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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Acting as if Emma Frost or Exodus represent the vast majority of mutants is more or less the same as presuming, on the flipside, that William Stryker or the Trasks represent all humans. The problem, however, is that mutants like the X-Men spent years fighting against the likes of Emma and Exodus for the sake of protecting and someday being accepted by the very same humans that Emma and Exodus felt entitled to trample upon and crush underfoot. How were the X-Men repaid? Instead of looking to the X-Men as examples of the good mutants could do for human society on free, willing, and equal terms, humans almost uniformly lumped them in together with the very mutants that they fought, writing them all off as dangerous and evil and undeserving of mercy, compassion, or acknowledgement for their personhood, thereby justifying their wholesale destruction.

    If mutants are going to be targeted by humans for total annihilation regardless of whether they side with humans or "fight for their own kind," then they might as well join together as a unified force to repel those that would destroy them, like humans have become a unified collective against them. Frankly . . . if you're at the point of deciding that mutants are all evil and dangerous, anyway, then why not have the Avengers take them out? Why not tear off that final fig leaf and have mutants just go all out against the human race? No more of that subtle, insidious crap about manipulating and exploiting humans' own institutions against them; just go full-tilt war on humanity. Really prove them right.
    I dont think we have never seen an united front against mutants in the MU. Krakoa right now is having problems with a bunch of losers with depower armors and yellowjacket. YELLOWJACKET ! an Ant-man villian. Do you call that an united front? If all the humanity was on board to use the heavy hitters , well they would be doomed.

    Not just now. After House of M they could have been easily wiped from the face of Earth or in the M-Pox crisis (Without Strange and and Wanda the school couldnt have been moved to limbo and Rogue would have died from the M-Pox) Is a bit tiresome hear the X-men blame the avengers about all their problems , specially when they have to take care of all the world not only 1% of th world.

  2. #482
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Its absolutely correct that its unfair and irrational to blame the regular animal-people mutants for the actions of Apocalypse, Exodus, etc. Those kinds of mutants have the worst of it both ways; they don't have the power to defend themselves while being an obvious target, and they aren't interesting enough for Marvel to ever give them a comic or tell their stories when it doesn't involve them dying. Even among mutant society they never end up in important positions. None of them are represented on the Quiet Council, and Apocalypse has always explicitly been opposed to such 'weak' powered people. Goes against his survival of the fittest schtick.

    Honestly, the X-men are kind of bad advocates for their own cause. Most of that is due to still needing to be an action comic. But their tendency these last few years to turn to their villains for help every time something goes wrong damages their credibility. Not to mention being more a paramilitary group over actual advocacy.

    I'm curious, when did humanity as a whole get to be so gung-ho about killing all mutants? It wasn't always like this in the Marvel universe. There was prejudice, but not 'mass graves' and 'mutant hunting giant reptile' hatred. Things have been trending downward, but even after House of M when there were almost none left there wasn't a concerted, official government response to mutantkind.
    Last edited by pkingdom; 01-28-2020 at 07:32 PM.

  3. #483
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkling View Post
    No one were denying them their mutant culture. Just their powers. Culture is literature , songs ,art , the history of a community. the power to destroy cities with your mind isnt culture, is a weapon.
    Cultural genocide or cultural cleansing-(d) Any form of assimilation or integration by other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures;

    Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given territory by a more powerful ethnic group, often with the intent of making it ethnically homogeneous

    Forced assimilation is an involuntary process of cultural assimilation of religious or ethnic minority groups during which they are forced to adopt language, identity, norms, mores, customs, traditions, values, mentality, perceptions, way of life, and often religion and ideology of established and generally larger community belonging to dominant culture by government

    Take your pick


    *****

    There is an interesting discussion about powers and genetics that X-men can provide but it is wasted because once again people treating everyone like they are same thing is stupid. X-men is entirely more interesting comic when it stops pretending that Cyclops,Surge or Rogue or even Blob or some others wouldn't benefit from not having their powers. There was an interesting discussion in real life that happened when it was reported that some scientists were working being able to modify genes that could fix genetically passed deafness in some humans. Which lead to some members of the deaf community talking about deaf culture being wiped out. Some of us look deafness as a defect while they have vibrant culture and live health productive lives.Question of who should make that choice and if that choice should be allowed to be made came up they are compelling legit arguments on both sides imo.

    You are okaying ALL mutants being wiped out because SOME mutants are dangerous. Since mutants has become a minority metaphor you can't treat mutation in X-men how it might be logical treated the message it sends to Jews or Queer folk is problematic. While it is still problematic it is entirely different discussion talking about removing dangerous powers and uncontrollable powers AND every single mutant powers forcible because ALL mutants are dangerous. I am fine with people saying mutants does not make for a good minority metaphor at times.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 01-28-2020 at 07:34 PM.

  4. #484
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    I'm not OK with all mutants being wiped out. I do think having a mutant cure around would be a good thing though. Only to be used on criminals or mutants who's powers are extraordinarily dangerous or actively hampering their quality of life. Not a government mandated requirement for them all. Hell, have the X-men be in charge of producing and distributing it.

    For me I see the effects of X-gene as less of an integral identity like being LGBT or anything. Its more like the difference between being double jointed or having a cleft palette. For some people the gene is a cool boon. For others its a potentially devastating illness.
    Last edited by pkingdom; 01-28-2020 at 07:37 PM.

  5. #485
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Comics don't allow for nuance at times, The X-line is famous for that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Rogue wanting her powers gone. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having countermeasures for a person who can blow up a city.

    But X-men comics rarely let us talk about these things without going to the extreme. America doesn't allow certain cough medicine or fertilizer to be sold because of people misusing them do people honestly think it logically possible for mutants to be around and some sort of limiter not be in place? Do people think any country will willing allow people to run around in costumes without oversight?

    Liberties are allowed for the genre, Teens can't drive car before 16 and can't drink and smoke before 18 but adults are letting teens who aren't trained under 18 run around and fight crime. Has anyone ever meet a 16 or 17 year old police officer? Less restrictions let these stories happen easier many of these discussions we having are because the genre does want to flesh out certain things.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 01-28-2020 at 08:28 PM.

  6. #486

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    Many wars have been fought with child soldiers.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  7. #487
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisinith View Post
    That's just wrong, and ignores the context of history. Fear of the "other" is one of the most enduring motives in humanity but is easily seen in US politics.

    In just about all of these cases the root case of the discrimination and violence was fear and the root cause of the fear was bullshit lies, and demagogues stirring up fear. Fear for your place and fear for your home. For people who've studied history or for people who've who's lived through it's like, racism, discrimination and intolerance in the X-Books isn't hard to understand, its depressingly easy.
    LAWWWD you're my new favorite...yet despite the distinct and relevant examples you've provided that seemingly makes "Mutant racism isn't realistic" some folks just ain't on here to expand their X-Conscience but dig into an X-Truth(with or without it having any factual basis) and refuse to budge...lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post

    You are okaying ALL mutants being wiped out because SOME mutants are dangerous. Since mutants has become a minority metaphor you can't treat mutation in X-men how it might be logical treated the message it sends to Jews or Queer folk is problematic. While it is still problematic it is entirely different discussion talking about removing dangerous powers and uncontrollable powers AND every single mutant powers forcible because ALL mutants are dangerous. I am fine with people saying mutants does not make for a good minority metaphor at times.
    YAS this post is sooooo on point

    Can we have a thread where it's just Kisinith and Killerbee911 laying Down some fact'sdropping knowledge on these fools X-Fans?? l
    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I'm not OK with all mutants being wiped out. I do think having a mutant cure around would be a good thing though. Only to be used on criminals or mutants who's powers are extraordinarily dangerous or actively hampering their quality of life. Not a government mandated requirement for them all. Hell, have the X-men be in charge of producing and distributing it.
    lol you killed argument in your first sentence
    Last edited by BroHomo; 01-28-2020 at 09:59 PM.
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  8. #488
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    Many wars have been fought with child soldiers.
    And most "civilized" countries follow Geneva convention and don't do that. Marvel universe has those same rules they are just ignored for storytelling in genre.

  9. #489
    Incredible Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    I have told you a couple times now that rational people would treat "dangerous powers mutants" with proper level danger and mutants who aren't dangerous normally. You think it is about level of danger and legitness of the threat, No it is bigotry leading the fear to treat EVERYONE in that group like they are a threat. The fear of "Magento"(powerful mutant) or "Cyclops"( uncontrollable powers)is not the irrational part. It is treating Cypher, longneck,ugly john,Celia reyes, Nightcrawler, Maggot, Colossus, Angel, Beast, Darwin, Wolverine,Thunderbird,Kitty Pryde, Forge,marrow,Sage,Husk,Lifeguard, Mystique,Domino,etc all like they are they are one in the same is the issue.

    The level of danger doesn't matter, The majority has amazing ability to individualize when they are the ones with issue but generalize when it is everyone else. Let this coronavirus spread a little more and you will see some people justify being afraid of all Asian people because "the threat is legit" and since you don't know who has it you have to treat them all the same way. That is issue the threat can be legit, but bigotry and cowardice is what would make you treat everyone the same when you understand that you should be treating everyone individually.
    I feel you are describing how things should be, which i agree, but i cant take away the degree of danger when in our world, when a terrorist attack happens, muslims are lumping together in the extemist group by racist or mexicans are treated like criminals, if you add the things that happen in comics, the mutants, the reaction would multiply.

    You are forgetting something, you are expecting that humans will be well informed about every mutant power, the fact is you cant know for sure what power every mutant posses, desinformation and feel of danger, is a terrible combination.

    The reality is that we dont know how our world react if mutants were real, but as soon some powers would be reveal, in my opinion a huge level of hysteria can be expected, there is a point when biggotry falls apart and is replaced for self preservation.

    Thats why many people think that mutants works best separated from the rest of the Marvel Universe (narratively speaking)

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    That is problem with Marvel we have those irrational fearing people treating mutants and superhuman differently which initial is fine BUT then we have those irrational hate fear people treating mutants like plague in a world with aliens invasions,god invasions,magic invasions, superhumans blowing building,etc. Real life has taught us those people would be quick to fear anything that doesn't look like them and the Marvel universe has had enough events where humans should be legit afraid of most superhero community because they make up most of the stuff that attack people. Skrulls attacked people but Hullking is walking around fine? Ultron attacked people but people are fine with Vision? Demons and magic events have happen and people are fine with Dr Strange and Scarlet Witch? Atlantis has attacked over and over and people are cool with Namorita? People of Asgard just finished attacking earth and people are cool with Thor and Valkyrie ? People are trying to sell us that irrational fear people who hate ALL mutants all of sudden isn't going to irrationally blanket fear stuff? People are trying to sell us that people in real life who see Sikh or Hindu man in a turban and would harass for being a Muslim are nuance enough to see difference between mutants and other superhumans. Superhumans can walk around comfortably when there is no real way of knowing who is a mutant and superhuman. And after 9/11 equivalent events in Marvel that superhumans just get a pass from the same people who irrational hate mutants.
    The problem with Marvel is that why do you care about Krakoa when you have monsters in your doorstep??, in the rest of the comic lines you have robots, alien invasions, mutates rampages.

    But as soon as we reach the x-men comics, the Mutants are the world problem, how?? every baseline human lives in a trippy nightmare 24 hours, at least in USA but is plausible that there are other heroes and menaces in other places of the world.
    Is logical to assume that if fear to the different is the norm, then every baseline human should lump together every superhuman or not-human looking being.

    In order to work in the MU, humanity at least should be divise towards Mutants, some mutants should be beloved or even had celebrity status, Dazzler for example, others would be beloved because superhero heroics, Storm, Jean, Beast, others less fortunate persecuted for how they look, making the irony that some beast-like mutants are famous but others suffer, finally mutants who are feared and fueled the fear towards mutants, Apocalypse, Sinister, Selene, Mystique, brotherhood ect..

    Also it would be realistic that if Mutants are important in the MU, some humans should mistake mutates for mutants, like in some Spider-Man comics, but this thing has been dropped and probably other lines dont want to be affected narratively speaking by the x-men.

    But in terms of cohesive universe, it would help alot.

  10. #490

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    2. Most mutants aren't WMD. They are about 13 mutants on the omega list , I would guess about 30 to 60 who fall in Alpha list aka the Weapons of mass destructions or deemed highly dangerous. Just for sake of your argument I am going to give you 1,000 Alpha mutants which is out of number 32 million mutants worldwide which is the highest estimate. Wouldn't you say 1,000 out 17 million or 32 million is a pretty small number? And you aren't going to find a official list of Alphas mutants that is higher than 30 or 40.
    I admit to not being on top of this, but how many mutants are there? After the Scarlet Witch did her "No More Mutants" thing, the number was 198 (or so). How can there be 32 million now?
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  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Hausler View Post
    I admit to not being on top of this, but how many mutants are there? After the Scarlet Witch did her "No More Mutants" thing, the number was 198 (or so). How can there be 32 million now?
    Yeah Genosha was the point with more mutants in the recent history and they were 16 million. And right now they havent ressurected all the mutants from genosha so they should be between the one million post decimation and the 16 million from genosha

  12. #492
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metal Sphere View Post
    Damn, this whole post but especially this line is dead on. The other heroes are either powered up humans, human creations, human-allied Gods or Aliens all working to maintain the world as we currently know it (the existing ethnic groups, countries, borders, etc...) in the face of alien/demonic/divine/mutant/cosmic/??? assaults. Even when they're seemingly publicly corrupted they redeem themselves in the eyes of the public. They typically do not work with their villains.

    A good example of the stark difference between all the other heroes on Earth and the X-Men was AvX's concept. The Phoenix Force, something feared and reviled in the cosmos, is intentionally brought to the Earth by the X-Men for the sake of restarting their species. A cosmic being that casually renders entire species extinct and destroys stars being summoned to the only home humans know in the Marvel Universe. Where each of those heroes has countless family and friends who'd be turned to ash by this unapologetic monstrosity if they let go unquestioned. Mutants were willing to endanger all Humans, all Deviants, all Atlanteans. All for the sake of bringing mutants back.

    It's that one line, that one difference makes a huge difference. Of course mutants like Emma or Exodus would be seethe with contempt at groups like the Avengers, they fight for a status quo that expressly denies them supremacy.
    So quick correction the mutants didn't summon the phoenix, didn't trust the phoenix and didn't particularly want it to come by. They were convinced that it was going to come, that they couldn't stop it but that they could try to influence it and manage it. The X-Men had also been told by Cable that if they didn't oppose the Avengers it would result in the end of all life on Earth.

    eea0e3fa1d687cc0b88ebaaa0ddc2fcd.jpg
    Last edited by Kisinith; 01-29-2020 at 11:35 AM.

  13. #493
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    That's the laziest thing that X-men keep doing over and over again. "We have to do X terrible thing or else BAD FUTURE!" Plus Cable has been wrong before. Hell, his entire reason for existing is to prevent the Apocalypse bad futures, and now he's working for him!

  14. #494
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    That's the laziest thing that X-men keep doing over and over again. "We have to do X terrible thing or else BAD FUTURE!" Plus Cable has been wrong before. Hell, his entire reason for existing is to prevent the Apocalypse bad futures, and now he's working for him!
    This way of thinking makes the X-men un-heroic: heroes follow principles not oracles.

    It's like these antique stories: eventually, you end with the future you fight hard to avoid.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  15. #495
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    That's the laziest thing that X-men keep doing over and over again. "We have to do X terrible thing or else BAD FUTURE!" Plus Cable has been wrong before. Hell, his entire reason for existing is to prevent the Apocalypse bad futures, and now he's working for him!
    What were some of these terrible things the Xmen are supposed to have done to prevent...X terrible futures??

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    This way of thinking makes the X-men un-heroic: heroes follow principles not oracles.

    It's like these antique stories: eventually, you end with the future you fight hard to avoid.
    Errr Wasnt that the whole plot of the Inhumans/Avengers+the NuHuman Ulysses??
    Xmen should follow 'principles' not oracles....but thne why are some clamoring for the return of Destiny and other precogs to KraKoa? l
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