How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Huntsman Spider]

I would throw in, for the sake of argument and piggybacking off the quotes from Bryan Hill, who sounded like he had a lot of good if not great ideas for pushing the X-Men narrative forward, the question of what happens to nonmutant superhumans without mutants there to bear the bulk of baseline humanity's fear and hatred. Do they then start getting targeted by those humans they would otherwise protect without a second thought because without mutants as a perceived imminent danger to humanity's future, humanity starts thinking maybe its so-called protectors are more trouble than they're worth, what with all their Civil Wars and the havoc and chaos their battles with supervillains have wrought on everyday people's lives? Come to think of it, if the original Civil War (should have) taught nonmutant heroes anything, it was that they were only one bad day, one horrific tragedy away from humankind turning against them, too.

[Lucyinthesky]

I would throw in, for the sake of argument and piggybacking off the quotes from Bryan Hill, who sounded like he had a lot of good if not great ideas for pushing the X-Men narrative forward, the question of what happens to nonmutant superhumans without mutants there to bear the bulk of baseline humanity's fear and hatred. Do they then start getting targeted by those humans they would otherwise protect without a second thought because without mutants as a perceived imminent danger to humanity's future, humanity starts thinking maybe its so-called protectors are more trouble than they're worth, what with all their Civil Wars and the havoc and chaos their battles with supervillains have wrought on everyday people's lives? Come to think of it, if the original Civil War (should have) taught nonmutant heroes anything, it was that they were only one bad day, one horrific tragedy away from humankind turning against them, too.

I don´t remember well but I think this was Tony´s pov to support registration for all superheroes both to give a sense of control to the general population and as protection for them while Cap thought that would tackle their freedom to act and that it compromised their private life.

But as Hill said, if the X-men and mutants leave yes they will leave a void and that could be replaced by people being afraid of yet another dissater made by the superheros it would be an interesting story to explore.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I don´t remember well but I think this was Tony´s pov to support registration for all superheroes both to give a sense of control to the general population and as protection for them while Cap thought that would tackle their freedom to act and that it compromised their private life.

But as Hill said, if the X-men and mutants leave yes they will leave a void and that could be replaced by people being afraid of yet another dissater made by the superheros it would be an interesting story to explore.

It's not wise to use those as good examples of what Tony would think, given how out of character people can be written in those events. Expect someone to retcon that Tony into being brainwashed by Kang or replaced by a Space Phantom eventually.

[Lucyinthesky]

I think it made sense Tony would think so and be supported by Reed because they are both super heroes who have been known by the general public for years but I also think Cap had a point too. I also never said that was a good example of characterization, I was commenting on what happened during the first civil war. I also don´t think he needs to be brainwashed to think that way but I forgive him for the jail´s he designed for other super heroes,that was quite OC for him and Reed to do and just looked like the writers wanting to take the narrative to the extreme.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think it made sense Tony would think so and be supported by Reed because they are both super heroes who have been known by the general public for years but I also think Cap had a point too. I also never said that was a good example of characterization, I was commenting on what happened during the first civil war. I also don´t think he needs to be brainwashed to think that way but I forgive him for the jail´s he designed for other super heroes,that was quite OC for him and Reed to do and just looked like the writers wanting to take the narrative to the extreme.

I can forgive the jails, but the cyborg clone of Thor that he took part in creating and that killed Bill Foster, not so much, especially in light of him not suffering any lasting consequences or repercussions for his role in that. For all the talk condemning the X-Men for giving mutant supervillains amnesty under Krakoan law, it's easy to forget that nonmutant superheroes tend to give each other or "sufficiently penitent" villains free passes all the time, and they don't have the excuse of living under constant siege from human society's persecution and prejudice.

[Lucyinthesky]

I can forgive the jails, but the cyborg clone of Thor that he took part in creating and that killed Bill Foster, not so much, especially in light of him not suffering any lasting consequences or repercussions for his role in that. For all the talk condemning the X-Men for giving mutant supervillains amnesty under Krakoan law, it's easy to forget that nonmutant superheroes tend to give each other or "sufficiently penitent" villains free passes all the time, and they don't have the excuse of living under constant siege from human society's persecution and prejudice.

I agree in fact after this he became the main leader of shield and Reed just went back to live with his family. There was no reflection on their actions at all.

[Agent Z]

I can forgive the jails, but the cyborg clone of Thor that he took part in creating and that killed Bill Foster, not so much, especially in light of him not suffering any lasting consequences or repercussions for his role in that. For all the talk condemning the X-Men for giving mutant supervillains amnesty under Krakoan law, it's easy to forget that nonmutant superheroes tend to give each other or "sufficiently penitent" villains free passes all the time, and they don't have the excuse of living under constant siege from human society's persecution and prejudice.

It's a problem almost all Marvel heroes have had and been criticized for but the X-Men take it up to 11. The most vile characters the Avengers ever let on their team were Ares and Red Hulk and even those two are choir boys compared to Sinister, Apocalypse and Selene who don't have living under mutant persecution as their excuse. In fact, the Hellfire club once funded the Sentinels.

[BroHomo]

This writer covers a lot of themes that I think Hickman is invoking:

The X-men finding their promised land but still looking into the world they leave behind.

Mutant as a metaphor for minorities but also adolscence and growing up.

Mutants fighting injustice

Dang never heard of Bryan Hill but his thoughts/ideas for the Xmen sound awesome. Too bad I got NONE of that from the Fallen Angels series :/

the question of what happens to nonmutant superhumans without mutants there to bear the bulk of baseline humanity's fear and hatred. Do they then start getting targeted by those humans they would otherwise protect without a second thought because without mutants as a perceived imminent danger to humanity's future, humanity starts thinking maybe its so-called protectors are more trouble than they're worth, what with all their Civil Wars and the havoc and chaos their battles with supervillains have wrought on everyday people's lives? Come to think of it, if the original Civil War (should have) taught nonmutant heroes anything, it was that they were only one bad day, one horrific tragedy away from humankind turning against them, too.

Yeah Dude you're right..... I Think theyve shown Futures/Alternate timelines where superhumans were targeted after Mutants were neutralized (DOFP Earth X(?))
.

It's a problem almost all Marvel heroes have had and been criticized for but the X-Men take it up to 11. The most vile characters the Avengers ever let on their team were Ares and Red Hulk and even those two are choir boys compared to Sinister, Apocalypse and Selene who don't have living under mutant persecution as their excuse. IIn fact, the Hellfire club once funded the Sentinels.

Dude that was Sebastian Shaw....but that has little to do with the X-men.

You mean the Ancient God Ares? The bloodthirsty war God one? Ooooookay. Ares has a Sh!T TON more blood on his hands than Sinister and Apoc...Selene might be on par. But Still NOOOOONE of them compare to the body count of The Scarlet Witch.
Point.
Blank.
Period.

[Agent Z]

You mean the Ancient God Ares? The bloodthirsty war God one? Ooooookay. Ares has a Sh!T TON more blood on his hands than Sinister and Apoc...Selene might be on par. But Still NOOOOONE of them compare to the body count of The Scarlet Witch.
Point.
Blank.
Period.

Wanda really does live rent free in your brain doesn't she?

Selene has been feeding on people since at least as early as the Hyborian Age. The only way Wanda's "body count" would compare is if you think every single mutant she depowered died which we know is not the case and even the books weren't consistent with how far reaching the effects were. Wanda is just a convenient scapegoat X-fans can trot out when they want to distract from the monsters the X-men frequently welcome into their ranks. And none of them have the excuse of being manipulated while suffering a breakdown like Wanda.

As for Ares, when he joined the Avengers he genuinely wanted to change his ways whereas Sinister, Apocalypse and Selene only joined because from their perspective the X-Men admitted they were right. I also notice you and other X-fans have nothing to say about Sinister being a mutant because he stole the mutant gene of a Native American mutant. But then again, this fandom seems pretty forgiving of the atrocious ways in which poc are treated whether it's Kitty using the N word or the Betsy/Kwannon debacle that wasn't resolved until two decades later.

And no, the Hellfire Club funding Sentinels wasn't just Shaw. He just shelled out most of the money.

[Zelena]

I agree completely that bridges can and should be made to keep off a violent confrontation between people but a bridge needs to be build from both sides, not just one, for it to have a strong foundation, not just from the group oppresed, also you can build bridges but also do your best to make sure your comunity as a whole gets better oportunities, those two concepts are not mutually exclusive, both things can be made at the same time.

It is at this point that X-men comics fail completely: we have the mutants' opinion on humans but never the human's opinion on mutants. (except during Claremont's run, of course)

The humans are afraid, very afraid to point they can do horrible things to mutants but they are never asked to say what kind of peaceful relationships they could have with mutants, what they could except from them.

Even Krakoa, it's the mutants who say: 'Now, the rules will be like that and you have to obey.'
The mutants complained that the humans behaved like oppressors and then they behave exactly in the same way, by imposing diktats. Is it really the way to produce something new, something lasting?

But, then, Marvel is more interested by drama than peaceful conflict resolution.

[Lucyinthesky]

It is at this point that X-men comics fail completely: we have the mutants' opinion on humans but never the human's opinion on mutants. (except during Claremont's run, of course)

Even Claremont didn´t cover it the way you seem to wish it was covered apart from some pov´s from some people already aligned with the X-men and some antagonists like the purifiers and Hickman just had a few proper X-men issues, but already handed a human pov from the Embassadors on X-men #4 so lest see if he developts it from there.

The humans are afraid, very afraid to point they can do horrible things to mutants but they are never asked to say what kind of peaceful relationships they could have with mutants, what they could except from them.

I think Bendis did something interesting with Scott asking for support from both the humans and mutants left on his final issue, even Magneto was there and it was the first reunion of both human and mutants supporting coexistence, that was Scott´s revolution, but then came the inhumans gas, mothervine and worldwide persecution on mutants after the world thought the X-men were dead, as long as there are organizations focused only on getting rid of mutants imo the X-men will not advance much on their human/mutant coexistence dream by traditional means, that´s what Hickman´s run seems to be addresing.

Even Krakoa, it's the mutants who say: 'Now, the rules will be like that and you have to obey.'
The mutants complained that the humans behaved like oppressors and then they behave exactly in the same way, by imposing diktats. Is it really the way to produce something new, something lasting?

Sorry but I don´t see why is so wrong for you for them to develop their own laws in a country they are founding for themselves with only mutants being subjected to that laws, at not point have them tried to impose Krakoa´s laws on the world or on humanity

But, then, Marvel is more interested by drama than peaceful conflict resolution.

Yes, marvel likes drama, it´s a good thing I also like it

[Zelena]

Sorry but I don´t see why is so wrong for you for them to develop their own laws in a country they are founding for themselves with only mutants being subjected to that laws, at not point have them tried to impose Krakoa´s laws on the world or on humanity.

Okay, let's say it seems to me the mutants lack of finesse and diplomacy in their international relations and diplomacy.
But you know this run better than I do.

[BroHomo]

Wanda really does live rent free in your brain doesn't she?

Oh No she pays...horribly lol .

Selene has been feeding on people since at least as early as the Hyborian Age. The only way Wanda's "body count" would compare is if you think every single mutant she depowered died which we know is not the case and even the books weren't consistent with how far reaching the effects were. Wanda is just a convenient scapegoat X-fans can trot out when they want to distract from the monsters the X-men frequently welcome into their ranks. And none of them have the excuse of being manipulated while suffering a breakdown like Wanda.

I mean I only use her as an example when folks from the A try to throw stones on the X for dealing with 'Villains'. Lets just say her spell killed 1% of the mutants in each timeline thats still almost an infinite number of universes There hasn't been book that cancels out the issue Beast and Forge discover her spell was felt in multiple timelines/the entire multiverse. Why not use canonical facts to call out hypocrisy?
Ill admit Wanda's attempted genocide is a pretty big trump card, but only for defense. Her Fans make her an easy target tho. throwing shade under the widest maple trees, yet rushing to defend the multiple, multiverse mutant murderer.

As for Ares, when he joined the Avengers he genuinely wanted to change his ways whereas Sinister, Apocalypse and Selene only joined because from their perspective the X-Men admitted they were right.

Youre trying to speak truth the the chars motivations before the story is told? Not exactly accurate. The Xmen admitting various XVillians are righ.....t is just plain wrong. Heres why....
Sinister is obsessed with creating the most powerful mutant, by way of genetics. What issue did you see you saw and example any XMan helping him towards that goal?
Apocalypse...takes the 'Surival' of the fittest to heart, As weve seen AoA. KraKoa is hardly AoA's America. If anything it is Apoc who is bending his knew his knew, changing up his morality for Xaviers dream.
Selene just wants to be a God....thats just it she doesnt want to share it with ANYONE

I also notice you and other X-fans have nothing to say about Sinister being a mutant because he stole the mutant gene of a Native American mutant. But then again, this fandom seems pretty forgiving of the atrocious ways in which poc are treated whether it's Kitty using the N word or the Betsy/Kwannon debacle that wasn't resolved until two decades later.

Yeahhh I guess you dont frequent the XBoards very often....as there are appreciation threads and tons of posts keeping up with the current status of POC chars.What is there to say about Sinister's mutant reveal? He has the genetics of almost every mutant.
And no, the Hellfire Club funding Sentinels wasn't just Shaw. He just shelled out most of the money.[/QUOTE]
Actually it was Shaw and Pierce the rest of the inner circle were unaware.

It is at this point that X-men comics fail completely: we have the mutants' opinion on humans but never the human's opinion on mutants. (except during Claremont's run, of course)

I'm just confused as to what the point of having 'their opinion stated' be? what would it bring new to the narrative? Who is reading Batman and wishing they could get a look at the life of the 2nd richest man in Gotham...or the 3rd? lol

Even Krakoa, it's the mutants who say: 'Now, the rules will be like that and you have to obey.'
The mutants complained that the humans behaved like oppressors and then they behave exactly in the same way, by imposing diktats. Is it really the way to produce something new, something lasting?

lol Damn you think barring humans from a place is oppression?? I'm curious if would you ever go to a foreign country and just said fvck to its laws and constoms and do whatever you liked there? If your're driving on the wrong side of the road Do you cry oppression when arrested?

[skyvolt2000]

I'm just confused as to what the point of having 'their opinion stated' be? what would it bring new to the narrative? Who is reading Batman and wishing they could get a look at the life of the 2nd richest man in Gotham...or the 3rd? lol

Because other books have done it. Where they have shown the opinion or narrative of a character via someone else.

Batman had it done to him on Batman the Animated Series and in his book. One issue cover was drawn by an UNKNOWN artist- Todd Macfarlane.

Aquaman's 1991 series did it with a black kid with cancer looking for Aquaman.

Thor had it done to him with a black kid carrying his hammer looking for Thor-written by an UNKNOWN writer a few months before his career run on some book called Black Panther.

Wonder Woman (sort of) in her book back when George Perez was doing it.

Spider Man (sort) a black kid has his own image of what Spider-Man would be like especially as a black guy.

Shining Knight (sort of) in DC Showcase as yet another black boy writes about him. What is it about black boys writing about white heroes.

[marhawkman]

I would throw in, for the sake of argument and piggybacking off the quotes from Bryan Hill, who sounded like he had a lot of good if not great ideas for pushing the X-Men narrative forward, the question of what happens to nonmutant superhumans without mutants there to bear the bulk of baseline humanity's fear and hatred. Do they then start getting targeted by those humans they would otherwise protect without a second thought because without mutants as a perceived imminent danger to humanity's future, humanity starts thinking maybe its so-called protectors are more trouble than they're worth, what with all their Civil Wars and the havoc and chaos their battles with supervillains have wrought on everyday people's lives? Come to think of it, if the original Civil War (should have) taught nonmutant heroes anything, it was that they were only one bad day, one horrific tragedy away from humankind turning against them, too.

The Hulk has that to some degree, but the Hulk is also known for temper flare ups that level towns. But yeah, supers in general aren't always well liked.