How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[skyvolt2000]

To be completely honest, I think mutants are a pretty poor allegory for oppressed groups. People of color, members of the LGBTQIA+ community, women, and other such groups aren't inherently dangerous, and hating or fearing them is completely unjustifiable.

But fearing a mutant? That's understandable.

I mean, just imagine having to send your child to a school with a kid that drools acid, or having to go to work with somebody that fires destructive energy beams out of their eyes uncontrollably, or hearing that a mutant with the ability to create explosions is working at your local gas station.

Mutants are an inherently dangerous species, and the denizens of the Marvel Universe are right to fear them; though I'll admit that the level of hatred and dehumanization mutants receive is largely unwarranted.

Yet no one seemed worried when Gold Balls went to Miles's school in Bendis's run.

Nor are they concerned with Moon Girl at her school.


Also to some folks POC, LGBTQIA and others are dangerous.

See Trayvon Martin. Skittles and tea are so dangerous in black kids hands.

Meanwhile white kids who use schools as shooting galleries can be arrested without conflict.

Exactly, racist hypocrisy is to hate, for example, Nightcrawler and not Reed Richards.

Reed's inventions alone and what they attract from other universes alone should warrent at least a CPS phone call on his kids and the Power pack kids.

[Huntsman Spider]

Exactly, racist hypocrisy is to hate, for example, Nightcrawler and not Reed Richards.

Yet no one seemed worried when Gold Balls went to Miles's school in Bendis's run.

Nor are they concerned with Moon Girl at her school.


Also to some folks POC, LGBTQIA and others are dangerous.

See Trayvon Martin. Skittles and tea are so dangerous in black kids hands.

Meanwhile white kids who use schools as shooting galleries can be arrested without conflict.




Reed's inventions alone and what they attract from other universes alone should warrent at least a CPS phone call on his kids and the Power pack kids.

Pretty much this, both for the real-world context and the in-universe content. Yes, if Reed Richards and the rest of the Fantastic Four existed somewhere closer to the real world, they'd be on the hook for child endangerment with all the dangerous inventions Reed's concocted over the years. Come to think of it, there was even an arc back in the 2000s where exactly that happened, only they got Franklin and Valeria back by virtue of, "The kids will still be in danger anywhere else they go thanks to the enemies we've made over the years, so you might as well let them be with us because we can defend them better than you can."

[marhawkman]

Pretty much this, both for the real-world context and the in-universe content. Yes, if Reed Richards and the rest of the Fantastic Four existed somewhere closer to the real world, they'd be on the hook for child endangerment with all the dangerous inventions Reed's concocted over the years. Come to think of it, there was even an arc back in the 2000s where exactly that happened, only they got Franklin and Valeria back by virtue of, "The kids will still be in danger anywhere else they go thanks to the enemies we've made over the years, so you might as well let them be with us because we can defend them better than you can."

Also... there's the implication Reed staged the attack. It was a "safe house" that was conveniently unoccupied when it exploded while the kids were being taken there. Also there's literally no information about how/why it was destroyed other than an incoming energy bolt from no-one-knows-where.

[Zelena]

Exactly, racist hypocrisy is to hate, for example, Nightcrawler and not Reed Richards.

Well, Reed Richards never claims to replace the humans…
The thing is that the super-humans are individuals while the mutants are a group. Whatever a mutant says and does affects all mutants…

Reed's inventions alone and what they attract from other universes alone should warrent at least a CPS phone call on his kids and the Power pack kids.

I doubt that the danger caused by his inventions is that public knowledge.
What is doing investigative journalism? I heard it's in a poor state…

[Steel Inquisitor]

Well, Reed Richards never claims to replace the humans…
The thing is that the super-humans are individuals while the mutants are a group. Whatever a mutant says and does affects all mutants…

Reed also protected his family and the team by making them into super-heroes, and while he may not have been poor he was able to scourge what was available in a short period into a business and a heavily armed building/s and he didn't have an unlimited trust fund like Xavier did. This made Ben Grimm into a celebrity and beloved super-hero, something Xavier was never able to do with his own super-hero groups.

I doubt that the danger caused by his inventions is that public knowledge.
What is doing investigative journalism? I heard it's in a poor state…

The Fantastic Four do deserve scrutiny for putting their kids in danger but then again they've got the best defence systems in place and are hardly unable to protect their kids when their enemies come knocking. I don't think they try to put Franklin and Valeria deliberately in danger, they're just being kids. Just typical super-hero genre constraints and the X-men don't have the high ground on them when it comes to kids, Xavier was making child soldiers into FBI mutant hunters before they are 18, along with having other students being official X-men teams like the New Mutants and New X-men class. The Xavier Academy also was a hot spot for things like demonic invasions to the Juggernaut and it blew up every use every six months.

[Veitha]

Reed also protected his family and the team by making them into super-heroes, and while he may not have been poor he was able to scourge what was available in a short period into a business and a heavily armed building/s and he didn't have an unlimited trust fund like Xavier did. This made Ben Grimm into a celebrity and beloved super-hero, something Xavier was never able to do with his own super-hero groups.

That's called privilege.

The Fantastic Four do deserve scrutiny for putting their kids in danger but then again they've got the best defence systems in place and are hardly unable to protect their kids when their enemies come knocking. I don't think they try to put Franklin and Valeria deliberately in danger, they're just being kids. Just typical super-hero genre constraints and the X-men don't have the high ground on them when it comes to kids, Xavier was making child soldiers into FBI mutant hunters before they are 18, along with having other students being official X-men teams like the New Mutants and New X-men class. The Xavier Academy also was a hot spot for things like demonic invasions to the Juggernaut and it blew up every use every six months.

That's called your double standard.

[Steel Inquisitor]

That's called privilege.

You say that as though Xavier didn't have privilege of his own, it's not like the X-men were the Morlocks. Don't minimise what Ben Grimm went through because he wasn't born a mutant.

That's called your double standard.

If you completely ignore what I said before it.

The Fantastic Four do deserve scrutiny for putting their kids in danger

You think Reed should have been sending Franklin and Valeria into the field before they could vote?

[Sutekh]

I could easily see an argument that the Fantastic Four, and the Avengers, located right in the heart of a huge city, would feel *more* threatening than the X-peeps, tucked away upstate, miles from the nearest town. The biggest scary of all being Reed's constant unlicensed, unsanctioned, unsupervised *portal to the Negative Zone* right in the heart of midtown, from which alien invaders like Blastaar and Annihilus have attacked the city in the past.

The X-folk, by comparison, have nothing like that sort of threat looming over the city, like the sword of Damocles.

And yes, there are other reasons why the hoi-polloi are more panicky about mutants than Avengers or FF members (their teenager isn't going to 'wake up an Avenger' tomorrow, nor is the neighbors kid going to suddenly become a member of the Fantastic Four and blow up the neighborhood), so I get that there is *some* rationalization behind it, but still, it's a huge double standard, that Reed, in particular, and the Avengers, to a lesser extent, aren't politely told to GTFO of New York City.

[Veitha]

I could easily see an argument that the Fantastic Four, and the Avengers, located right in the heart of a huge city, would feel *more* threatening than the X-peeps, tucked away upstate, miles from the nearest town. The biggest scary of all being Reed's constant unlicensed, unsanctioned, unsupervised *portal to the Negative Zone* right in the heart of midtown, from which alien invaders like Blastaar and Annihilus have attacked the city in the past.

The X-folk, by comparison, have nothing like that sort of threat looming over the city, like the sword of Damocles.

And yes, there are other reasons why the hoi-polloi are more panicky about mutants than Avengers or FF members (their teenager isn't going to 'wake up an Avenger' tomorrow, nor is the neighbors kid going to suddenly become a member of the Fantastic Four and blow up the neighborhood), so I get that there is *some* rationalization behind it, but still, it's a huge double standard, that Reed, in particular, and the Avengers, to a lesser extent, aren't politely told to GTFO of New York City.

Reed is a mess. He and Stark have done a lot of bad stuff but it's been shrugged off pretty easily. Just look at Civil War or at the fact that they didn't even plan for their patents to be secured in case of their death or disappearence. Orchis thanks them.

You say that as though Xavier didn't have privilege of his own, it's not like the X-men were the Morlocks. Don't minimise what Ben Grimm went through because he wasn't born a mutant.

Xavier had privilege because he was rich and pretended to be human. The X-men kept being hated even though they saved the world because they were mutants. Ben had a resolution that mutants didn't have because he was human.

If you completely ignore what I said before it.



You think Reed should have been sending Franklin and Valeria into the field before they could vote?

Your double standard is that the FF deserve just scrutiny for being pretty much bad parents that constantly put their kids in danger, while the X-men are villains for everything else. But they had a good security system.

[Glio]

Well, Reed Richards never claims to replace the humans…
The thing is that the super-humans are individuals while the mutants are a group. Whatever a mutant says and does affects all mutants…



I doubt that the danger caused by his inventions is that public knowledge.
What is doing investigative journalism? I heard it's in a poor state…

Reed Richards built a prison in the Negative Zone and was part of the Illuminati and would still be less hated than Nightcrawler.

[Veitha]

Reed Richards built a prison in the Negative Zone and was part of the Illuminati and would still be less hated than Nightcrawler.

Helping with genocides is nice if you've got an A or a 4 on the costume.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Reed is a mess. He and Stark have done a lot of bad stuff but it's been shrugged off pretty easily. Just look at Civil War or at the fact that they didn't even plan for their patents to be secured in case of their death or disappearence. Orchis thanks them.

Leaving tonnes of details out of this to make Reed and Stark look like they're super-villains. Lots of super-heroes have numerous bad things over the years, and many instances of that come from bad writing, like both Civil Wars and it's why their fans hate those decisions they don't embrace them as the right choice. Why is it that the same reason why Krakoa does unethical things is the same reason writers wrote Reed and Stark like that? You're very forgiving when mutants do this. It's also hypocritical considering what the various X-men and Krakoa have done and that X-men Xavier and Beast were on the Illuminati. Nobody drags them for that in these discussions, but non-mutants? They're the first to get an earful.

Xavier had privilege because he was rich and pretended to be human. The X-men kept being hated even though they saved the world because they were mutants.

Where was this in your last response? Yes, there is more nuance but that shouldn't mean we should ignore that many mutants have privileges above others, that's why the FF vs X-men over privileges isn't black and white. They saved the world because it was the right thing to do, being mutants is secondary to that. And why is that only good when the X-men do it?

Ben had a resolution that mutants didn't have because he was human.

You think the FF are anti-mutant bigots? You're erasing the fact he had first hand experience at what being a mutant feels like, his appearance has caused him immense grief, identity, self esteem problems and discrimination.

Your double standard is that the FF deserve just scrutiny for being pretty much bad parents that constantly put their kids in danger, while the X-men are villains for everything else. But they had a good security system.

Your double standard complains only make sense if you think I think the FF doing that was good when I wasn't, strangely the fact the X-men are drafting underage super soldiers don't merit any complaint - that is a double standard. I never said the X-men were villains for what they did, all I said was that they didn't have the moral high ground. Why would jump to them being "villains" from that? They both have great security systems.

I agree with Sutekh.

Helping with genocides is nice if you've got an A or a 4 on the costume.

The same Illuminati that had Beast and Xavier on it, and Krkao is built on people who make genocides happen: like Selene and Apocalypse.

[Veitha]

Leaving tonnes of details out of this to make Reed and Stark look like they're super-villains. Lots of super-heroes have numerous bad things over the years, and many instances of that come from bad writing, like both Civil Wars and it's why their fans hate those decisions they don't embrace them as the right choice. Why is it that the same reason why Krakoa does unethical things is the same reason writers wrote Reed and Stark like that? You're very forgiving when mutants do this. It's also hypocritical considering what the various X-men and Krakoa have done and that X-men Xavier and Beast were on the Illuminati. Nobody drags them for that in these discussions, but non-mutants? They're the first to get an earful.

Oh look at you acknowledging that details matter! #growth. Do you want to start talking about villains on Krakoa without ignoring details, then?

In-universe, Stark and Reed never face consequences, while the X-Men are pretty much hated regardless, and the superhero community is quick to go against them or throw them into prison. None of the Illuminati faced consequences about the Incursions stuff, except for maybe Namor (oh look at that, a mutant!). Nor did Reed or Stark face consequences for the Negative Zone prison or cloning Thor.

Bad writing is a bad excuse, most of the stuff they do is consistent with their characterization. Stark, T'Challa and Reed pretty much think they're doing the right thing regardless and they never get punishement for their actions.

Where was this in your last response? Yes, there is more nuance but that shouldn't mean we should ignore that many mutants have privileges above others, that's why the FF vs X-men over privileges isn't black and white. They saved the world because it was the right thing to do, being mutants is secondary to that. And why is that only good when the X-men do it?

You're either not getting my point or ignoring it. The FF are celebrities because they've saved the world many times, the same cannot be said about the X-Men even though they've saved the world many times too. If they do something right, they're still disliked. If they mess up, they face harsher consequences.

You think the FF are anti-mutant bigots? You're erasing the fact he had first hand experience at what being a mutant feels like, his appearance has caused him immense grief, identity, self esteem problems and discrimination.

Well look at Reed conversion-therapying Franklin. They might not be bigots, but they're going to put their interests first at the end of the day, regardless of the persecutions they see before their eyes.

Your double standard complains only make sense if you think I think the FF doing that was good when I wasn't, strangely the fact the X-men are drafting underage super soldiers don't merit any complaint - that is a double standard. I never said the X-men were villains for what they did, all I said was that they didn't have the moral high ground. Why would jump to them being "villains" from that? They both have great security systems.

Oh c'mon, read your thousands of posts. You've been implying they're villains for a whole year. Don't backtrack now.

I hope you think the FF and the Avengers don't hold any moral high ground either, then.

X-Men had to train kids because they needed to learn how to use their powers in combat situation. No Purifiers attack the Baxter Building. Franklin and Valeria have been put into danger solely because the FF are addicted to adventure. They even sent Valeria to live with Doom.

The same Illuminati that had Beast and Xavier on it, and Krkao is built on people who make genocides happen: like Selene and Apocalypse.

And yet only the X-Men are the bad guys or are seen as acting strange by the superhero community.

[Zelena]

Reed Richards built a prison in the Negative Zone and was part of the Illuminati and would still be less hated than Nightcrawler.

The main part of my argument is that Reed Richards has become a part of the society, he has seeked its approval, its confidence.
Xavier has tried to do the same but he has failed. Mutants aren't this way by accident or because they want it. They popped up randomly in the population. It's a phenomenon, a trend. It has changed the world. Humans are facing the unknown. It brings fear. It's more revolutionary than Reed's tribulations.

Behind Xavier, there's Magneto, Apocalypse, …
Behind Reed, there's no one. And no ideology… except the idea that science can solve everything… which is already a very widespread idea.

[Glio]

The main part of my argument is that Reed Richards has become a part of the society, he has seeked its approval, its confidence.
Xavier has tried to do the same but he has failed. Mutants aren't this way by accident or because they want it. They popped up randomly in the population. It's a phenomenon, a trend. It has changed the world. Humans are facing the unknown. It brings fear. It's more revolutionary than Reed's tribulations.

Behind Xavier, there's Magneto, Apocalypse, …
Behind Reed, there's no one. And no ideology… except the idea that science can solve everything… which is already a very widespread idea.

Doctor Doom was part of Future Foundation. It really is not that difficult: they forgive him because he is a man, straight, white, a millionaire and human. If Nightcrawler forgot to pay for a few beers at the supermarket they would shoot him with a taser directly.