men have been negotiating for peace for years with out any leverage and no fall back plan if humans don't want to live peace. Lets compare Past and Now

Past: Humans want to live in Peace with mutants then fine they live in peace. If Humans want to wipe out mutants, Mutants are separated,unorganized and screwed. If Humans are fine with mutants being around but want to treat them like a second class citizens, again mutants are separated,unorganized and screwed.

Now :Humans want to live in Peace with mutants, Then fine Krakoa has no problems they live in peace. If Humans want to wipe out mutants, Then Mutants are organized and unified and are able to fight back use force to have humans leave mutants alone. If Humans are fine with mutants being around but want to treat them like a second class citizens, Then mutants are fine living in Krakoa in peace away from humans.

Humans have always dictated all terms in the relationship between Humans and mutants. Krakoa is an equalizer and gives mutants leverage when humans don't want to build that bridge. It is a bad example but I am using it anyway but if you are being bullied AND you don't want to fight you just want peace then one of best options is prevent the Bully from wanting to fight is this option. For this bad example I am giving the bullied victim a gun. The next time the victim is bullied he pulls the gun. Does that mean the bullied victim no longer wants peace? Of course not sadly the best way to stop being taken advantage is to show you are able to protect yourself and make the bully have to negotiate.

Now someone reading this is only going to concentrate on the bully/victim thing and is going to miss the point. And the point is Marvel Mutant and Humans can't build a bridge because mutants didn't have leverage without violence to get humans to "negotiate" better treatment and rights. Krakoa is the first non violent and political solution that mutant have had to make things better for mutants. And again I will restate the 3 possible status

1. Mutants and Humans coexisting generally living peace together
2. Mutants and Humans in active conflict
3. Mutants and Humans coexisting generally staying apart from each

Krakoa seem like a source for division until you realize with out some stabilizing force mutants have no back up options if humans don't choose to live peace. Now mutants have options now a bridge can be built and if humans don't want the bridge then mutants aren't screwed waiting for humans to realize that should be treating mutants better. While mutants are waiting for Humans to come around they can live happily on Krakoa.

[Ferro]

and coexistance can be in an international level, mutants are not stoping any conections or interactions, just now each mutant has the agency required to chose what they want, wich is afforded because krakoa equalizes the playing field.
Ironically now a traditional x-men team would be even more heroic and noble because it would be their personal decision, not a social tactic to serve and save their opressors into survival, like kwannon in fallen angels, her actions were true of heart.

[Zelena]

Hickman X-men is still about building bridges but unlike the past if the humans want to tear the bridge mutants have a place to be comfortable . X-men have been negotiating for peace for years with out any leverage and no fall back plan if humans don't want to live peace. Lets compare Past and Now

Past: Humans want to live in Peace with mutants then fine they live in peace. If Humans want to wipe out mutants, Mutants are separated,unorganized and screwed. If Humans are fine with mutants being around but want to treat them like a second class citizens, again mutants are separated,unorganized and screwed.

Now :Humans want to live in Peace with mutants, Then fine Krakoa has no problems they live in peace. If Humans want to wipe out mutants, Then Mutants are organized and unified and are able to fight back use force to have humans leave mutants alone. If Humans are fine with mutants being around but want to treat them like a second class citizens, Then mutants are fine living in Krakoa in peace away from humans.

Humans have always dictated all terms in the relationship between Humans and mutants. Krakoa is an equalizer and gives mutants leverage when humans don't want to build that bridge. It is a bad example but I am using it anyway but if you are being bullied AND you don't want to fight you just want peace then one of best options is prevent the Bully from wanting to fight is this option. For this bad example I am giving the bullied victim a gun. The next time the victim is bullied he pulls the gun. Does that mean the bullied victim no longer wants peace? Of course not sadly the best way to stop being taken advantage is to show you are able to protect yourself and make the bully have to negotiate.

Now someone reading this is only going to concentrate on the bully/victim thing and is going to miss the point. And the point is Marvel Mutant and Humans can't build a bridge because mutants didn't have leverage without violence to get humans to "negotiate" better treatment and rights. Krakoa is the first non violent and political solution that mutant have had to make things better for mutants. And again I will restate the 3 possible status

1. Mutants and Humans coexisting generally living peace together
2. Mutants and Humans in active conflict
3. Mutants and Humans coexisting generally staying apart from each

Krakoa seem like a source for division until you realize with out some stabilizing force mutants have no back up options if humans don't choose to live peace. Now mutants have options now a bridge can be built and if humans don't want the bridge then mutants aren't screwed waiting for humans to realize that should be treating mutants better. While mutants are waiting for Humans to come around they can live happily on Krakoa.

Krakoa… Krakoa…
What is Krakoa? An island but also a government made of individuals.
Have they convergent objectives? Possible but unlikely…
You think Krakoa is a source of stability. And if it is the case, it's fine. But it sounds boring.
In order to have interesting stories, I doubt the author thinks this way.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Hickman X-men is still about building bridges but unlike the past if the humans want to tear the bridge mutants have a place to be comfortable . X-men have been negotiating for peace for years with out any leverage and no fall back plan if humans don't want to live peace. Lets compare Past and Now

Hickman's X-men aren't building bridges, they're burning them. The X-men have been poor at doing that considering they're a super-hero team of unofficial mutant police and teachers rather than activists or politicians. They occasionally dip their toe into those things but they're not a primary concern, despite that being Xavier's mission statement. Don't generalise all humans as though people like Graydon Creed represent every human in Marvel, the bigots deliberately sabotage progress whenever any progress is made. Out of universe, the status quo will never allow true peace between mutant kind and humanity, it'd kill the brand.

Past: Humans want to live in Peace with mutants then fine they live in peace. If Humans want to wipe out mutants, Mutants are separated,unorganized and screwed. If Humans are fine with mutants being around but want to treat them like a second class citizens, again mutants are separated,unorganized and screwed.

This breaks down since both groups aren't in agreement on this issue as a species. Being human or mutant isn't decided on their genes, it's about culture and what they're taught. This glosses over the fact that unlike real marginalised groups numerous mutants, in groups or alone, are far from powerless against the state. Quite a few have the power to destroy armies by their lonesome, and have done so.

Now :Humans want to live in Peace with mutants, Then fine Krakoa has no problems they live in peace. If Humans want to wipe out mutants, Then Mutants are organized and unified and are able to fight back use force to have humans leave mutants alone. If Humans are fine with mutants being around but want to treat them like a second class citizens, Then mutants are fine living in Krakoa in peace away from humans.

Except people have been wanting Xaviers dream to come true since forever, isolationism and domination economically isn't going to last forever and has caused backlash of its own by anti-mutant bigots, because racism against mutants won't disappear simply by making Krakoa. Some humans want to do that, just like some mutants want to destroy and enslave humanity - a fact missing from this narrative. I don't like how your argument divides humanity and mutant kind as though they are a hive mind rather than species with large groups with differing opinions, from white to grey to black. There is absolutely no cause to create second class citizens on either side, of course this is meaningless when the only people o the island are a baby and someone's boyfriend/husband. What's the human baby going to do when they grow up and learn they're a second class citizen?

Humans have always dictated all terms in the relationship between Humans and mutants. Krakoa is an equalizer and gives mutants leverage when humans don't want to build that bridge. It is a bad example but I am using it anyway but if you are being bullied AND you don't want to fight you just want peace then one of best options is prevent the Bully from wanting to fight is this option. For this bad example I am giving the bullied victim a gun. The next time the victim is bullied he pulls the gun. Does that mean the bullied victim no longer wants peace? Of course not sadly the best way to stop being taken advantage is to show you are able to protect yourself and make the bully have to negotiate.

This is a bad example for Krakoa. This is far more complex than you're giving credit to.

Now someone reading this is only going to concentrate on the bully/victim thing and is going to miss the point. And the point is Marvel Mutant and Humans can't build a bridge because mutants didn't have leverage without violence to get humans to "negotiate" better treatment and rights. Krakoa is the first non violent and political solution that mutant have had to make things better for mutants. And again I will restate the 3 possible status

1. Mutants and Humans coexisting generally living peace together
2. Mutants and Humans in active conflict
3. Mutants and Humans coexisting generally staying apart from each

Negotiating requires both sides to have ambassadors and for too long both human and mutants have had "negotiators" who acted more like Blofeld than a real ambassador, which naturally made it harder for the actual ambassadors to talk between the groups because the zealots on both sides wanted to speak for everyone on their side and anyone who disagreed with them on their side was going to the morgue.

Krakoa is far from the first non-violent solution or nation for mutants. In fact, its the third nation (New Tien, Utopia) and the X-men have been doing non-violent things like activism, speaking to politicians, working with governments, going to the UN and being spokespeople on tv over the years.

Hickman's built Krakoa off many elements from the past of the X-men, he just put a new spin on them.

I dislike the implication of 3, as that encourages permanent isolationism.

It'd be great to see comics based strictly on the non-violent political angle to explore mutant rights but this is super-hero comics so expectations in the market place won't let it survive.

"Living in peace" is a vague term, can you articulate further on what that means?

Krakoa seem like a source for division until you realize with out some stabilizing force mutants have no back up options if humans don't choose to live peace. Now mutants have options now a bridge can be built and if humans don't want the bridge then mutants aren't screwed waiting for humans to realize that should be treating mutants better. While mutants are waiting for Humans to come around they can live happily on Krakoa.

This relies on the mutants not fighting each other, something which was somehow solved off-screen and is weird. Tensions between groups like this aren't solved over night, it's like a country split in two who have had civil wars fighting each other. As soon as this domino falls the whole thing crumbles and it's already shown weaknesses (Shaw, Apocalypse, Mr. Sinister). Except this is simplifying the current status quo too much into a black and white scenario, and we know things aren't that binary when it comes to Krakoa.

[BroHomo]

Hickman X-men is still about building bridges but unlike the past if the humans want to tear the bridge mutants have a place to be comfortable . X-men have been negotiating for peace for years with out any leverage and no fall back plan if humans don't want to live peace. Lets compare Past and Now

Past: Humans want to live in Peace with mutants then fine they live in peace. If Humans want to wipe out mutants, Mutants are separated,unorganized and screwed. If Humans are fine with mutants being around but want to treat them like a second class citizens, again mutants are separated,unorganized and screwed.

Now :Humans want to live in Peace with mutants, Then fine Krakoa has no problems they live in peace. If Humans want to wipe out mutants, Then Mutants are organized and unified and are able to fight back use force to have humans leave mutants alone. If Humans are fine with mutants being around but want to treat them like a second class citizens, Then mutants are fine living in Krakoa in peace away from humans.

Humans have always dictated all terms in the relationship between Humans and mutants. Krakoa is an equalizer and gives mutants leverage when humans don't want to build that bridge. It is a bad example but I am using it anyway but if you are being bullied AND you don't want to fight you just want peace then one of best options is prevent the Bully from wanting to fight is this option. For this bad example I am giving the bullied victim a gun. The next time the victim is bullied he pulls the gun. Does that mean the bullied victim no longer wants peace? Of course not sadly the best way to stop being taken advantage is to show you are able to protect yourself and make the bully have to negotiate.

Now someone reading this is only going to concentrate on the bully/victim thing and is going to miss the point. And the point is Marvel Mutant and Humans can't build a bridge because mutants didn't have leverage without violence to get humans to "negotiate" better treatment and rights. Krakoa is the first non violent and political solution that mutant have had to make things better for mutants. And again I will restate the 3 possible status

1. Mutants and Humans coexisting generally living peace together
2. Mutants and Humans in active conflict
3. Mutants and Humans coexisting generally staying apart from each

Krakoa seem like a source for division until you realize with out some stabilizing force mutants have no back up options if humans don't choose to live peace. Now mutants have options now a bridge can be built and if humans don't want the bridge then mutants aren't screwed waiting for humans to realize that should be treating mutants better. While mutants are waiting for Humans to come around they can live happily on Krakoa.

and coexistance can be in an international level, mutants are not stoping any conections or interactions, just now each mutant has the agency required to chose what they want, wich is afforded because krakoa equalizes the playing field.
Ironically now a traditional x-men team would be even more heroic and noble because it would be their personal decision, not a social tactic to serve and save their opressors into survival, like kwannon in fallen angels, her actions were true of heart.

....are examples of great posts that identifies, confronts, and answers most of the criticisms lobbed by KraKoa haters. THERE'S A degree of pigheadedness you'll have to possess to continually move goalposts

[Electricmastro]

Out of universe, the status quo will never allow true peace between mutant kind and humanity, it'd kill the brand.

I’m not necessarily asking for true peace, but let me ask this if I may:

Is it completely unreasonable of me to want some sort of progress/integration/whatever it may be called approach with mutants?

Now don’t get me wrong. I’ve said this before, but I feel the need to repeat it again that I’m positively sure that wanting such an approach isn’t the same as outright denying that prejudice exists, which seems to be what people usually think when I ask such a question in the first place.

Maybe shows like Star Trek have propelled my expectation/desire to have considerably different beings have some sort of meaningful build bridging, in spite all of the tension in between, and if that optimism makes me ignorant, then fine, you all can condemn in your opinions all you want. I still think there are writers out there that can be skilled enough to convincingly portray mutants integrating with human societies in a way that, while acknowledging that prejudice exists, that at the very least can support the idea that life is still worth living on Earth, or that life is worth living at all anywhere else. If Hickman can go as so far as drastically do as much as he did with the X-Men, then I think I’ll, reasonably, continue in my belief that there can one day come along a writer that can write human/mutant relations in a way that shows promise while also, I repeat, not ignoring that prejudice exists. If Star Trek can show promising relations between different aliens while also showing prejudice, while consistently remaining popular all the same, then I’ve no doubt the same can be done for X-Men if certain writers just came along and worked towards that.

[BroHomo]

I’m not necessarily asking for true peace, but let me ask this if I may:

Is it completely unreasonable of me to want some sort of progress/integration/whatever it may be called approach with mutants?

Now don’t get me wrong. I’ve said this before, but I feel the need to repeat it again that I’m positively sure that wanting such an approach isn’t the same as outright denying that prejudice exists, which seems to be what people usually think when I ask such a question in the first place.

Maybe shows like Star Trek have propelled my expectation/desire to have considerably different beings have some sort of meaningful build bridging, in spite all of the tension in between, and if that optimism makes me ignorant, then fine, you all can condemn in your opinions all you want. I still think there are writers out there that can be skilled enough to convincingly portray mutants integrating with human societies in a way that, while acknowledging that prejudice exists, that at the very least can support the idea that life is still worth living on Earth, or that life is worth living at all anywhere else. If Hickman can go as so far as drastically do as much as he did with the X-Men, then I think I’ll, reasonably, continue in my belief that there can one day come along a writer that can write human/mutant relations in a way that shows promise while also, I repeat, not ignoring that prejudice exists. If Star Trek can show promising relations between different aliens while also showing prejudice, while consistently remaining popular all the same, then I’ve no doubt the same can be done for X-Men if certain writers just came along and worked towards that.

I mean I get what you're saying and X-Men doesn't always have to be them vs rabid Mutant hating humans Or facing Extinction
if one day the writers wrote the X-Men in the way you describe in your post what would distinguish them for the avengers? We've seen humans chill with various xteams but I feel most fans aren't particularly interested in them. Very few people read Superman to get stories about Jimmy Olsen or Ma and Pa Kent

[Steel Inquisitor]

I’m not necessarily asking for true peace, but let me ask this if I may:

Is it completely unreasonable of me to want some sort of progress/integration/whatever it may be called approach with mutants?

That's hard to answer. It's not unreasonable to want progressive's in the setting, however, the context of the media itself can't be overlooked as expectations must ultimately rise to their level since they affect every word written. In the end they are a commody for a business which makes ongoing comics about all their titles.

Now don’t get me wrong. I’ve said this before, but I feel the need to repeat it again that I’m positively sure that wanting such an approach isn’t the same as outright denying that prejudice exists, which seems to be what people usually think when I ask such a question in the first place.

I've found people out more on the metaphor than the context of what the X-men are - which is a comic book. They are a metaphor, which allows itself to be draw to real minority concerns and when concentrated on the metaphor goes away entirely from the conversation so instead of discussing a mutant terrorist who can destroy buildings with their minds it becomes a discussion about real civil rights. I'm not saying everyone does this (like yourself), but it makes it harder to discuss the ramifications of what happens on the pages. Prejudice does exist, of course.

Maybe shows like Star Trek have propelled my expectation/desire to have considerably different beings have some sort of meaningful build bridging, in spite all of the tension in between, and if that optimism makes me ignorant, then fine, you all can condemn in your opinions all you want. I still think there are writers out there that can be skilled enough to convincingly portray mutants integrating with human societies in a way that, while acknowledging that prejudice exists, that at the very least can support the idea that life is still worth living on Earth, or that life is worth living at all anywhere else. If Hickman can go as so far as drastically do as much as he did with the X-Men, then I think I’ll, reasonably, continue in my belief that there can one day come along a writer that can write human/mutant relations in a way that shows promise while also, I repeat, not ignoring that prejudice exists. If Star Trek can show promising relations between different aliens while also showing prejudice, while consistently remaining popular all the same, then I’ve no doubt the same can be done for X-Men if certain writers just came along and worked towards that.

Trek hasn't got the same limitations as X-men, but they have their own things and the format is not ongoing - each series has its own status quo over generations, something X-men hasn't got. Writers can write future storylines all they want, Morrison and Claremont did, and they all drafted away once they left, which is how Hickman got his shot at it and eventually his will drift away, as well. It's the nature of comics. Trek also have ongoing disputes and wars among aliens, it was never truly "peaceful." They routinely run into comic horrors which kill crew members en mass. And humanity is far from perfect.

This isn't about the writers, writers rarely control their stories like that and even the lucky ones leave - Marvel owns and controls X-men They get the final say, they can do anything. They can turn all the X-men into hedgehogs for a year if they choose. You may be right but then what? That won't remain like that forever, especially if it won't sell. X-men's default is mutants being hated and feared and the being the "mutant police" - and this is going to impact how mutants are viewed or maybe an editor will want to cut down the population for whatever reason (this is how we got M-Day, Scarlet Witch was just the device to get there). Hickman's the exception, he runs the X-office - normally the editors have full control - which isn't uncommon with popular super-hero comics.

[Electricmastro]

X-men's default is mutants being hated and feared and the being the "mutant police" - and this is going to impact how mutants are viewed or maybe an editor will want to cut down the population for whatever reason (this is how we got M-Day, Scarlet Witch was just the device to get there). Hickman's the exception, he runs the X-office - normally the editors have full control - which isn't uncommon with popular super-hero comics.

Again, it’s not like I asked for the prejudice, which exists in real life, to be completely taken out. If a “default” of the X-Men series focuses on hate, then cannot something similar be said of mutant progress (going back to how minority progress indeed exists in real life) which Professor X has focused on since the very beginning? If Hickman can be allowed to do something drastic with that, then I’ll continue to believe X-Men can do more than one realizes, and even being a metaphor and such shouldn’t restrict it.

In any case, I respectfully disagree. If you come to have the opinion that X-Men should always focus on ultimately always being stomped on by the hateful reality, perhaps as drastic as life not being worth living for them anywhere, and not show anything different because of your conviction that the hate-based status quo will be the same no matter what, then fine, I’ll respect your opinion as it is. I don’t necessarily expect others to agree with me here, as I suppose I can come off as drastic, and some might even call me stupid for even sounding as such, but oh well. I at least take solace in being sure I’ve displayed my thoughts as reasonably and intelligently as I could, and just as you go forward in your beliefs and opinions, I’ll go forward in mine feeling no shame and the like, even if some call me dumb for questioning the status quo.

[Zelena]

Again, it’s not like I asked for the prejudice, which exists in real life, to be completely taken out. If a “default” of the X-Men series focuses on hate, then cannot something similar be said of mutant progress (going back to how minority progress indeed exists in real life) which Professor X has focused on since the very beginning? If Hickman can be allowed to do something drastic with that, then I’ll continue to believe X-Men can do more than one realizes, and even being a metaphor and such shouldn’t restrict it.

Frankly, if the X-men cannot be used to be a positive metaphor in any kind, I don't see what is their usefulness.

Fighting to show that, despite the differences, we can live together, no matter who we are, even if it sounds idealistic, I can understand. As an ideal, it has some power.

Being different and pack your things and go playing an immortal life on a paradisiac island, I don't really see the point of this kind of fiction. In our world, only rich people can do that except some eccentrics… besides being egotistical.
To me, Hickman's run, it is a middle-class dream (the parties, good life, the sun, no annoying neighbours…).

[marhawkman]

Ehhh lets try to avoid debating the authenticity of marginalized groups goals and concerns

I was talking about in-universe though. Mutant Rights groups may or may not actually want equality.

[Huntsman Spider]

I was talking about in-universe though. Mutant Rights groups may or may not actually want equality.

For the most part, the X-Men do want equality, at least so mutants won't be constantly attacked and threatened with mass murder, mass imprisonment, and even outright genocide simply for existing. It's groups like the Brotherhood, the Acolytes, or the Mutant Liberation Front that have been campaigning --- quite violently, at that --- for mutant supremacy. Apocalypse and his ilk simply care about "survival of the fittest," with the weak, whether human or mutant, to be brutally discarded and dispatched, while the Hellfire Club uses wealth and power to exploit humans and mutants alike for their own selfish profit. Then there're the Morlocks, who largely just want to be left alone and see the X-Men as a bunch of posturing hypocrites too consumed with their relative privilege to notice or care what happens to those mutants who can't blend in with normal humans and live in a fancy mansion. That's how things have usually worked in the X-Men's corner of the Marvel Universe.

[marhawkman]

For the most part, the X-Men do want equality, at least so mutants won't be constantly attacked and threatened with mass murder, mass imprisonment, and even outright genocide simply for existing. It's groups like the Brotherhood, the Acolytes, or the Mutant Liberation Front that have been campaigning --- quite violently, at that --- for mutant supremacy. Apocalypse and his ilk simply care about "survival of the fittest," with the weak, whether human or mutant, to be brutally discarded and dispatched, while the Hellfire Club uses wealth and power to exploit humans and mutants alike for their own selfish profit. Then there're the Morlocks, who largely just want to be left alone and see the X-Men as a bunch of posturing hypocrites too consumed with their relative privilege to notice or care what happens to those mutants who can't blend in with normal humans and live in a fancy mansion. That's how things have usually worked in the X-Men's corner of the Marvel Universe.

Then story happened and lines got blurred beyond recognition...