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  1. #1201
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    plus...it makes for a really interesting story and reading, regardless of how some few may feel about it.
    Going by how emphatic they are, some readers/writer should really submit their stories to Marvel and see if they can be hired. They could have a future at Marvel as the next great X-writer.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  2. #1202
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Mothervine mutants were recreated via-Mothervine of course, which probably isn't available or isn't trustworthy.
    Two things: 1; to my understanding, Mothervine can't make you a mutant. It can catalyze the revelation of your powers, or enhance existing powers, but if you're not a mutant it won't actually make you one. 2; it's as trustworthy as Claudine Renko wants it to be....

  3. #1203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Most of these examples are undery extraordinary circumstances. Rictor got his powers back thanks to Wanda having Life Force powers at the moment, Jubilee required a Phoenix Shard to be repowered, and you don't find Celestial tech just around the corner and likely they don't want to involve the High Evolutionary. Mothervine mutants were recreated via-Mothervine of course, which probably isn't available or isn't trustworthy. Polaris may be the exception but I think that was just the writers forgetting about the storyline.
    Apocalypse is defined by having Celestial technology, which he knows how recreate and adapt. His body is modified by that technology and his blood can restore mutant powers. Question is, why aren't they using this? They discovered all this in "Blood of Apocalypse" and that's canon. He's the key to all their problems. Did the writers ignore that storyline? Has anyone asked Hickman about that?

    We don't know if M'Day occured in previous lives and I would believe it didn't, since both it and Genosha slowed down their original plans by years. And The Five did not exist in previous lives, so Moira is not behind this. They are working around the problem.
    That's hardly a reason to stop trying to find other options.

    The Five are the best way to do it atm, it's just this. And they're not clones, they're Resurrected and Hickman confirmed it so no need to rehash that. You need to get killed because there can't be no copies.
    It just is is because Hickman chose that route to take, not that they have no other options. They have no other options because we don't see them trying to find them.

  4. #1204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Most of these examples are undery extraordinary circumstances. Rictor got his powers back thanks to Wanda having Life Force powers at the moment, Jubilee required a Phoenix Shard to be repowered, and you don't find Celestial tech just around the corner and likely they don't want to involve the High Evolutionary. Mothervine mutants were recreated via-Mothervine of course, which probably isn't available or isn't trustworthy. Polaris may be the exception but I think that was just the writers forgetting about the storyline.

    We don't know if M'Day occured in previous lives and I would believe it didn't, since both it and Genosha slowed down their original plans by years. And The Five did not exist in previous lives, so Moira is not behind this. They are working around the problem.

    The Five are the best way to do it atm, it's just this. And they're not clones, they're Resurrected and Hickman confirmed it so no need to rehash that. You need to get killed because there can't be no copies.
    Extraordinary these circumstances might have been, they were never the less examples of writers just snapping their fingers and giving characters their powers back because they desired these characters to have their powers back and editorial allowed it. All that was required was to make sense in the context of the story.

    Best example is Iceman who got his powers back via "it was just a trauma" almost right after House of M was over and Decimation started.

    By the same power however Hickman could have come up with any method that doesn't require someone to physicaly die and get printed out of a cloning manufactory. Yet he did.

    And this is my personal opinion as a reader, but i see no difference between what was created in combination of 5 mutant powers, a bunch of gene samples and machine stored memory backups and the classic methods Mister Sinister and others have used for decades to come back as new versions. Which in turn were usualy summarized as "cloning". Fundamentaly it's replication of a person with a different dressing. All they did in this case was to make it "their own thing" via mutant powers and that not even entirely.
    The fact that Sinister's own genetic library and an alien tech based device are a necessary part for the "five mutant plus one telepath" manufactory process to work just adds to my doubts.
    It's replication of a person's body and download of a backup mind. Not taking the "soul" of a dead person, from wherever they may linger or have gone to and put it back into a new body.

    So for me the "Five" aren't the unquestionable "best" way to repower mutants, they are merely presented as the desired way by Xavier and co. and chosen as that by the writer.

    A writer known for creating long drawn out of stories with various twists, reveals and turns along the way. In a super hero franchise known for these things too.
    To merely accept this process, without a doubt, as "the best possible solution" in a storyline that just started and was created via a massive retcon of 40+ years of publicated history, seems like a too easy option to me.
    It might end up being as easy as it seems. But until the Dawn of X storyline is over and all twists and turns have been revealed, i feel like it's a point worth speculating and doubting on.

    We just have to wait and see how things turn out in the end.
    Last edited by Grunty; 06-24-2020 at 07:38 AM.

  5. #1205
    Mighty Member Dante Milton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That's hardly a reason to stop trying to find other options.
    In the upcoming X-Factor book, Leah Williams has said that Prodigy will be repowered but he did not go through the Crucible, so it seems other options will become available. Of course, this other option may prove to be difficult or impossible to replicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    By the same power however Hickman could have come up with any method that doesn't require someone to physicaly die and get printed out of a cloning manufactory. Yet he did.
    Hickman very likely chose this method because he, and other writers and editors, believed it establishes a status quo that would allow for the creation of more interesting, better quality stories moving forward. So far, I would agree.

  6. #1206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Milton View Post
    Hickman very likely chose this method because he, and other writers and editors, believed it establishes a status quo that would allow for the creation of more interesting, better quality stories moving forward. So far, I would agree.
    Indeed.

    It is merely my viewpoint that such developments and stories might come from how dubious and questionable the process can be seen or turn out in the end. Especialy given the backstory to the current status quo and the damocles sword of the chimeras hanging over it.

    It is yet to be seen if it becomes a major fixture in the X-men's mythos or if it will go down as something the X-men have to willingly reject in the end for a reason.

  7. #1207
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Two things: 1; to my understanding, Mothervine can't make you a mutant. It can catalyze the revelation of your powers, or enhance existing powers, but if you're not a mutant it won't actually make you one. 2; it's as trustworthy as Claudine Renko wants it to be....
    Mothervine worked it was just very unstable. It caused powers to flare up beyond a mutant's control which was dangerous to themselves and those around them. This however is irrelevant when you have a mutant like Hope and Elixir around to stabilize those mutations if it were used. Those two plus MV would be the most efficient way to restore depowered mutants back to their former selves

  8. #1208
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    If 'human' is the 'normal' state of the depowered, shouldn't they stay this way?
    After all, the mutant movement is about being proud of who you are.
    Melody was given that option.
    Contrary to what others have purported...the Crucible is not forced on anyone. It is a choice they are given. A choice they make fully knowing what it entails.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  9. #1209
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    While I brought it up, i was not speaking to make solely part of that metaphor. See the beauty of the mutant metaphor is that it can show various aspects of other sorts of bigotry in the world.

    It can be used racially, it can be used for the LGBT, it can be used with the disability in its challenges faced by the characters that echo the challegenges faced by the real people struggling with those particular issues.

    I don't think the mutants can, or even should embody just one metaphor.
    And even in the real world, you also see many minorities getting together with whites, Native Americans, Japanese people, etc. in the cause of wanting to make the world a better place for everyone as respected equals in defiance of corruption, which I think contrasts with the mutants effectively mostly secluding themselves as cold, militaristic-esque godly inheritors of the Earth and economically and medically dominating the world in which they’ll eventually “evolve” the humans out.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 06-26-2020 at 07:33 PM.

  10. #1210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Melody was given that option.
    Contrary to what others have purported...the Crucible is not forced on anyone. It is a choice they are given. A choice they make fully knowing what it entails.
    On Krakoa the government approved options were: stay human or go through the Crucible to get their powers back. They may n to have put a gun to her head but they didn't have to. It's also a culture which is mutant centric, putting even more of a burden on her identity to do the Crucible. There are more options, but Krakoa isn't interested in exploring them. The "choice" is rigged. The resurrections are hardly known in detail to the public, Domino was resurrected despite the fact she told Logan wanted to keep her memories before dying - this wasn't adhered to with her resurrection. This sort of thing isn't public knowledge. And Melody is a civilian, a young impressionable teenager who wants to embrace her mutanthood. Perfect for cult indoctrination by Apocalypse.

    You want to know what's real fishy? Why hasn't anyone bought up that Apocalypse could cure her with his blood?

  11. #1211
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    On Krakoa the government approved options were: stay human or go through the Crucible to get their powers back. They may n to have put a gun to her head but they didn't have to. It's also a culture which is mutant centric, putting even more of a burden on her identity to do the Crucible. There are more options, but Krakoa isn't interested in exploring them. The "choice" is rigged. The resurrections are hardly known in detail to the public, Domino was resurrected despite the fact she told Logan wanted to keep her memories before dying - this wasn't adhered to with her resurrection. This sort of thing isn't public knowledge. And Melody is a civilian, a young impressionable teenager who wants to embrace her mutanthood. Perfect for cult indoctrination by Apocalypse.

    You want to know what's real fishy? Why hasn't anyone bought up that Apocalypse could cure her with his blood?
    Uh Despite Dr. Husk informing us that Mutants can continue their BB lifestyle since they can't get HIV, Who knooows what kinda celestial virulent STIs Apocalypse has contracted and built up antibodies over the course of his thousand+life. Melody wouldn't be so lucky... Do you really wanna see a teenaged girl waste away slowly from some Deep Space Chlamydia??
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #1212
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Uh Despite Dr. Husk informing us that Mutants can continue their BB lifestyle since they can't get HIV, Who knooows what kinda celestial virulent STIs Apocalypse has contracted and built up antibodies over the course of his thousand+life. Melody wouldn't be so lucky... Do you really wanna see a teenaged girl waste away slowly from some Deep Space Chlamydia??
    Maybe if they bothered using that Celestial technology, numerous scientists and reality warpers on the island to fix it rather than pretending they have to go through the Crucible? There's absolutely no excuse Krakoa can't get that working properly. Apocalypse has had sex before without issues, he's got a whole cult created by his children and their ancestors. He's a shapeshifter far above Mystique in his abilities.

  13. #1213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    So for me the "Five" aren't the unquestionable "best" way to repower mutants, they are merely presented as the desired way by Xavier and co. and chosen as that by the writer.
    In addition to Sinister's methods, Apocalypse could replace lost Horseman, as he did several of the Dark Riders who were killed, so the cloning/download technology seems to be available from multiple sources. I suspect the reason why Krakoa is using the Five, and not either Sinister or Apocalypse's methods is couched in terms of a 'mutant-derived solution' that doesn't use Celestial technology or Sinister's tech (wherever it comes from), but, quietly, is also preferred because the rest of the Quiet Council don't want one of the linchpins of the new society they are building to be dependent on the goodwill of Apocalypse or Sinister. And so they found their own solution.

    I do wonder if they've got Forge, Kavita Rao, etc. working on an 'anti-cure' that can reverse the various mutant cures *without* killing the person and growing them a new body.

    Or, if someone with a more fun agenda wants to design a 'reverse cure' that turns non-mutants into mutants, and engineer their own 'House of M' with a viral 'mutant plague' that turns the entire world into mutants... That seems like something Dark Beast (who has *so* downloaded his brain into 616 Henry, at this point, and been pretending to be 'dead' while usurping the body of his hated rival) would be up to.

  14. #1214
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Maybe if they bothered using that Celestial technology, numerous scientists and reality warpers on the island to fix it rather than pretending they have to go through the Crucible? There's absolutely no excuse Krakoa can't get that working properly. Apocalypse has had sex before without issues, he's got a whole cult created by his children and their ancestors. He's a shapeshifter far above Mystique in his abilities.
    We've really gotten into headcanons territory I see.

    HoM has been said to be very hard to reverse tons of times. We don't know how Celestial tech works and if it really restored the gene or gave you a version of your powers. And we don't know if Apocalypse has that tech with him.

    As far as we know, the solution is The Five. So far only the Phoenix Force and Celestial stuff has worked against Wanda's spell, if we exclude plot devices. The Five have been introduced as a solution after years of no solutions so it's safe to assume they do a pretty good work, or we wouldn't have had the Decimation years if it was so easy to replicate.



    Didn't they destroy Mothervine at the end of Blue? And injecting sinister stuff into mutants might not be the best solution, plus it made mutations go crazy.

  15. #1215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    We've really gotten into headcanons territory I see.
    Have you heard of Clan Akkaba? Chamber is a descendent of Apocalypse.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Akkaba

    They're in Krakoa, renaming themselves Coven Akkaba.

    You think Apocalypse blood is untenable? Fine. Show me where krkaoa decided not to use it or acknowledged its existence.

    https://www.amazon.com/X-Men-Blood-A.../dp/078511985X

    Looks canon to me.

    HoM has been said to be very hard to reverse tons of times. We don't know how Celestial tech works and if it really restored the gene or gave you a version of your powers. And we don't know if Apocalypse has that tech with him.
    Apcoalyuspe whole thing since inception is being a master of Celestial technology, that's why he's so powerful and how he got technology the X-men haven't sen before. He's the expert on Celestial tech on earth. He's modified his body with it for centuries. Time change in comics, something impossible to fix now will be fixed tomorrow. Remember the Legacy Virus? It was incurable until it wasn't.

    As far as we know, the solution is The Five. So far only the Phoenix Force and Celestial stuff has worked against Wanda's spell, if we exclude plot devices. The Five have been introduced as a solution after years of no solutions so it's safe to assume they do a pretty good work, or we wouldn't have had the Decimation years if it was so easy to replicate.
    Which solutions did Krakoa look for besides setting on the Five? I didn't say it was easy. They have Omega level reality warpers on their payroll so why aren't they using them?

    Didn't they destroy Mothervine at the end of Blue? And injecting sinister stuff into mutants might not be the best solution, plus it made mutations go crazy.
    Sinister's not the only scientist on the island, and they have reality warpers.

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