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  1. #421
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I think the other part of this is the fact that the writers in Dawn of X are trying to show that the X-Men have to strive to protect all of those nameless mutants who were never able to defend themselves. It's like the thread about E is for Extinction, where it's pointed out that the people of Genosha were faceless. This is why the Krakoa era works better, because the X-Men are living there, several members of the X-Men are a part of the nascent government body. Member's of the X-Men are the commanders in the Krakoan military. The Krakoan secret service is run by mostly X-Men. Even with the smattering of villains thrown in the mix so far, it's really just Sebastian Shaw and Sinister that are trying to sabatage everything. Apocalypse wants to expand mutants into Otherworld, and I even think most of what he is trying to do is to get his original 4 back, because they were like family to him. The only criticism I have about Apocalypse is that he thinks everyone is expendable, but funny enough he was willing to let himself get killed too in order to complete the spell on the Otherworld gate.
    First of all, thank you for the effort you put into this. I really appreciate it. That was a nice, substantial and nuanced piece. I agree that the options available to the mutants of the world were few, especially after the X-Office allowed a decade of miserable genocide storylines. Where it seemed like the moment you went from the other MU titles to an X-book you entered into one where the average human is a hateful, fire breathing demon and mutant suffering is the only story the writers can create. However, during this time (and moving forward into the current era) is one where it became increasingly obvious trying to use mutants as a reflection of real minorities just doesn't work. All Krakoa does is make those comparisons even more ridiculous, because it doesn't withstand even moderate scrutiny.

    However, just because our heroes' people are beleaguered and hunted doesn't mean I'm going to soften my opinion of actions that, if performed by another group, would be seen as malicious, spiteful, and counterproductive. I'm glad you brought up that one of their apparent goals is to divert human innovation away from AI and Sentinels to avert the future Moira lived through. That makes perfect sense, because wow the mutants got crushed. But in the actual issues themselves, I'm seeing Krakoa and its leaders plainly uttering their intent to undermine and control all human institutions for the benefit of mutantkind. This type of saber rattling is what gets nations military R&D budgets swelling in with dozens of new projects and weapons systems. The actions on page are not matching up with the apparent goal of this Krakoa project.

    As for Excalibur unwittingly helping Apocalypse take over another dimension and install Krakoan ruler, that's unacceptable. It immediately calls into question Betsy's loyalty and fitness as Captain Britain, and Krakoa's true long term goals. I'm not willing to give a character like Apocalypse any leeway. Apocalypse is an evil piece of crap, his ideal future is one even more miserable than what we saw awaits mutants, and his plans and goals must be challenged at every step. Apocalypse and his 4 original horseman being reunited would not be a good thing for the planet.

    There's just this bizarre lack of nuance in the book. The humans are an almost entirely uniform writhing mass of vipers spitting hateful vitriol. The few human allies they get are killed off quick, and any others are suddenly revealed to have been mutants. In one fell swoop missing the entire point of such friendships and efforts at unity and understanding. I saw it mentioned earlier, but in the real world tremendous progress has been made in almost all fields of civil rights for minorities. But in the X-Men books things have inexplicably deteriorated worse than the early days. Going from other MU books with monsters, aliens, robots, little girls on red dinosaurs, etc... you find level headed humans of all temperaments, intellects, backgrounds, etc... Those data pages with the officer on the U.S. naval vessel observing Krakoa were a breath of fresh air and made me wish for more of that. Some people mewl, whine, and bray that these are mutant books and it'd be a waste: No. Humanity has been deemed the overwhelming antagonist of mutantkind. Because the enemy of the X-Men is an entire species occupying an entire planet, in multiple countries and multiple cultures nuance is required. Otherwise you just wind up with our heroes fighting an undifferentiated hateful horde. It's yet another reason why the mutants do a poor job of reflecting the struggles of real life minorities. Most people are not hateful and through some work will recognize the shared humanity of themselves and others. Otherwise no progress would've ever been made.

  2. #422
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    It does not matter what conquerors are offering those they wish to conquer. It doesn't matter what Attilan/Latveria/Atlantis offers to the rest of the world as leverage in exchange for them taking over their institutions and turning their governments into puppets that only speak what's beneficial for its true owners. If you replaced 'Mutant' with 'Badoon', 'Kree', 'Shi'ar', 'Skrull' it's the plot of your average malevolent alien invasion movie or show. And no, I didn't ignore Attilan gassing the damn planet for their own gain. Much like I didn't ignore Emma going along with that hideous Mothervine plan.
    Conqueror? Lol, The mutants aren't trying to conqueror they are adapting to system to be able to have in the voice policies that affect them. Krakoa is just like any other powerful country to use financial leverage for the benefit of their citizens. Selling it like they are alien conquerors is misleading when it more in line with say U.A.E and oil prices. X-men are playing the game now and it is equivalent of Democratic party going people in NY, California and Florida we are going pay for thousands to even millions of you move to middle america states for express purpose of winning electoral colleges. The people in control are gerrymandering and system is against you the only way to get a fair say is to take control of the system. Mutants have to real functional power because the world has proven over and over it is going to screw mutants. When have humans acted in the best interest of mutants



    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    It's not really surprising. Remember, Charles invaded the mind of everyone on the planet to announce to humanity they were now subjects of new gods and the world no longer belonged to them.
    This scene didn't happen the way you remembered


    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    The birth of Krakoa began with an antagonistic declaration, and its leaders (whose plan is to take over the planet and make sure everything is pro-mutant) clearly do not believe in peaceful relations between nations and blatantly expect war even during Krakoa's celebration.
    Now I remember why I don't talk about this much anymore you think how Krakoa announced itself mattered don't the things that happened before Krakoa was form and the things that happened after Krakoa was formed tell you why Xavier and Magneto expected War/attacks. It is frustrating talking about this topic because people talk about it without context to what is actual happening. Mutants are functional the equivalent of Holocaust survivors in a world where almost EVERY nation went hey we are going to try to wipe you guys out again with "a cure" if you don't understand mutant leaders posture to humans I don't what to say.

    I understand what Krakoa is I live in the US, talking about it in broad strokes is pointless just like the US. The US is one of first countries to send aide into other countries,US is also country that has invade countries and bomb regular citizen to point that they hate the US and become terrorist. US is beacon of Democracy and also has children lock up in cages. This topic is more complex and people shouldn't try to paint it into being one thing. Krakoa has a lot of those elements as well it simple not Good and Evil discussion. Krakoa is not X-men, Mutantkind is not the X-men even though Krakoa and mutantkind is made up of a lot of the X-men and comic line is called the X-men. It is okay that Krakoa and Mutantkind aren't meeting all the standards of morally right superhero team.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 01-26-2020 at 12:31 AM.

  3. #423
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Conqueror? Lol, The mutants aren't trying to conqueror they are adapting to system to be able to have in the voice policies that affect them. Krakoa is just like any other powerful country to use financial leverage for the benefit of their citizens. Selling it like they are alien conquerors is misleading when it more in line with say U.A.E and oil prices. X-men are playing the game now and it is equivalent of Democratic party going people in NY, California and Florida we are going pay for thousands to even millions of you move to middle america states for express purpose of winning electoral colleges. The people in control are gerrymandering and system is against you the only way to get a fair say is to take control of the system. Mutants have to real functional power because the world has proven over and over it is going to screw mutants. When have humans acted in the best interest of mutants.
    You can try to sugar coat it all you want, between Charles declaration of Krakoa to the world and Magneto clearly dictating their intent during the Davos issue it's definitely not a benevolent move. It's the type of thing you hear out of Doom, Stevil, or other conquerors. The world being corrupt does not make it just that you engage in corrupt actions, no matter what misery or discrimination you've suffered.

    This scene didn't happen the way you remembered
    Considering people didn't individually invite Charles in, I'm not in the wrong. Though the character does have a history of this type of behavior, so it's in character at least.



    Know I remember why I don't talk about this much anymore you think how Krakoa announced itself mattered don't the things that happened before Krakoa was form and the things that happened after Krakoa was formed tell you why Xavier and Magneto expected War/attacks. It is frustrating talking about this topic because people talk about it without context to what is actual happening. Mutants are functional the equivalent of Holocaust survivors in a world where almost EVERY nation went hey we are going to try to wipe you guys out again with "a cure" if you don't understand mutant leaders posture to humans I don't what to say.
    You do know they could make Krakoa undetectable to the rest of the world, right? Krakoa could easily have been the safe place they rightly deserved after all the abuse and extermination, where Kate and the other X-Men bring fleeing mutants to. Instead the country exists as a launch pad for politically undermining humanity for the express purpose of installing pro-mutant powers around the world. That is a completely different thing from a safe place. This would be especially upsetting for any democratic countries, for example.

  4. #424
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    "How much has the X-men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?"

    If Charles Xavier is one of the mutantkind's prime ideologists, his stance has certainly changed over time…
    It starts by "the rest of humanity may see you as different, but you're not. They may fear you, attack you but it's up to you to show that you are exactly like them, in everything that matters…" to "the rest of humanity is right, you are not like them, in fact you aren't even human, you are better and you must be proud of that".

    Charles Xavier was a scientist. Being a mutant for him, at least before, had a scientific definition, not a social one. (For scientists, there are no 'races', only the human race). It is telling that during a long time, he didn't say to the world that he was a mutant (he was 'outed' by Cassandra Nova). It may be that he didn't want to have problems with the humans as he was seen by them as a human during all his life, but it can also be because he didn't accept to be defined by a word that didn't mean the same thing for him as it does for everyone else.
    I find Hickman's Xavier very out of character as I find Magneto out of character too…

    I don't know what Hickman has in mind but I agree with a poster that said 'this is poison': this 'we are different of them, we are better'… it's the little music that precedes civil wars, it has nothing to do with the natural desire to live in safety and in peace… And I don't understand how the X-men, long-standing heroes, could be the name of that.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  5. #425
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    Xavier wasnt the one to make that statement, humans were the ones to treat mutants like monsters with monstrous treatment, humans were the ones to create specific ways to atack and destroy mutants that would never apply to humans, register them as non human, pushing them to slums like mutant town, creating a freaking smart ai to hunt them down to either kill, torture, brainwash or use as experiments to produce anything from weaponry to recreational drugs, or even keep as hounds.

    The seperation was not created by mutants, peace requires 2 participants and humanity as a whole in the marvel universe has proven time and time again, that its unwilling to accept mutants as anything but as an assimilated and opressed group, wich in turn forced mutants to band together just for the sake of survival.
    humans made sure that with 16 million mutants dead at the hands of their anti-mutant weapons, that a line seperating the two was branded.

    The only difrence betwen then and now is that mutants are simply taking a stand in affirming their right to exist, they are taking comfort and compassion in the only people that understand: other mutants. And in elevating themselves find pride and self love.

    Also the whole "is up to the minority to bend over backwards to apeal to the opressors, to be a perfect example while in the face of constant mistreatment, cause otherwise its your fault" is such a toxic statement, and quite frankly a croc of idealistic bullshit that is made to make people sympatize, but never realy chalenge or make you uncomfortable in your belief system, because turning the other cheek while bullied and opressed fucking sucks and just sinks you further into a hole of self hatred and desperation, and it shows your probably never went trough something remotely similar to even say that as if it was a good thing.
    Last edited by Ferro; 01-26-2020 at 06:10 AM.

  6. #426

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    You do know they could make Krakoa undetectable to the rest of the world, right? Krakoa could easily have been the safe place they rightly deserved after all the abuse and extermination, where Kate and the other X-Men bring fleeing mutants to. Instead the country exists as a launch pad for politically undermining humanity for the express purpose of installing pro-mutant powers around the world. That is a completely different thing from a safe place. This would be especially upsetting for any democratic countries, for example.
    Yes, of course they could have done, there's not exactly a lack of almost omnipotent deus ex machinas in the Marvel Universe.

    However, the status quo Hickman set up most also have support for engaging stories, otherwise it will not last long. So a need for conflict (this is a cape comic after all) is paramount.

  7. #427
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myownlittleusername View Post
    Yes, of course they could have done, there's not exactly a lack of almost omnipotent deus ex machinas in the Marvel Universe.

    However, the status quo Hickman set up most also have support for engaging stories, otherwise it will not last long. So a need for conflict (this is a cape comic after all) is paramount.
    Is it so engaging to tell again and again the same stories? The threat could have come from another origin: the opposition 'human' / mutant is not a prerequisite.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  8. #428
    Incredible Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    The seperation was not created by mutants, peace requires 2 participants and humanity as a whole in the marvel universe has proven time and time again, that its unwilling to accept mutants as anything but as an assimilated and opressed group, wich in turn forced mutants to band together just for the sake of survival.
    humans made sure that with 16 million mutants dead at the hands of their anti-mutant weapons, that a line seperating the two was branded.
    Humans made sure nothing because it was Nova who launched the attack, if we can blame humanity for Genosha then we can blame Magneto for the creation of sentinels.

  9. #429
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferro View Post
    Xavier wasnt the one to make that statement, humans were the ones to treat mutants like monsters with monstrous treatment, humans were the ones to create specific ways to atack and destroy mutants that would never apply to humans, register them as non human, pushing them to slums like mutant town, creating a freaking smart ai to hunt them down to either kill, torture, brainwash or use as experiments to produce anything from weaponry to recreational drugs, or even keep as hounds.

    The seperation was not created by mutants, peace requires 2 participants and humanity as a whole in the marvel universe has proven time and time again, that its unwilling to accept mutants as anything but as an assimilated and opressed group, wich in turn forced mutants to band together just for the sake of survival.
    humans made sure that with 16 million mutants dead at the hands of their anti-mutant weapons, that a line seperating the two was branded.

    The only difrence betwen then and now is that mutants are simply taking a stand in affirming their right to exist, they are taking comfort and compassion in the only people that understand: other mutants. And in elevating themselves find pride and self love.
    Eh, sorry but the Earth the X-books currently depicts is in sharp contrast to every other book in the line. Please note: They have less human allies than before, the ones that were human were revealed to be mutants all along, and humanity has a whole has been written too be even worse than during Claremont's time. Of course you're going to get 16 million dead mutants, viruses, the whole planet conspiring to wipe out the remaining mutants when the X-Men were gone, etc... It's all used to justify the X-Men having a struggle. The writers have decided all those marches, all those community outreach efforts, all those good relationships with human teams and organizations? Yeah, it means nothing, meant nothing, the X-men must suffer in order for stories to be told. This is what happens when the X-Office decides they want to turn all the mutant villains into heroes and friends, and humanity into the enemy. I won't argue this point further, this is a problem the writers and editors are creating.

    Also the whole "is up to the minority to bend over backwards to apeal to the opressors, to be a perfect example while in the face of constant mistreatment, cause otherwise its your fault" is such a toxic statement, and quite frankly a croc of idealistic bullshit that is made to make people sympatize, but never realy chalenge or make you uncomfortable in your belief system, because turning the other cheek while bullied and opressed fucking sucks and just sinks you further into a hole of self hatred and desperation, and it shows your probably never went trough something remotely similar to even say that as if it was a good thing.
    Don't put words in my mouth. The X-Men retreating to a safe place in the face of tyranny, bigotry, and outright genocide is not being questioned here. As I said before, if Krakoa was simply an undetectable island all the mutants fled to with the help of the X-Men, it would fit with the little cartoon about exclusion that was posted here. Real life minorities are not trying to economically undermine governments, financial educations, and the media to their own benefit. Real life minorities instead gain financial means to improve their situation while working through government to get legislation passed. The X-books have FLED from this classic approach. I just pointed out that if you look at Krakoa's statements and actions since then and swap 'Krakoa' for other factions like Inhumans or Kree? You get your classic aggressor nation with ill-designs towards humanity. That was a choice the writers chose. They chose to make Krakoa antagonistic, and this dovetails into another problem: Mutants being cast simultaneously as so weak humanity can slaughter them by the thousands the moment the X-Men blink, and so powerful that humans winning even one battle against them is a joke. I've never been a fan of stories where the abused and exploited are allowed to turn around and do the same to others. It's gross and suggests this weird revenge is somehow the goal of minorities. Nonsense.

  10. #430
    BANNED davetvs's Avatar
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    I'm always surprised when I see people say the X-Men don't work as a metaphor for real life minorities because they don't believe humanity could be as cartoonishly hateful as they're portrayed in the books. The ugliness of humanity is one of the most realistic things about X-Men. This is the same species that perpetuates various systems of bigotry and is responsible for the Holocaust, Transatlantic Slave Trade, and numerous other human rights atrocities based on "differences" between groups.

  11. #431
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    I'm always surprised when I see people say the X-Men don't work as a metaphor for real life minorities because they don't believe humanity could be as cartoonishly hateful as they're portrayed in the books. The ugliness of humanity is one of the most realistic things about X-Men. This is the same species that perpetuates various systems of bigotry and is responsible for the Holocaust, Transatlantic Slave Trade, and numerous other human rights atrocities based on "differences" between groups.
    So the immense progress across the board in terms of human rights, civil rights for women, minorities, & the LGBT community are just ignored? The humans in the X-books are nothing like humans in the other Marvel books, and they're actually worse than humans in the real world. At least in the real world the plight of minorities has improved, even though there is a very long way to go for equality. When you don't want to have actual mutant villains, just turn humanity into a cartoonishly evil mass.

  12. #432
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    I'm always surprised when I see people say the X-Men don't work as a metaphor for real life minorities because they don't believe humanity could be as cartoonishly hateful as they're portrayed in the books. The ugliness of humanity is one of the most realistic things about X-Men. This is the same species that perpetuates various systems of bigotry and is responsible for the Holocaust, Transatlantic Slave Trade, and numerous other human rights atrocities based on "differences" between groups.
    If you consider that mutants are human too, then they have no choice than accept the human legacy, good and bad… as I do.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  13. #433
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    Eh, sorry but the Earth the X-books currently depicts is in sharp contrast to every other book in the line. Please note: They have less human allies than before, the ones that were human were revealed to be mutants all along, and humanity has a whole has been written too be even worse than during Claremont's time.
    We clearly aren’t reading the same X-Books because that’s just not true in the slightest. Besides the one human ally who was revealed to be an important mutant, there’s still plenty of allies that are helping the mutants out. That was just a subplot in the latest X-Force issues where Domino, Forge, Gateway, and Wolverine went to go rescue humans that were getting slaughtered for supporting Krakoa.

    So the immense progress across the board in terms of human rights, civil rights for women, minorities, & the LGBT community are just ignored? The humans in the X-books are nothing like humans in the other Marvel books, and they're actually worse than humans in the real world. At least in the real world the plight of minorities has improved, even though there is a very long way to go for equality. When you don't want to have actual mutant villains, just turn humanity into a cartoonishly evil mass.
    Please sont overestimate how much progress has been made. Being nonstraight and/or noncisgender whole also simultaneously being treated as a regular human in many countries is still a goal. There’s not chattel slavery or Jim Crow laws anymore but there’s still segregation and other forms of slavery that still take place, just now they exist in a way that works with enough plausible deniability and ingrained systemic racism.

  14. #434
    Mighty Member sungila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    That’s absolutely what it is, though. Institutions that try to promote more inclusive voices tend to also be prideful in the attributes of said voices. Hickman isn’t the only one writing the story. Howard, Ayala, Williams, Duggan, Zdarsky, Hill, Percy, and Brisson are all writing about the nation of Krakoa and the various attitude and personas that exist. Hickman is dealing with larger concepts but the notion that he isn’t writing about bodies is false. Quality of writing may be subjective but his first issue of X-Men showed Storm’s willingness to lift up the mutant youth, Magneto in his own way trying to give those same youth a new childhood instead of one where they aren’t getting shot or gassed or depowered, and Cyclops having dinner with his family.

    People have the same complaints that pride of Blackness or queerness or femininity is somehow promoting “supremacy” and drawing allusions to actual destructive movements like white power or straight pride or misogyny(-noir).
    Tycon, you know, um, there is something broken and askew in our line of communication. So much of what you're writing is important but I guess for me, personally, and I'm responding to the world that Hickman built for these stories, for me, even though you keep saying Hickman has somehow managed to break the mold he's actively constructing...I don't believe it at all. I mean, this is saying different not being different. Happens so much.

    I like many of the wonderful tiny-sized-giant-sized character moments he has scripted. (All the Kurt moments, the Illyana pre battle proposition, so much). I really really like a lot of what Hickman has done. It's this entirety, the framework and world building, this place he's built, this platform for the New Mutant Marvel U (hard sci fi is difficult for me anyway) I don't acclimate here...in this place...and the longer I'm in here...Hickman's Krakoan X-Men....the more uncomfortable I am. In a very familiar uncomfortable way.

    Are you familiar with Hauntology Tycon? I'm feeling that depression in HoXPox Krakoa. Beats from dead futures slay my heart pulse. And that's me, authentically.

    And I wish you could please understand that when you keep saying that I'm somehow doing anything but commenting on my own feelings of being excluded within this Hickman construct, about feeling hurt by the 'get over it baby' insensitivity that so often tests my authenticity (kinda like you are) instead of actually hearing to listening to me and I'm saying our back and forth suffers mostly because the in-between (Hickman's HoXPoX New Dawn) is such a different experience for me than I believe it is for you.

    With lots of respect Tycon. I'm very much a fan of your posts and presence here in the forums.

    Oh and also I am not talking about the quality of Hickman's writing. He's very talented and accomplished.
    I'm only talking about the non-subjective (well...that's) my own private experience in Hickman's X-Books where I can't find my chosen family. Okay?

    My own personal queerness. Fits and even supports the functioning of a found family, mostly in the continuous finding of that family...um. Fits, oddly but not forcibly? I don't have a chart for the directions.
    Last edited by sungila; 01-26-2020 at 12:10 PM.
    “The reason of the unreasonableness which against my reason is wrought, doth so weaken my reason, as with all reason I do justly complain on your beauty.”
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  15. #435
    Cosmic Sandwich Metal Sphere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    We clearly aren’t reading the same X-Books because that’s just not true in the slightest. Besides the one human ally who was revealed to be an important mutant, there’s still plenty of allies that are helping the mutants out. That was just a subplot in the latest X-Force issues where Domino, Forge, Gateway, and Wolverine went to go rescue humans that were getting slaughtered for supporting Krakoa.
    Yes, the convenient faceless, nameless humans who are employees of mutants. Before their human allies used to have names, faces, and relationships with the team. Now only the human villains get that. I get that they want to maximize the amount of panels our mutant heroes get, but come on.



    Please sont overestimate how much progress has been made. Being nonstraight and/or noncisgender whole also simultaneously being treated as a regular human in many countries is still a goal. There’s not chattel slavery or Jim Crow laws anymore but there’s still segregation and other forms of slavery that still take place, just now they exist in a way that works with enough plausible deniability and ingrained systemic racism.
    Please stop. I flat out said that despite the massive progress that's been made we're nowhere near equality for exploited, abused, and discriminated groups of people. The fact that we no longer have repulsive crap like what happened to Emmett Till or chattel slavery is a huge improvement that should be celebrated, even if the struggle continues for equal treatment and opportunity. But in the X-books there's basically no progress because this is a cape book and conflict is mandatory, and the X-Office has decided that a strong rogues gallery isn't necessary, just make a whole species the villain. So an endless conflict due to the medium and endless misery and discrimination due to the chosen villain. Is that really what you want when you go to read about your favorite characters?

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