How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Electricmastro]

It's true that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the X-Men with the intention of addressing the dangers of prejudice, solutions that could be implemented to combat against the misguided fear that fuels it, and how this can reflect the experiences minorities face in real life. That said, to claim that all of the writers that have written for the X-Men, from Stan Lee, to Roy Thomas, to Chris Claremont, to Scott Lobdell, to Chuck Austen, to Ed Brubaker, to Matt Fraction, and beyond have all written with the exact same approach would probably be a tad bit unrealistic, including in regards to the prejudice-addressing aspect of the X-Men. So, for those of you that feel similarly, how would you say that this aspect of the X-Men has morphed and changed with how it has been approached throughout the 55+ years of the X-Men's published existence?

[tuck frump]

I like how fan reaction to the resurrection protocols parallel general public desensitization to the deaths of black and brown people.

[Woozie]

I like how fan reaction to the resurrection protocols parallel general public desensitization to the deaths of black and brown people.

??? You gonna need to expand this in a way that makes this not sound nonsensical. Cause Fans are not utterly ambivalent to the situation of resurrection protocols unlike the general public is to minority death.

[tuck frump]

??? You gonna need to expand this in a way that makes this not sound nonsensical. Cause Fans are not utterly ambivalent to the situation of resurrection protocols unlike the general public is to minority death.

Posters are arguing its utterly inconsequential that spoilers:

Domino seemingly got flayed alive or a kid watched her mother get gunned down

end of spoilers because they can just be brought back. Meanwhile we've had several pages worth of debate on whether or not it was ooc for Cyclops and Storm to be meanies to the nazi scientists in XMen #1 and for Kate to break the legs of those nice concentration camp guards who were only doing their jobs when they shot her in the face.

Humans are innocent even when proved guilty and their lives are sacred and full of unfulfilled potential. Mutants dying aren't a blip on a radar. Like Hickman/Xavier said in HoX #5, "it's just how life is for these people".

[rdman]

I like how fan reaction to the resurrection protocols parallel general public desensitization to the deaths of black and brown people.

Nope. I see the resurrection protocols and the wide array of mutants becoming heroes, with the exception of Sinister, and perhaps Mystique(who I find easily fits in a grey area), to appease fans who want other X-Men to be highlighted than the usuals like Wolverine, the original 5 X-Men, Storm, and etc...

i want to see Mimic and Synch be brought into the spotlight
.

[Zelena]

It's true that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the X-Men with the intention of addressing the dangers of prejudice, solutions that could be implemented to combat against the misguided fear that fuels it, and how this can reflect the experiences minorities face in real life. That said, to claim that all of the writers that have written for the X-Men, from Stan Lee, to Roy Thomas, to Chris Claremont, to Scott Lobdell, to Chuck Austen, to Ed Brubaker, to Matt Fraction, and beyond have all written with the exact same approach would probably be a tad bit unrealistic, including in regards to the prejudice-addressing aspect of the X-Men. So, for those of you that feel similarly, how would you say that this aspect of the X-Men has morphed and changed with how it has been approached throughout the 55+ years of the X-Men's published existence?

I'm not sure that this aspect has ever been taken very seriously… Comics are first and foremost about entertainment.
At first, the fact that mutants were outcasts was less important before and depended on the type of mutation and experience the mutant had had with society. Between the mutants that could pass as "normal humans" and the ones that proveked immediate rejection, there was no common experience. There wasn't a minority per se, just diverse personal experiences that were a source of drama, and so stories to tell…
Certainly, it has been taken more seriously recently, but the parallel is dubious as some posters have said previously: the mutants are maybe different from the norm, some of them are also intrinsically more dangerous and due to the variety of powers displayed, it would also be a nightmare for legislators and security services. There is more than a fear of the difference in the fear of mutants.

[Electricmastro]

I'm not sure that this aspect has ever been taken very seriously… Comics are first and foremost about entertainment.
At first, the fact that mutants were outcasts was less important before and depended on the type of mutation and experience the mutant had had with society. Between the mutants that could pass as "normal humans" and the ones that proveked immediate rejection, there was no common experience. There wasn't a minority per se, just diverse personal experiences that were a source of drama, and so stories to tell…
Certainly, it has been taken more seriously recently, but the parallel is dubious as some posters have said previously: the mutants are maybe different from the norm, some of them are also intrinsically more dangerous and due to the variety of powers displayed, it would also be a nightmare for legislators and security services. There is more than a fear of the difference in the fear of mutants.

I'm definitely open to hear any constructive arguments in regards how the prejudice-addressing aspect of the X-Men hasn't been given the proper analysis and worldbuilding it has deserved, because, like you mentioned, how entertainment is prioritized fire and foremost with comics.

It's also interesting how, like you say, it's taken more seriously now than how it was then. I'm reminded of a common comparison I've seen with the X-Men, which is Doom Patrol, whom I recall were treated as outcasts, less because out of accusations of human enslavement, evolutionary replacement, and world domination, and more so because they were just simply seen as weird freaks that were recognized as having the potential to hurt someone with their powers.

That's definitely a more down to earth, less intense sort of scenario than then stuff that eventually went on with "protecting a world that fears and hates them," because before cases like X-Tinction Agenda, Operation: Zero Tolerance, and the Genosha genocide happened, the X-Men simply had taglines like "the strangest superheroes of all" or "the most unusual teenagers of all time." The days when in addition to being insulted by mobs and encountering the Sentinels, they also encountered Frankenstein robots and mutant pharaohs, which I think more or less added a layer of fun to the X-Men too.

Also, regarding the point of how some of them are also intrinsically more dangerous, and that it's not just simply about a prejudicial fear of mutants being different, you reminded me of X-Men #14, in which Cyclops' optic beam blasts through the windshield of a car he was riding in after his glasses fall off.

[Zelena]

I'm definitely open to hear any constructive arguments in regards how the prejudice-addressing aspect of the X-Men hasn't been given the proper analysis and worldbuilding it has deserved, because, like you mentioned, how entertainment is prioritized fire and foremost with comics.

There was a wide range of reaction of the non-mutants towards the mutants, back then depending on the story, the relationship between them wasn't always the subject then as it is always the case now. The mutants have not always been an identified group too. There were also more stories about interpersonal relationships, too.

It's also interesting how, like you say, it's taken more seriously now than how it was then. I'm reminded of a common comparison I've seen with the X-Men, which is Doom Patrol, whom I recall were treated as outcasts, less because out of accusations of human enslavement, evolutionary replacement, and world domination, and more so because they were just simply seen as weird freaks that were recognized as having the potential to hurt someone with their powers.

That's definitely a more down to earth, less intense sort of scenario than then stuff that eventually went on with "protecting a world that fears and hates them," because before cases like X-Tinction Agenda, Operation: Zero Tolerance, and the Genosha genocide happened, the X-Men simply had taglines like "the strangest superheroes of all" or "the most unusual teenagers of all time." The days when in addition to being insulted by mobs and encountering the Sentinels, they also encountered Frankenstein robots and mutant pharaohs, which I think more or less added a layer of fun to the X-Men too.

More than "seriously", I would say obsessional. True, things have come to a point that it is impossible to ignore that the relationship between the two sub-species is very degraded. A lot of buildings have been destroyed during fightings and surely the human don't care anymore who are the "good mutants" and "bad mutants". Stories have been less about marvel and more about "dark" and gloomy… A sterile repetition of massacre and vengeance.
On paper, I'm not again a country for mutants… this way, they could have end this scheme and create a new balance of power, and so stories that are more varied and interesting.
Alas, Hickman has done it in so a artificial way with well-known characters so different… and he still likes the conflict between mutants and non-mutants. I suppose war has an appeal with its permanent tension. Nevertheless, during wars, there is a lack of nuance that is completely uninteresting: people are either for you or against you. Allies or enemies. Boring stories.

Also, regarding the point of how some of them are also intrinsically more dangerous, and that it's not just simply about a prejudicial fear of mutants being different, you reminded me of X-Men #14, in which Cyclops' optic beam blasts through the windshield of a car he was riding in after his glasses fall off.

I wouldn't certainly go after a man with "death-dealing eyes" and I don't think many people in real life would have done it.

[pkingdom]

I think the X-men have suffered because the aspect of them being used as a stand in for minorities has been overused, to the point that being an embattled minority group has been all they have been/done for the last 10-15 years.

The X-men have had the longstanding problem of 'embodying' minorities while not actually representing them. Like using language and images of the Civil Rights movement while having black mutants that could be counted on one hand. Throwing 'Mutant Pride' events while having almost no gay representation, and barely using them anyway. And the metaphor falls apart when you factor in superpowers. Being afraid and hating people just because they are black/gay/whatever is stupid and irrational. Being afraid of mutants because they can mind control the world and rewrite reality is at least rational. Now that's no excuse for lynching people who can make things glow or look like a lizard. But at this point, even the 'good' mutants have caused a ton of collateral damage and have been doing more and more questionable things in the name of survival that its not hard to see why the public wouldn't care about the distinction.

I think its a weakness to their ability to embody minorities that mutants can vary so wildly. They're kind of used as a one-size-fits-all stand in for minority groups, but when mutants run the gamut from 'looks totally average' to 'brain in a jar' and 'weird Cronenburg alien monster' and 'horrifying disembodied eldritch abomination' it kind of muddies things

[Crimz]

Admirable in the 60s, but no longer necessary. They're their own thing and they don't need to represent minorities. The X-Men aren't a very good representation for all the nuance and ranges that different people go through. They are their own fictional thing and I think that should be the outlook from now on. We have characters to story of real life prejudices and don't need a fictional race to show it. We can now tell authentic stories about prejudice with actual minority characters.

[Electricmastro]

I think the X-men have suffered because the aspect of them being used as a stand in for minorities has been overused, to the point that being an embattled minority group has been all they have been/done for the last 10-15 years.

The X-men have had the longstanding problem of 'embodying' minorities while not actually representing them. Like using language and images of the Civil Rights movement while having black mutants that could be counted on one hand. Throwing 'Mutant Pride' events while having almost no gay representation, and barely using them anyway. And the metaphor falls apart when you factor in superpowers. Being afraid and hating people just because they are black/gay/whatever is stupid and irrational. Being afraid of mutants because they can mind control the world and rewrite reality is at least rational. Now that's no excuse for lynching people who can make things glow or look like a lizard. But at this point, even the 'good' mutants have caused a ton of collateral damage and have been doing more and more questionable things in the name of survival that its not hard to see why the public wouldn't care about the distinction.

I think its a weakness to their ability to embody minorities that mutants can vary so wildly. They're kind of used as a one-size-fits-all stand in for minority groups, but when mutants run the gamut from 'looks totally average' to 'brain in a jar' and 'weird Cronenburg alien monster' and 'horrifying disembodied eldritch abomination' it kind of muddies things

I suppose one has to consider the possibility at some point as to whether or not the X-Men had suffered because that aspect had been overused, and all they have been/done for the last 10-15 years like you mentioned, pigeonholing them in regards to what kinds of stories could be told despite the best efforts from the writers. Even in the era shortly after Days of Future Past, Claremont wrote a mutant fairy tale in issue 153 and ninja battles in issue 173, and seemed to reinforce how there was very much still a good place for a good amount of fun in the X-Men stories.

And yeah, even with there being black and gay mutants, the subject of "mutants with dangerous superpowers who could dominate and enslave others" never seems to fully go away, and may lead to any metaphor falling apart because of that sort of elephant of paranoia in the room.

[Electricmastro]

There was a wide range of reaction of the non-mutants towards the mutants, back then depending on the story, the relationship between them wasn't always the subject then as it is always the case now. The mutants have not always been an identified group too. There were also more stories about interpersonal relationships, too.


More than "seriously", I would say obsessional. True, things have come to a point that it is impossible to ignore that the relationship between the two sub-species is very degraded. A lot of buildings have been destroyed during fightings and surely the human don't care anymore who are the "good mutants" and "bad mutants". Stories have been less about marvel and more about "dark" and gloomy… A sterile repetition of massacre and vengeance.
On paper, I'm not again a country for mutants… this way, they could have end this scheme and create a new balance of power, and so stories that are more varied and interesting.
Alas, Hickman has done it in so a artificial way with well-known characters so different… and he still likes the conflict between mutants and non-mutants. I suppose war has an appeal with its permanent tension. Nevertheless, during wars, there is a lack of nuance that is completely uninteresting: people are either for you or against you. Allies or enemies. Boring stories.


I wouldn't certainly go after a man with "death-dealing eyes" and I don't think many people in real life would have done it.

It was quite interesting how Stan how the public had a variety of reaction towards the mutants, like how the general is willing to honor the name of the X-Men at the end of issue 1, Cyclops being greeted and Angel being kissed in issue 2, etc. It's not really until issue 5 that you see a mob rage against a mutant, and it was on the grounds of Toad being a phony that was part of some hoax, possibly out of a fear of feeling inferior. In issue 8, when a crowd sees the Beast rescue a child, they assume he did it to make them think mutants aren't dangerous, though it's also in the same issue in which he wrestles in front of another crowd, and they don't mob against him on the accusation of him being a mutant, despite his large features.

And yeah, I definitely agree with the point of previous writers, intentional or not, having degraded relations between mutants and non-mutants to the point that the sterile repetition of massacre and vengeance has morphed the series into a dark, gloomy, dreary, pessimistic, and perhaps even dystopian sort of comic. Even with the best of intentions, and after me having given multiple chances of reading the newer issues over and over again, it had ended up becoming the sort of comic which feels less approachable and enjoyable to me compared to when I read the earlier issues. I'm definitely all for Hickman's vision if it means having more consistently interesting variety in the relations and variety in the stories themselves too.

I suppose also worth mentioning is that in issue 4, Professor X basically explains his overall goal with the X-Men, in that he wishes to not only save mankind, but also use their powers to bring about a golden age on Earth, side by side with ordinary humans. Despite mankind's flaws, shortcomings, and the wrongs mankind has done, he definitely gave me the impression that mankind still has the capability to get better, and that while prejudice doesn't completely go away overnight, it's also not impossible to achieve any sort of progress in regards to combating against it.

[Frobisher]

This has been edited. In the original Xavier offers Magneto an astral hostess fruit pie and he forgets about enslaving the humans.

Anyway, in this page you can see how each man compromised to get to Krakoa. Mags did give up on his overlord ideas, and Xavier doesn’t get mutants living and humans “side-by-side” exactly, but is creating a golden age with the human drugs while mutants are now theoretically safe.

[Zelena]

I suppose also worth mentioning is that in issue 4, Professor X basically explains his overall goal with the X-Men, in that he wishes to not only save mankind, but also use their powers to bring about a golden age on Earth, side by side with ordinary humans. Despite mankind's flaws, shortcomings, and the wrongs mankind has done, he definitely gave me the impression that mankind still has the capability to get better, and that while prejudice doesn't completely go away overnight, it's also not impossible to achieve any sort of progress in regards to combating against it.

I don't think the humans are able to progress, per se… But to me, a real "Homo superior" would be able to understand theirs brothers "Homo sapiens" and would know how to deal with them in a decent, satisfying way. Cleverness would be the real superpower. And I wouldn't mind if they could help us with the climate change (and other trifles) because I really don't know how we will manage…

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Kieron Gillen said once that the X-Men work best as a metaphor for being an outsider and being marginalized but they collapse as soon as you try to apply any one real life parallel to it. I think that's succinct.

In different times the X-Men stand in for different stuff:
-- In Claremont's run, X-Men was a romantic expression of being persecuted and marginalized and a stand-in for the oppressed. Whether it's racism, homophobia, sexism and so on and so forth. You had Genosha, a mutant apartheid state, and Claremont said that Israeli politics and so on was an influence.
-- In Bryan Singer's X-Men, being a mutant is about being gay.
-- In Grant Morrison's New X-Men, being a mutant is about being an outsider, about challenging middle-class society, and overturning norms and so on. It was about challenging and expanding the idea of normal. So you had Emma Frost as a bohemian a--hole challenging the stuffy bourgeois couple of Scott/Jean, you have weird mutants like Beak and Angel Salvadore, you have even weirder stuff like sentient viruses and of couse the U-Men, dudes who want to be mutants but are in fact Sublime.
-- In James Mangold's LOGAN, mutants are about fear of enclosure and automation, with corporations taking over the X-Gene and putting a price-cap on it and making the X-gene a corporate-owned IP (which also works as an allegory for Mangold working on a Marvel licensed property, hence the comic books discussed in the movie).
-- In Hickman's HoX/PoX, the X-Men are a mix of Morrison and Mangold. They challenge and expand on the idea of normal but there's also a fear of an oncoming singularity that would lead to a natural environment being displaced by a technological one.