How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Electricmastro]

Scarlet Witch being Romani only gives context and adds back-ground layers to these characters as one way of defining them as different from their peers so as to make the stories more interesting.

And I find it interesting is that, mutant or not, Scarlet Witch is still a person with a Romani heritage who was persecuted in her youth, yet Hickman in House of X seemed ready to call her out as if she’s a villain because her mental breakdown negatively affected mutants in House of M.

[Huntsman Spider]

And I find it interesting is that, mutant or not, Scarlet Witch is still a person with a Romani heritage who was persecuted in her youth, yet Hickman in House of X seemed ready to call her out as if she’s a villain because her mental breakdown negatively affected mutants in House of M.

I think the logic in that is that having been persecuted and victimized in the past yourself doesn't give you carte blanche to then victimize others. Like it or not, and I certainly didn't like it, her reality-warping mental breakdown drove mutants to the brink of extinction, which radically shifted the balance of the conflict between mutants and humans in favor of humanity due to mutants being whittled down to a few hundred at best as opposed to overrunning baseline humans in two or so generations. What did human authorities do with that? Turn the X-Mansion into a reservation camp and turn a blind eye to, if not tacitly endorsing, terrorists like the Purifiers trying to "finish the job." That's not something people let go of so easily, nor should they, but in a world where so-called "heroes" can do absolutely terrible, horrible, even downright evil things to people that were once friends, allies, and comrades and then some years later get those actions swept under the rug as if they never happened . . .

[BroHomo]

...he’s a nineteenth century British aristocrat, he literally is a colonialist, lol and was literally an actual nazi.

Yeah you're correct...Where has it been shown that he supports the practice of gaining political control over other countries and occupying them with settlers. Well Yup

And I find it interesting is that, mutant or not, Scarlet Witch is still a person with a Romani heritage who was persecuted in her youth, yet Hickman in House of X seemed ready to call her out as if she’s a villain because

Do you think this was a calculated move somehow related to her heritage?

her mental breakdown negatively affected mutants in House of M.

You mean when she killed a buncha people?

[Electricmastro]

Like it or not, and I certainly didn't like it, her reality-warping mental breakdown drove mutants to the brink of extinction, which radically shifted the balance of the conflict between mutants and humans in favor of humanity due to mutants being whittled down to a few hundred at best as opposed to overrunning baseline humans in two or so generations.

Yeah, and after the hard time the X-Men went though in Operation: Zero Tolerance in the late 90s and Grant Morrison wiping out Genosha in the early 2000s, it’s as if Brian Michael Bendis couldn’t resist contributing towards the “apocalyptic torture porn” writers seemed to have a fetish in writing the X-Men in, with little to no responsibility of how they reflect minorities in real life and how drearily unapproachable it was getting, with how he went about writing House of M and giving out more reasons to dislike Scarlet Witch.

It’s just a really unapproachable era of X-Men for various reasons the more I think about it, despite how entertaining some people find it, I didn’t like it either and am once again glad for Hickman attempting to shrug off that torture porn that had no benefit whatsoever. Although I personally also found Hickman’s X-Men a little too cold and cynical for my liking, I still credit Hickman as I feel that he’s due.

[Devaishwarya]

You mean when she killed a buncha people?

...The most understated of understatements I've heard in a very long time.

HiX-Man specifically mentioned her "pretensions at being a mutant" (no fault of his...he's just working with what he's given) he said nothing of her being Romani. I've read that issue numerous times and not once is her Romani status mentioned.

[Steel Inquisitor]

These clearly aren't our Grampaw Claremont's X-Men.

Coming back to the OP...

The "minority card" is thrown around rather conveniently as if it actually means something. Thunderbird being Native American, Storm being Black, Scarlet Witch being Romani only gives context and adds back-ground layers to these characters as one way of defining them as different from their peers so as to make the stories more interesting.

Context. Those characters are real minorities and mutants, and Scarlet Witch status as a minority gets really uncomfortable with how X-fans react to her as if she weren't. Of course, even if she wasn't it has other bad connotations like sexism and killing witches. They may be fictional but they do represent those real minorities within fiction. It means something if you truly care about protecting minorities in the real world. Their cultures and ethnicities aren't skin deep. This is X-men, not Mickey Mouse. Its concept is built on condemning racism and oppression.

But unless the story being written involves and speaks directly to the genocide of Native Americans or the enslavement of Blacks or the persecution of Romani, for examples...that race/ethnicity marker is really not that important. And it becomes even less relevant in the context of the X-Men when you consider that Mutants are made up of Black, White, Asian, Native American, Latinix, Indian and other minorities.

This isn't about what the comics are doing, this is about how people react to the comics. The mantra X-men upholds is that racism is wrong, not that racism against mutants are wrong. Mutants are a fictional metaphor in Marvel, the various cultures who make up mutants and what the metaphor represents are not. It's all relevant, because they're supposed to be people with depth in comics, like the real world.

Other than engendering diversity and to a lesser degree relatability, which are very important to the readership, you could mentally switch out the various ethnicities and it wouldn't change the stories being told. Yes, it would change some prominent characters like Storm or Danielle Moonstar, or Rahne ...whose origins are intrinsically tied to their development as individual characters but...MM, FotM, EA, EifE, these would all be the same because they are not constructed around individual race/ethnicity.

Moving the goal posts, this conversation isn't about Hickman it's about how people in the real world are responding to Scarlet Witch. The fact tour response has switched to flight mode in this discussion should tell you something about maybe some reflection on how you engage with minority characters in X-men merits reflection? Characters ethnicities being switched around is missing the point, it's about representation and many of those characters provide valuable representation for minority readers it's not window dressing.

Edit: Or at least it's not only what's on the page, writers don't approve of everything they write. Hickman may have made Sinister more comedic but it's like the Joker and we know Sinister hasn't changed everyone knows he's going to betray them. It's a relationship where both parties are using each other and it's going to end in tears. I don't get why people assume Sinister is progressive, people are objects to him to abuse.

Where-as, IRL...each race has its own definitive stories/mythologies, its own definitive history, its own definitive culture central to the life-stories being written whether on an individual level, a societal level or a global level.

Hence, the concept of a Mutant Culture.

This isn't about mutant culture, it's about how people respond to those characters in the real world. This isn't about having to choose between being a fictional mutant or the cultures, in the comics it's both. Storm doesn't stop having African heritage because she happened to be a Krakoa citizen, it's part of her like anyone moving to a new country.

I was indirectly referring to the readership notion that Sinister's acquisition of Thunderbird's DNA is race/racist motivated. Or that Wanda being Romani has any relevance to her being vilified for M-Day.

Because any mutant wouldn't like their mutant gene taken from their bodies without consent by a super-villain known for not acknowledging consent and Scarlet With heritage does put her "haters" in a bad spot when they over react. When people hate on her more than the Victorian Englishman who kidnaps homeless people to experiment on them it gets mighty awkward.

I would say that Sinister chose TB's DNA because it is premium genetic material, nothing more...and consider, if he is that racist why inject himself with the genetic material of a mutant who would otherwise be considered physically or racially "inferior"?

Sinister is a villain I'm not sure why anyone would say he's not racist. Kind of like Sebastian Shaw. Sinister's informed by growing up as an aristocrat in the Victorian era and loves going back to that time period, as shown in London Sinister. Remember, even back in the Victorian era Sinister was seen as a monster by society. Racists exploit the bodies of the marginalised groups they hate, they can still find them attractive or "useful" and in Sinister's case it's taking the essence of what Thunderbird is as a mutant to take for his own. It's the ultimate metaphor for taking someone dignity, and a minority's at that. It displays how evil he is.

Not superseded by their Mutant Status, no, but...apart from definitive characters like Storm or Danielle, for example, who outwardly embrace and express their heritage/ethnicity on occasion, as written by Claremont to HiX-Man, Mutant Identity is what defines their place in the world, and even more so now for the majority of Krakoans.

Simply put, in-comics...Storm is not hated because she's Black. She's hated because she's a Mutant.

This is about how people react to them, not what they do in the comics. Storm's still Black in the comics, I don't think we're supposed to expect she isn't attacked on other angles, like her Black heritage or being a woman. Like in the real world, it all intersects.

Where-as IRL...being Black, Asian, Native American, Romani defines how the rest of the world will see you and treat with you. You are hated, oppressed, disenfranchised because you are a "minority".

People can be oppressed for more than one identity they have. Scarlet Witch hasn't been addresses as being a Romani here, people react to her like she's Sue Storm. Her heritage hasn't protected her from any anger from what I've seen. But like in the real world male and white villains get far less attacked for doing worse activities.

The idea that actual race which appears in X-men is an afterthought to the metaphor is very puzzling. That train left the station once Giant Sized X-men was published.

...The most understated of understatements I've heard in a very long time.

HiX-Man specifically mentioned her "pretensions at being a mutant" (no fault of his...he's just working with what he's given) he said nothing of her being Romani. I've read that issue numerous times and not once is her Romani status mentioned.

You mean, like Sinister and Sebastian Shaw? Both have been involved in genocides against mutants, with iconic stories (Mutant Massacre, Dark Phoenix, Days of Future Past). Yet they don't get the heat Wanda does.

He doesn't have to, because we know she's Romani and this isn't about Hickman this is about the readers engaging with his works. Hickman doesn't have to bring up her status as Romani every time he mentions her for it not to be an important aspect of her character. This is a higher standard than every other minor shown in the comics.

[BroHomo]

Those characters are real minorities and mutants, and Scarlet Witch status as a minority gets really uncomfortable with how X-fans react to her as if she weren't.

So you're saying she should get a special pardon for genocide because she's a minority?

The mantra X-men upholds is that racism is wrong, not that racism against mutants are wrong

Yes...dude we know..It'd just be nice for them to show that...or to explore what it means to be a double racial minority in the 616

it's about representation and many of those characters provide valuable representation for minority readers it's not window dressing.

Eh maybe in the chars first few appearances but if minority char dont contribute to the actual storyline what really do they add?

This isn't about mutant culture, it's about how people respond to those characters in the real world. This isn't about having to choose between being a fictional mutant or the cultures, in the comics it's both.

Uhhhh I think You misunderstood this entiere post

Because any mutant wouldn't like their mutant gene taken from their bodies without consent by a super-villain known for not acknowledging consent and Scarlet With heritage does put her "haters" in a bad spot when they over react.

LOL I swear I thought you were talking about Scarlet Witch. And honestly No one who thinks Wanda is a genocidal psycho is in any way, shape, or form contributing to the continued oppression of the Romani people. But here you're advocating she gets special treatment because of her racial background....sounds miiiiiiiighty suspect.

When people hate on her more than the Victorian Englishman who kidnaps homeless people to experiment on them it gets mighty awkward.

Now you know a tad of the awkwardness people feel when they encounter a fan/defender of someone who almost genocided a whole race of people

Sinister is a villain I'm not sure why anyone would say he's not racist.

Is every bad guy a racist?

People can be oppressed for more than one identity they have. Scarlet Witch hasn't been addresses as being a Romani here, people react to her like she's Sue Storm. Her heritage hasn't protected her from any anger from what I've seen. But like in the real world male and white villains get far less attacked for doing worse activities.

You think it should? that certain races should get different reactions from people. Interesting....lol Whats worse than what Wanda did?

The idea that actual race which appears in X-men is an afterthought to the metaphor is very puzzling. That train left the station once Giant Sized X-men was published.

Examples?

[Alan2099]

So you're saying she should get a special pardon for genocide because she's a minority?

She's more of a minority than Mr. Sinister is and he got a pardon for doing the EXACT SAME THING that people keeping wanted to condemn her for.

But here you're advocating she gets special treatment because of her racial background....sounds miiiiiiiighty suspect.

That seems like EXACTLY what the X-men are all about these days. If you have the right racial background, all your crimes are ignored.

[Devaishwarya]

Clearly my post was grossly misconstrued...deliberately, yet understandably so. (This is not about Wanda). Therefore it makes absolutely no sense for me to continue this discussion.

[Steel Inquisitor]

So you're saying she should get a special pardon for genocide because she's a minority?

It's not about having 'special privileges' it's about being fair and not hypocritical. The Krakoa villains, however, are being given that. They may as well have been super-heroes with the disparity between the two reactions of atrocities committed.

Yes...dude we know..It'd just be nice for them to show that...or to explore what it means to be a double racial minority in the 616

Knowing only matters when someone acts on it, otherwise it's just not caring what the message the X-men are sending. It's not like racism against real world minorities hasn't been explored in Marvel before, they've done it with Black Panther. I'd like more space devoted to doing that too, but you're assuming that's not happening anyway. Marvel may not been exactly like our earth but thinking they don't have intersectionality in their universe until someone writes about it is alarming.

Eh maybe in the chars first few appearances but if minority char dont contribute to the actual storyline what really do they add?

They give value to that minority's experience in Marvel, providing depth and insight from another point of view. A minority can't just turn that off in the real world, or comics. And why would you assume the subject wouldn't contribute to the storyline? Do you think the comics about Black Panther should have stopped examining his heritage after he met the Fantastic Four?

Uhhhh I think You misunderstood this entiere post

I perfectly understood it, that's the problem.

LOL I swear I thought you were talking about Scarlet Witch. And honestly No one who thinks Wanda is a genocidal psycho is in any way, shape, or form contributing to the continued oppression of the Romani people. But here you're advocating she gets special treatment because of her racial background....sounds miiiiiiiighty suspect.

No, they just act like the hatred against a Romani woman is ok while letting rich, wealthy super-villains get high fives. If they can't see how this is problematic, what happens when they react to a minority woman in the real world that they think is bad? I won't get into the sexism levied at her, and characters like Sue Storm. I'm not the one advocating special treatment, cannot say the same for those who support the P5. I'm not the one who's 'suspect' here.

Now you know a tad of the awkwardness people feel when they encounter a fan/defender of someone who almost genocided a whole race of people

I get that fine, explain to me why Sinister, the man in question I was describing, is ok getting a pass? That was him before he met Apocalypse. Why is it ok when he does an M-day event? What makes him special?

Is every bad guy a racist?

Only the racist villains, and Sinister hits all the boxes. And why should I give him any benefit over a doubt over someone like Thunderbird? The actual mutant who's a minority both with the x-gene and being from a marginalised group.

You think it should? that certain races should get different reactions from people. Interesting....lol Whats worse than what Wanda did?
Examples?

I think they should understand the context more, since it's not just about how they react to that character it's about every other character they are compared to. When a woman, and a minority, get more hatred directed at her than worse villains that is a sign it's not about what she did but who she is. Context. This is about fairness, and justice, not about who you like more.

Sinister trying to cold-bloodedly erase the Morlocks and anyone who knows about it, and unlike Wanda he has no remorse over it. That's just one example for him. The actual "Pretender."

[Zelena]

That seems like EXACTLY what the X-men are all about these days. If you have the right racial background, all your crimes are ignored.

This is not what justice is about, this difference of treatment…
I just feel sorry for the mutants that have been victimized.
But, once, I considered X-men as heroes. My heroes.

[Devaishwarya]

She's more of a minority than Mr. Sinister is and he got a pardon for doing the EXACT SAME THING that people keeping wanted to condemn her for.


That seems like EXACTLY what the X-men are all about these days. If you have the right racial background, all your crimes are ignored.

Very Interesting. Because, as a reflection of real-life minorities, or rather their place in society, that's exactly what happens. People of the "right" race get pardoned or more lenient sentences and are given more consideration, than minorities who committed the very same crime.

"fairness and justice" indeed.

So continuing this analogy...Mutants are the "right" race. Which completely flips their raison d'etre...for being hated and feared and persecuted for being different, ie the "wrong" race.

In HiX-Man's X-Men...
they encounter ALL the prejudices and problems of being a minority while holding the power and influence usually associated with the "majority".

Which...is a direct reflection on RL race minority issues. As a group of "minorities" with power, influence, and presence...are feared by the "majority" because they might one day outnumber and upend the established power differential. Operative word being "might".

I was wrong. The reflection has changed to suit the times.
Damn-it. THIS is how you write a political superhero book. I have an even greater respect and appreciation for HiX-Man's X-Men writing, now.

[Zelena]

I don't have more a soft spot for a dictatorship of a minority than I have one for a dictatorship of a majority.

[skyvolt2000]

So you're saying she should get a special pardon for genocide because she's a minority?
Yes...dude we know..It'd just be nice for them to show that...or to explore what it means to be a double racial minority in the 616

You think it should? that certain races should get different reactions from people. Interesting....lol Whats worse than what Wanda did?
Examples?

They can't because the excuse makers will say it's because they are mutants not a certain race. Even if the atackers didn't know someone like Snych was a mutant.

In Sam Wilson Cap America Rage got tossed in jail for what a white guy did and despite aid white guy being caught-Rage still got tossed in jail.

Hal Jordan butchered the Green Lantern franhise. Excluding a few lanterns-folks have pretty much fogotten what he did. He KILLED other lanterns.
John Stewart has been DOGGED by that planet that blew up on his watch for YEARS. Folks still come running after him.

[Electricmastro]

Very Interesting. Because, as a reflection of real-life minorities, or rather their place in society, that's exactly what happens. People of the "right" race get pardoned or more lenient sentences and are given more consideration, than minorities who committed the very same crime.

It has to do more with power, money, influence, etc. than simply with race. Hans Massaquoi was a black person living in Nazi Germany who was left unharmed likely because his dad was a prince whose royal protection extended onto him, and while Chinese people have had a history of receiving hardship such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and stereotyped under Fu Manchu, how a number of Chinese people in power have treated black people and Muslim people today in China shouldn’t be ignored either.

Even now, with the X-Men’s influence in medicine and economic power that they’ve built up, I wouldn’t be surprised if more humans sided with them, whatever personally animosity and disagreements they may have with them, as let’s just say that I suppose there’s truth to when it’s said that money makes the world go around.