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  1. #391
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I'll be honest, I never had an issue with whether or not humans are going to be replaced or not: I just take issue with the drastic othering mutants (who are still human) seem to be doing. Because, yeah, mutants are still human; they are of the same family branch. They shouldn't have to other themselves and doing so just seems hypocritical.
    Having Giant Robots designed to kill specifically you, collars, cuffs to be worn only by people like you, Death Camps reserved for people like you, religious cults zealously tryna kill people like you, Magic spells erasing people like you, ghettos like Utopia or 198 camp populated by people like you, Countries enslaving your body, erasing your mind, stealing your power that's only in the 616 Id say the flatscans have done enough to show how Other they consider Mutants to be... It's like telling a queer black brown person to tone it down to fit in. Iiiicky
    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Now pride in themselves and powers? Totally different--yes, they should be able to do and feel that, but that doesn't mean that they have to tear others down to build themselves up.

    That's the issue I take with this whole thing.

    (Also, to be clear; I don't think they're 'the bad guys.' I just think they're being a bit short-sighted at best and arseholes at worst.)
    how exactly bare they tearing down humans? Blowing up their homes? Sending huge robots to kill them? Making a few snarky remarks ?
    Back to bed
    GrindrStone(D)

  2. #392

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Having Giant Robots designed to kill specifically you, collars, cuffs to be worn only by people like you, Death Camps reserved for people like you, religious cults zealously tryna kill people like you, Magic spells erasing people like you, ghettos like Utopia or 198 camp populated by people like you, Countries enslaving your body, erasing your mind, stealing your power that's only in the 616 Id say the flatscans have done enough to show how Other they consider Mutants to be... It's like telling a queer black brown person to tone it down to fit in. Iiiicky
    how exactly bare they tearing down humans? Blowing up their homes? Sending huge robots to kill them? Making a few snarky remarks ?
    Back to bed
    Not even remotely my intent.

    As for 'tearing down others', really didn't mean that in the most literal sense. But yes; Snarky remarks, speaking discriminately of them (Polaris, Emma, Apocalypse, Shaw,), deriding them and painting them with a broad brush as was done to themselves. Challenging the institution is great and needed, but don't throw innocents under the bus with them, that isn't helpful.

  3. #393
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Well he killed his daughter kiiiiinda easy to gauge That dudes particular feelings towards mutants :/
    But If you're letting rumors have any say in whether you kill someone... you've already have strong Negative feelings about that someone.
    Mutants or mutation? It's something that happened to his daughter, he didn't face a group of person he didn't know, that he heard about through rumors…
    That reminds me the kind of behavior some parents have when they want to commit suicide: they kill their children first. What is seen as a terrible act from a outside perspective has been thought as an act of compassion…

  4. #394
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Not even remotely my intent.

    As for 'tearing down others', really didn't mean that in the most literal sense. But yes; Snarky remarks, speaking discriminately of them (Polaris, Emma, Apocalypse, Shaw,), deriding them and painting them with a broad brush as was done to themselves. Challenging the institution is great and needed, but don't throw innocents under the bus with them, that isn't helpful.
    Hmm after a buncha mutant kids were blown up on a bus, I'd say they earned mutants have the right to figuratively throw some humans under it lol
    Polaris and Emma are survivors of Genosha where couple million people were killed. The snark/contempt for humans could be expressed in more powerful and destructive ways, but to consider them short sided or 'Dickish' cause they are less than polite when speaking to/about Flatscans is...a lil more than kinda ridiculous
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Mutants or mutation? It's something that happened to his daughter, he didn't face a group of person he didn't know, that he heard about through rumors…
    That reminds me the kind of behavior some parents have when they want to commit suicide: they kill their children first. What is seen as a terrible act from a outside perspective has been thought as an act of compassion…
    Errr that sounds like a mis/undiagnosed mental issue or some other incredible stress. The father/daughter example from the book seems like a case of a person allowing fear....of the unknown, their own mortality, their children...the uncertainty of it overwhelm and consume them until they act out.
    GrindrStone(D)

  5. #395
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    At the moment its some mutants who are saying they aren't human. Its always been an argument in-series. Usually the bad guys would say things like "We're not human! We are better! We are the future! We are HOMO SUPERIOR!" And the good guys would say that no, we're still human. We just look a little different from you. Or something like that. Saying that mutants are just humans and normal people shouldn't be worried about them while at the same time talking about homo superior sounds like trying to have your cake and eat it too. That's more to do with inconsistent writing over the years though.
    Interesting. When you put it like that, it makes it almost sound like there are multiple Magnetos running around with their appearances changed to look like other characters. I suppose the many people that are praising Hickman’s approach are the sorts of people that really like Magneto.

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    At the moment its some mutants who are saying they aren't human. Its always been an argument in-series. Usually the bad guys would say things like "We're not human! We are better! We are the future! We are HOMO SUPERIOR!" And the good guys would say that no, we're still human. We just look a little different from you. Or something like that. Saying that mutants are just humans and normal people shouldn't be worried about them while at the same time talking about homo superior sounds like trying to have your cake and eat it too. That's more to do with inconsistent writing over the years though.

    Its a silly argument to say mutants are inevitably going overtake normal humans. Not even a few months prior in-universe they were on the verge of extinction. Everything unique about a mutant can be taken away with the prick of a needle. There's a reason mutants are gone or barely mentioned in most future scenarios in Marvel. To say nothing about how drastically that would effect the rest of the Marvel comics line.

    Xavier LITERALLY declared to the entire world that mutants are the future and are going to replace normal humans! There have been KKK rallies in my hometown where the speakers have declared that they won't let Jews and Black replace white people. When I say 'don't make the racists right', that's what I'm talking about.
    Nah it's just shows that when you really analyze it, mutants aren't a good minority metaphor. When these people say Jews and blacks will replace them they mean creating an artificial environment for that to happen. When mutants say they will replace humans it's because it's a natural process. How so? Well it takes education and policies to move the societal norms in case of the former, but it takes nothing but simply giving birth to newer generations to see the expansion of mutants as BOTH mutants and humans can have mutant children.

  7. #397
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    Nah it's just shows that when you really analyze it, mutants aren't a good minority metaphor. When these people say Jews and blacks will replace them they mean creating an artificial environment for that to happen. When mutants say they will replace humans it's because it's a natural process. How so? Well it takes education and policies to move the societal norms in case of the former, but it takes nothing but simply giving birth to newer generations to see the expansion of mutants as BOTH mutants and humans can have mutant children.
    I still don't get any logical answer to the 'Why' of Xavier's statement. He can think it but what is the purpose of saying it? It can only attract backlash and opposition to such a blunt affirmation: what for? Clever people can rationalize it the way you say but I don't think it will be the majority…

  8. #398
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    Nah it's just shows that when you really analyze it, mutants aren't a good minority metaphor. When these people say Jews and blacks will replace them they mean creating an artificial environment for that to happen. When mutants say they will replace humans it's because it's a natural process. How so? Well it takes education and policies to move the societal norms in case of the former, but it takes nothing but simply giving birth to newer generations to see the expansion of mutants as BOTH mutants and humans can have mutant children.
    artificial enviroment?
    GrindrStone(D)

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    I still don't get any logical answer to the 'Why' of Xavier's statement. He can think it but what is the purpose of saying it? It can only attract backlash and opposition to such a blunt affirmation: what for? Clever people can rationalize it the way you say but I don't think it will be the majority…
    I think it comes from a place of hurt. He knows his people technically are the next stage in evolution yet they've been denied basic rights and many times existence itself so his wording reflects that. And a shift in his rhetoric too as the result of that bitter experience.



    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    artificial enviroment?
    A homogeneous society could remain that unless you tweak societal norms and collective outlook towards the structure of said society.

  10. #400
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    I think it comes from a place of hurt. He knows his people technically are the next stage in evolution yet they've been denied basic rights and many times existence itself so his wording reflects that. And a shift in his rhetoric too as the result of that bitter experience.
    Charles Xavier throwing a tantrum? Isn't there anything coming from him that hasn't been calculated?
    Don't get me wrong… I don't say it it's a bad thing: if you have any responsability, you must take in account how you speak will be received. Charles Xavier has too much experience to indulging himself to express hurt feelings. He is a telepath: he can certainly understand why people behave the way they do. The only moments when he lacks insight, it is when he is personally involved…

  11. #401
    Mighty Member sungila's Avatar
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    Upon taking a break from this moment and reflecting upon the "mutant metaphor" in Hickman's HoX/Pox I've become increasing uncomfortable with the erasure of democracy and independent will among the X-Men and the greater mutant diaspora. With an apocalyptic predestined and therefore prordained authority of rite over an inherently doomed and dooming world of humankind, with a power structure founded in a made culture as a necessity against all threats, and a dogma of demonstrated 'super power' as proof and providence of a 'greater' race and etc and on and on there are just so many frightening alarming endemic problems with this New Dawn ideology and expression that it's become difficult for me to step back into the books at all.

    It's important and necessary that comic book creators be aware of the medium they work in and its history, its tendencies and structures and in understanding the past and its grammar, mastering a new language that is expansive and accountable to inclusive narratives, incorporating both silence and attentive listening into the spaces of reflection, curation and conversation.

    The fact is that making so much of what the X-Men are meant to be now political (Magneto's grotesque revisionist history, Xavier's scary 'but yet I still dream' face and the charts and rule books and amended histories, grammars, dormitories, concepts of found and/or chosen family, hope and also and even stripping away Moira's 'humanity' - pulling down the ideal of an endless fight, of social change being earned in heroic endeavors into fabricated ends, busting the lids and bursting tendrils light-ward....

    Hickman's turned the fight for a future for everybody 'anyway' which is the only inclusive fight worth fighting for (say, climate change for instance) into an adolescent, hard sci-fi dystopian cult book, borne out hard sci fi utopias circa 1950 complete with hard drinking pirates and colonial apologies - forging into multiverses with swords and flags...and a fake wind set into the one on the moon).

    I kinda understand why I quit East of West now...I kinda get the stupid push after push of 'Secret Wars' and 'Civil Wars' and enough already...comics have never been better, there are so many other comics...and so much good in a Paul Smith panel...complicated...but good hearted...and that good heart is in a lot of X-Books here and there...it's so nice when it's really there.

    Oh, the strict command of HoX/Pox...so sadly staunchly starchy white supremacy.

    I don't know, I don't know...

    Maybe Gillen isn't writing X-Books for reasons he hasn't even really known he knows...you know?
    Like how he wrote 3 in response to 300.
    Maybe he's not-yet-or-planning-to in response to Hickman's 'anytime he wants to'...

    I can be so ignorant. You know. Beautiful panels.

    I can be so damned willing to step back into a comfortable place without realizing how very uncomfortable that place is to my true self...you know how trauma and 'felt' pain can appropriate a body and define it's sense of touch and feel...

    How a new fashion can seem and feel so promising and right...when you really really want it to...and it's so easy.

    Well, you know 'crate training'...'no longer suited for re-entry into the wild' etc.

    There is a better world I wish the X-Men would fight for. It's already here, that future world, and rather than structure a cage why not try beginning with 'a place' outside...

    You know?

    The mutant metaphor.

    The one that we inhabit, it's changing and leaves us abandoned until we find one another...someplace, somehow, our powers don't fit until we spend time together, practicing and sometimes going into town or outer space...it takes being together...it gives up what that 'means'...and becomes meaning...being together.

    Hey did you know Claremont scripted that part where Scott convinces the Sentinals to fly into the 'mutant' sun...before his run...he scripted that...

    Hi.

    See you there.

    The wild unknown country.

    Not Mister Sinister...

    but the wilderness and nature (that island) this Earth...such a small place in the expanding everything...but it's everything...even the idea of 'expanding' is Earth unknown...and under threat.
    Last edited by sungila; 01-25-2020 at 12:07 PM.
    “The reason of the unreasonableness which against my reason is wrought, doth so weaken my reason, as with all reason I do justly complain on your beauty.”
    ― Miguel de Cervantes Don Quixote

  12. #402
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sungila View Post
    Upon taking a break from this moment and reflecting upon the "mutant metaphor" in Hickman's HoX/Pox I've become increasing uncomfortable with the erasure of democracy and independent will among the X-Men and the greater mutant diaspora. With an apocalyptic predestined and therefore prordained authority of rite over an inherently doomed and dooming world of humankind, with a power structure founded in a made culture as a necessity against all threats, and a dogma of demonstrated 'super power' as proof and providence of a 'greater' race and etc and on and on there are just so many frightening alarming endemic problems with this New Dawn ideology and expression that it's become difficult for me to step back into the books at all.

    It's important and necessary that comic book creators be aware of the medium they work in and its history, its tendencies and structures and in understanding the past and its grammar, mastering a new language that is expansive and accountable to inclusive narratives, incorporating both silence and attentive listening into the spaces of reflection, curation and conversation.

    The fact is that making so much of what the X-Men are meant to be now political (Magneto's grotesque revisionist history, Xavier's scary 'but yet I still dream' face and the charts and rule books and amended histories, grammars, dormitories, concepts of found and/or chosen family, hope and also and even stripping away Moira's 'humanity' - pulling down the ideal of an endless fight, of social change being earned in heroic endeavors into fabricated ends, busting the lids and bursting tendrils light-ward....

    Hickman's turned the fight for a future for everybody 'anyway' which is the only inclusive fight worth fighting for (say, climate change for instance) into an adolescent, hard sci-fi dystopian cult book, borne out hard sci fi utopias circa 1950 complete with hard drinking pirates and colonial apologies - forging into multiverses with swords and flags...and a fake wind set into the one on the moon)
    You know, I am very much like you, very puzzled by all of this. I keep wondering: what for?

    Maybe it will make sense at the end…

    When I was younger, comics were a more important media and the publishers took great care what to show, about the stories they will tell to young audience… it seems to be no more the case.

    In our days of great perils (like climate change but not only…), this vision of dividing people between 'humans' and 'mutants', it makes no good from my point of view and it contrasts a lot with the kind of stories the X-men were about not so long ago…

  13. #403
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sungila View Post
    Hckman's turned the fight for a future for everybody 'anyway' which is the only inclusive fight worth fighting for (say, climate change for instance) into an adolescent, hard sci-fi dystopian cult book, borne out hard sci fi utopias circa 1950 complete with hard drinking pirates and colonial apologies - forging into multiverses with swords and flags...and a fake wind set into the one on the moon).
    Mmmmmmmm no that’s definitely not the only inclusive fight worth fighting for. That’s just a way to shut up other very prominent social movements that have long plagued the supposed “great” countries of the world. Where the hell is the support for police reform or universal healthcare that includes trans people so transitions don’t have to come out of pocket or decolonizing settler states that brutalize the indigenous citizens like what Palestinians are going through or the destabilization of the judicial/ prison industrial complex that racially profiles black and brown bodies and essentially ruins their futures over nonviolent drug charges just to make income in for-profit prisons.

    Imma need y’all to actually invite inclusive people into your spaces and hear their struggles. Cause this colorblind shit is old and tired.

  14. #404
    Mighty Member sungila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Mmmmmmmm no that’s definitely not the only inclusive fight worth fighting for. That’s just a way to shut up other very prominent social movements that have long plagued the supposed “great” countries of the world. Where the hell is the support for police reform or universal healthcare that includes trans people so transitions don’t have to come out of pocket or decolonizing settler states that brutalize the indigenous citizens like what Palestinians are going through or the destabilization of the judicial/ prison industrial complex that racially profiles black and brown bodies and essentially ruins their futures over nonviolent drug charges just to make income in for-profit prisons.

    Imma need y’all to actually invite inclusive people into your spaces and hear their struggles. Cause this colorblind shit is old and tired.
    Isn't Hickman's exclusionary gated community kinda not this Tycon? I totally respect you taking exception to my definition of the 'only fight' over simplification and I am guilty of depressed 'tired' fight in general. Appreciate your passion and open eyed gaze at the actual conflicts where social change is active and happening. It's that I am vulnerable to buying into Hickman's X-Books because I want inclusion want to care for comics where I could be...but honestly Tycon, I am not here in Krakoa, I left that place in my teens, and personally I have to make harder
    decisions about my voice and body and ability to listen without making an Oblivion of my own need and right to be authentic and okay, 'here'...my home is not in this in this House...my X eludes me...that sit in my body that is the place where I am in relation to others...my own identity...maybe it will require a personal struggle to take ahold of something and somebody other than Nightcrawler in blue and sexy mutant....a Kurt I don't know yet...um, maybe a good GN memoir..maybe my Kurt looks like Pepe's Kurt...and that's hard to let go. Where is the unique individual in Krakoa? Is it safe to live outside the dorms and palaces? Is it okay to be unsure about myself in this House? That's me...and I dunno...i want outside..and charts trigger me to follow commands I can't.
    Last edited by sungila; 01-25-2020 at 01:41 PM.
    “The reason of the unreasonableness which against my reason is wrought, doth so weaken my reason, as with all reason I do justly complain on your beauty.”
    ― Miguel de Cervantes Don Quixote

  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Charles Xavier throwing a tantrum? Isn't there anything coming from him that hasn't been calculated?
    Don't get me wrong… I don't say it it's a bad thing: if you have any responsability, you must take in account how you speak will be received. Charles Xavier has too much experience to indulging himself to express hurt feelings. He is a telepath: he can certainly understand why people behave the way they do. The only moments when he lacks insight, it is when he is personally involved…
    Who said it wasn't calculated? Just because emotion took place doesn't mean the words weren't chosen with care.
    He highlights the fact that there was a certain approach back then, but because of things that happened, that approach will change. And humanity has no one but themselves to blame because now they will have to face the consequences. And I do believe he's more than personally involved. You know in psychology there's an idea that altruism is the final form of egotism. And since Xavier's goals are always noble and global, that makes a perfect case for his ego being completely consumed by collective affairs. I mean, he's one of mutantkind's prime ideologists.
    Of all things I didn't like about Hocus Pocus, can't say anything negative about that one. It was actually very well written imo.

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