How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Steel Inquisitor]

Shogo and Kyle live on Krakoa. Forge's colleague was allowed to come on the island and he now lives in an habitat.

Shogo's in the UK, when he's not in Otherworld being a dragon. And we have one person, when we know the X-men have a history of working with numerous humans and other species when the X-men were a super-hero group. You forgot to mention that non-mutants can't go anywhere in krakoa without a mutant 'minder.'

You forget they're only some months old and they have already had terrorist attacks by humans, you don't open your country to tourism when that happens.

They've had enough time to get things sorted, from the military to education to democracy and all of this is far from high priorities to th government. Xavier was perfectly ok making a big priority by setting up the Quiet Council, an unelected body which he leads unofficially. Those humans were old ladies, it was hardly a Sentinel fleet.

They should be moving far faster than what we've seen given that many of the people in the Quiet Council have done this before and Cyclops has, too. It's like they've completely forgotten the knowledge from those experiences.

Instead to set up steps which would allow tourism, like having alliances with other countries they've put in more effort to alienate them.

[Electricmastro]

Some of those suspicious humans leaders are deep into Sentinel programs or are having children kidnapped and turned into supersoldiers so...

Part of a desperate ploy in fear of them not wanting to be replaced I suspect. Kurt Busiek had actually taken the rare step of providing more likely analytical context for human fear in Marvels. I think he succeeded in lending more to analysis where other writers writing human/mutant relations throughout most of the 90s, 2000s, and 2010s had failed. Perhaps it’s not the most prevalent fuel source for fear, but a compelling one to me nonetheless.

[Veitha]

Shogo's in the UK, when he's not in Otherworld being a dragon. And we have one person, when we know the X-men have a history of working with numerous humans and other species when the X-men were a super-hero group. You forgot to mention that non-mutants can't go anywhere in krakoa without a mutant 'minder.'

Shogo lives on Krakoa. The only other example we have had of humans needing an escort was the Ambassadors, one of which carried a weapon which he was willing to use. They're being cautios since, as I said, they have already had terrorist attacks by humans on the island and many deaths, including the death of their leader (I'm obviously not only talking just about Hordeculture).

One of their human friends was Omega Sentinel, see how that is turning out.

Krakoa is a mutant nation, and it's a young nation. They're just starting to create their trades, security and political relationships. The Council is temporary and it was needed to put things together quickly. Utopia had a significantly smaller population and it was more of a military choice than a full blown nation.

[Tycon]

Krakoa wasn’t founded on colonialism, slavery, or any caste system so I’d say it’s already better than America.

[Electricmastro]

[QUOTE=ARkadelphia;5010955]

Are they random blips though? Since the 1980’s, what percentage of 1616 books fall under the X banner vs non X banner. And what percentage of the villains in these books are mutants? And what percentage of those battled had human lives caught in the crossfire? I don’t know the answer to these questions, but I do suspect the overall effect is more than “a few random blips”.

And not to justify atrocities, but probably one of the worst things any mutant did to humans was the Sub-Mariner using Giganto in an attempt to destroy New York City.

[JB]

As long as children are still being hunted and kidnapped simply because they are mutants, why in the world should they open up to tourists right now? That's some wild **** right there.

[Electricmastro]

As long as children are still being hunted and kidnapped simply because they are mutants, why in the world should they open up to tourists right now? That's some wild **** right there.

Well, once again, how about the writers write the narrative in such a way that that becomes considerably less of an issue, going back to what Professor X said about there being more peace?

People keep harping and obsessing over all the awful things the writers have had humans do as if all the writers in the world are incapable of writing something different, but that shouldn’t prevent people like Hickman from writing something actually more nuanced and thought-provoking and interesting to read about all the same, old DoFP status quo be damned.

[JB]

Well, once again, how about the writers write the narrative in such a way that that becomes considerably less of an issue, going back to what Professor X said about there being more peace?

People keep harping and obsessing over all the awful things the writers have had humans do as if all the writers in the world are incapable of writing something different, but that shouldn’t prevent people like Hickman from writing something actually more nuanced and thought-provoking and interesting to read about all the same, old DoFP status quo be damned.

You're not wrong but we can only go on what's on the page. But yes, ultimately it's up to the writers.

[Jack The Tripper]

Well, once again, how about the writers write the narrative in such a way that that becomes considerably less of an issue, going back to what Professor X said about there being more peace?

People keep harping and obsessing over all the awful things the writers have had humans do as if all the writers in the world are incapable of writing something different, but that shouldn’t prevent people like Hickman from writing something actually more nuanced and thought-provoking and interesting to read about all the same, old DoFP status quo be damned.

I think that, considering we're very much in the beginning stages of DoX, it's likely that the society itself is still building. In my opinion it's understandable that they don't have much desire to let people in because it's still such a young Nation/Culture, unsure of itself still. In regards to the fact that it's up to the writers - you're obviously correct - but this idea has always been about moving mutants on to the most likely/interesting step. I personally enjoy this stuff because I feel like it's united Mutants as a culture/group, and has ignored the idea of assimilating into human culture, obviously mirroring the idea that many minorities have to adhere/adjust to the overwhelmingly white/hetero/patriarchal system we have in a large part of the world. I also think the idea of mutants welcoming humans has been done as many times (if not close to) as the opposite. I think Hickman's approach is actually quite nuanced (the stuff with Orchis, Mystique, and Moira in particular) and I think as time goes on we'll get even more hints at humanity's reaction(s) to Krakoa. I think, no matter our individual opinions, we'll have to see where this run goes in order to really have a good sense of its successes and failings!

I'm definitely enjoying the ride so far though.

[JB]

I think that, considering we're very much in the beginning stages of DoX, it's likely that the society itself is still building. In my opinion it's understandable that they don't have much desire to let people in because it's still such a young Nation/Culture, unsure of itself still. In regards to the fact that it's up to the writers - you're obviously correct - but this idea has always been about moving mutants on to the most likely/interesting step. I personally enjoy this stuff because I feel like it's united Mutants as a culture/group, and has ignored the idea of assimilating into human culture, obviously mirroring the idea that many minorities have to adhere/adjust to the overwhelmingly white/hetero/patriarchal system we have in a large part of the world. I also think the idea of mutants welcoming humans has been done as many times (if not close to) as the opposite. I think Hickman's approach is actually quite nuanced (the stuff with Orchis, Mystique, and Moira in particular) and I think as time goes on we'll get even more hints at humanity's reaction(s) to Krakoa. I think, no matter our individual opinions, we'll have to see where this run goes in order to really have a good sense of its successes and failings!

I'm definitely enjoying the ride so far though.

Well said, Jack. It's all about the ride.

[Electricmastro]

You're not wrong but we can only go on what's on the page. But yes, ultimately it's up to the writers.

And once again I say, if it turns out that humans in the Marvel Universe are incapable of having any sort of peace with mutants and getting better by the writers’ design, then fine, I’ll accept that as being the writers’ intention. But if people are gonna try to tell me that that intention is meant to symbolize the real world in regards to the idea that black people and white people are objectively incapable of getting along together as respected equals no matter what, as well as other similar situations, then let’s just say that I’m sure that the writers will have quite a bit to answer up to.

[Zelena]

And once again I say, if it turns out that humans in the Marvel Universe are incapable of having any sort of peace with mutants and getting better by the writers’ design, then fine, I’ll accept that as being the writers’ intention. But if people are gonna try to tell me that that intention is meant to symbolize the real world in regards to the idea that black people and white people are objectively incapable of getting along together as respected equals no matter what, as well as other similar situations, then let’s just say that I’m sure that the writers will have quite a bit to answer up to.

Such claims would be disabused by the reality as relationships between 'races' are very variable depending on the country and on the era.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Shogo lives on Krakoa. The only other example we have had of humans needing an escort was the Ambassadors, one of which carried a weapon which he was willing to use. They're being cautios since, as I said, they have already had terrorist attacks by humans on the island and many deaths, including the death of their leader (I'm obviously not only talking just about Hordeculture).

They're not being cautious, they're being isolationist. If you're a human you're not wanted on Krakoa. You don't need to bring up how in the past mutant have been attacked by bigoted terrorist as though that is justifies anything Krakoa does. Its also hypocritical considering how many mutant super-villains have attacked humanity, including many of the people in the Quiet Council. The X-men have lived under that stress since forever and unlike in Krakoa, half of the people who wanted them dead were mutants themselves. Who are on the Quiet Council. Should they just throw all the mutant super-villains in the pit while they're at it? Since they are being "cautious." And where was this caution with Sabretooth or Apocalypse in Excalibur?

Shogo is a baby, and relies on Jubilee. On an island which is renowned for a culture that isn't welcoming to humans. But it's going to take years, if ever, for us to know how that'll turn out and I'm doubtful Krakoa as it is will be around anyway. He's a second class citizen in Krakoa, because he's not the "right" race.

One of their human friends was Omega Sentinel, see how that is turning out.

Omega Sentinel is a cyborg modified human with behavior that can be explained by being further along the process becoming fully machine, or hacked. We don't know all the details about why she switched, either. The X-men have had numerous human allies over the years, and until recently one of them was Moira taggert herself. If she wasn't retconned would you think she was an enemy just because she wasn't a mutant? Judging how people are trustworthy by what race they are is incredibly cringeworthy.

Krakoa is a mutant nation, and it's a young nation. They're just starting to create their trades, security and political relationships. The Council is temporary and it was needed to put things together quickly. Utopia had a significantly smaller population and it was more of a military choice than a full blown nation.

Krakoa is a sentient island which eats people, including mutants, and is an entity that is inherently racist against non-mutants. Krakoa, the nation, being young is not an excuse - it's used as though they're a powerless third world country who can't get their lights to work when they're anything but. The Council is not temporary, despite what Xavier says. This Xavier is not trust worthy. They've had enough time to do that and they've made their priorities clear in their choices, and it's lacking. They can get world wide trade but are worthless at gaining military allies even from other nations ruled by other mutants, they have technology (bio and Shi'Ar) that rivals the top nations in Nation yet don't have a functioning military or air force, they have a ruling council but no democracy, they're inclusive but only to mutants. Utopia was a reservation and routinely went around alienating everyone and had members that were ok joining forces with HYDRA and Norman Osborn against the Avengers. They don't have to get everything right but there are many holes in things where there shouldn't be since they should know better. Unless they're not who they claim to be, of course.

[Jack The Tripper]

Krakoa is a sentient island which eats people, including mutants, and is an entity that is inherently racist against non-mutants. Krakoa, the nation, being young is not an excuse - it's used as though they're a powerless third world country who can't get their lights to work when they're anything but. The Council is not temporary, despite what Xavier says. This Xavier is not trust worthy. They've had enough time to do that and they've made their priorities clear in their choices, and it's lacking. They can get world wide trade but are worthless at gaining military allies even from other nations ruled by other mutants, they have technology (bio and Shi'Ar) that rivals the top nations in Nation yet don't have a functioning military or air force, they have a ruling council but no democracy, they're inclusive but only to mutants. Utopia was a reservation and routinely went around alienating everyone and had members that were ok joining forces with HYDRA and Norman Osborn against the Avengers. They don't have to get everything right but there are many holes in things where there shouldn't be since they should know better. Unless they're not who they claim to be, of course.

A society is not built so quickly though - To make everything work perfectly, without fault, leading to an immediately peaceful co existence would be pretty amateurish imo: skipping the drama just to get to the happy ending. Krakoa isn't characterised as a third world country, it's characterised as a new Nation, with minority citizens trying to prove themselves as a culture. The goal of this new era was to get X-Men back on an interesting path, and do it rather quickly - having the build up happen in real time would have just kicked this current story down the road. Instead of giving us a build up to the story, they've decided to sprinkle bits and pieces in with the main story, revealing things as they go, and this is happening with Xavier/Magneto/Apocalypse and all the rest. In all fairness, I think that the attempt of having all omega level mutants on the island IS their Defence strategy. Also, Xavier hasn't been trust worthy for years in comics: he's an egotistical, morally grey intellectual with an agenda. Never trust Xavier.

The whole idea behind HoX/PoX/DoX is to unite mutants as a civilisation, so it's not to look at it as though the X-Men are teaming with the bad guys, it's more that ALL Mutants now have a chance to forge their own path without the interference of human prejudice - a right that they were not granted in any previous story. This will undoubtedly end in a way that shakes up the status quo again, but we shouldn't judge it on where it's going when we haven't gotten there yet ourselves. Once again, Hickman is already sprinkling lots of bits and pieces into these comics that define what led to this moment, so I think questions will be answered - he seems to be a pretty thorough writer.

[Sutekh]

Shogo is a baby, and relies on Jubilee. On an island which is renowned for a culture that isn't welcoming to humans. But it's going to take years, if ever, for us to know how that'll turn out and I'm doubtful Krakoa as it is will be around anyway. He's a second class citizen in Krakoa, because he's not the "right" race.

Eh, he's got a decade to go before even a normal mutant undergoes puberty and 'awakens' as a mutant anyway. Who knows what will happen in that time. Maybe he'll get an X-gene. Maybe he'll die. Maybe he'll grow up to be a mutant ally, a human who has mutant family and fights on their side using armor / tech created by Forge, or magic learned from Magik. Maybe he'll grow up to resent Jubes and her mutant peers for not ever being one of them, and go all 'Third Way' and take MGH and try to find other increasingly desperate ways to make himself a mutant, or a Novissimo, or whatever. Or maybe he'll just go on to a normal human life, despite all the weirdness in his childhood. (Probably the least likely option, since it's the least dramatic...)

Some future scenario with a teen/twenty-something Shogo showing up with tech/armor/weapons by Forge, and martial arts training from the likes of Wolverine, fighting alongside his mutant friends, could be fun. Everybody else gets grizzled 'old man blah-blah' futures, he's just a baby, his 'old man' future is 'finally an adult and kicking ass!'