How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Alan2099]

Indeed, there has existed prejudice towards people with certain disabilities, political affiliations religious affiliations, etc, and from what I’ve seen from real life, how far that prejudice destroys largely depends on those in power.

There was one issue issue where the Acolytes attacked a school and killed a bunch of people in order to kidnap/recruit a mutant there. They abandoned the mutant and left when they learned he had Down Syndrome.

[BroHomo]

There was one issue issue where the Acolytes attacked a school and killed a bunch of people in order to kidnap/recruit a mutant there. They abandoned the mutant and left when they learned he had Down Syndrome.

Also in a Christmas issue of Gen X Nanny the orphan maker laid seige to a school after human parents were protesting after hearing a Mutant Kid attended the school. But turned out to be just a regular human with a physical deformity

[Zelena]

I think what Zelena and some other posters here are looking for is a more nuanced take on the conflict between mutants and humans that doesn't paint all or most humans as virulently genocidal bigots with no justification other than base fear and loathing of anything or anyone "other."

A more nuanced take on the conflict between the humans and the mutants… yes, it would be good.
But painting humans in a more sympathetic way… no, of course not. It wouldn't make any sense.
Humans are humans, good and bad. Or neither good nor bad. You know them, you have daily contacts with them. Hell, you are one of them…

What is bothering me is that Marvel has created a new kind of humans in its stories, a one that the reader can distance himself from. We are far from what Terence said: 'I am human: nothing human is alien to me'. It has been possible because the stories are told from the mutant point of view.

Before, it wasn't annoying: there were the 'good mutants' and the 'bad mutants'. The stories were told from the 'good mutants' point of view. These mutants had human qualities: they were good-natured, loving, funny, supportive… It was fine because the reader saw himself as a good person too. These 'good mutants' had some flaws because the reader knows very well that he's not perfect.

Now, we have all the mutants, 'the bad' and 'the good', on the same island and the stories are told from their point of view. The author requests the reader to understand them, describing their actions, their motivations, their feelings. This bunch of people, as a whole, has one title of glory: they have a gene.
The humans, on the other hand, are depicted as monsters who are afraid of beings able to read their minds and casting mortal rays.
I think it's a little schyzophrenic.

[BroHomo]

A more nuanced take on the conflict between the humans and the mutants… yes, it would be good.
But painting humans in a more sympathetic way… no, of course not. It wouldn't make any sense.
Humans are humans, good and bad. Or neither good nor bad. You know them, you have daily contacts with them. Hell, you are one of them…

What is bothering me is that Marvel has created a new kind of humans in its stories, a one that the reader can distance himself from. We are far from what Terence said: 'I am human: nothing human is alien to me'. It has been possible because the stories are told from the mutant point of view.

Before, it wasn't annoying: there were the 'good mutants' and the 'bad mutants'. The stories were told from the 'good mutants' point of view. These mutants had human qualities: they were good-natured, loving, funny, supportive… It was fine because the reader saw himself as a good person too. These 'good mutants' had some flaws because the reader knows very well that he's not perfect.

Now, we have all the mutants, 'the bad' and 'the good', on the same island and the stories are told from their point of view. The author requests the reader to understand them, describing their actions, their motivations, their feelings. This bunch of people, as a whole, has one title of glory: they have a gene.
The humans, on the other hand, are depicted as monsters who are afraid of beings able to read their minds and casting mortal rays.
I think it's a little schyzophrenic.

Sooooo basically....you don't like being able to relate to the 'Bad Mutants'?!

[Steel Inquisitor]

Sooooo basically....you don't like being able to relate to the 'Bad Mutants'?!

Sometimes people don't like humanising villains who are mass murderers, terrorists and serial killers too much. That's why they're 'bad' and why the X-men fought them. Being the mutant equivalent of ISIS isn't going to get sympathy from everyone.

[Lucyinthesky]

So building and developing a place with free education, free healthcare and food and free housing for their population is the same as being part of ISIS? interesting take

[Steel Inquisitor]

So building and developing a place with free education, free healthcare and food and free housing for their population is the same as being part of ISIS? interesting take

Don't equate everything good with Krakoa with the super-villains they have allowed in. Remember why they were enemies of the X-men for so long before now. These characters have long, problematic histories - they didn't get created by Hickman in '20.

Magneto did this like clockwork in Marvel, and is still making grandeous speeches about mutants being gods and humanity being ants, post-krakoa.



Mutants like Magneto's fatal flaw is that they're the living embodiment of why humanity should fear mutants. They're the best recruitment tool groups like the Friends of Humanity can get.

[Lucyinthesky]

Don't equate everything good with Krakoa with the super-villains they have allowed in.

I didn´t, you are the one equating Krakoa´s actions with those of a real life terrorist group and that just doesn´t make any sense.

Remember why they were enemies of the X-men for so long before now. These characters have long, problematic histories - they didn't get created by Hickman in '20.

I know still they agreed to be subjected to Krakoa´s laws wich involve both respect for human life and alingment with the UN who has their own principles on human rights.

Magneto did this like clockwork in Marvel, and is still making grandeous speeches about mutants being gods and humanity being ants, post-krakoa. Mutants like Magneto's fatal flaw is that they're the living embodiment of why humanity should fear mutants. They're the best recruitment tool groups like the Friends of Humanity can get.

Magneto has been headmaster at the X-men school and has been an ally to Xavier after Genosha destruction, to Scott during Utopia and has been leading his own group of X-men for a while, a group dedicated to protect humans beings from Bastion or Ms Sinister and to train the O5 so they could come back to their own era. You are ignoring 20 years in real life of X-men stories to support your dislike of Krakoa.

Disliking Krakoa is all well and good, it´s hardly an ideal place but this doesn´t mean you have to discuss things that actually are not happening in the books.

[Huntsman Spider]

Sooooo basically....you don't like being able to relate to the 'Bad Mutants'?!

I think it's more like they don't like that the only normal humans that get any real play in X-Men stories are nearly all genocidal bigots against mutants, because they feel (understandably) that it reflects poorly on themselves as humans in real life, never mind that in real life, humans can be rather easily persuaded to turn on each other over relatively minor and superficial differences like skin color, nationality, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, etc.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I didn´t, you are the one equating Krakoa´s actions with those of a real life terrorist group and that just doesn´t make any sense.

I'm equating fictional terrorists with real terrorists. Did you think they were terrorists before Krakoa? Why do you think they fought the X-men?

I know still they agreed to be subjected to Krakoa´s laws wich involve both respect for human life and alingment with the UN who has their own principles on human rights.

Your implication is that Krakoa can only do those things with them being there, which is false, and that they're not terrorists. Krakoa is ok with mutants maiming people, however, and that was a contested decision.

Magneto has been headmaster at the X-men school and has been an ally to Xavier after Genosha destruction, to Scott during Utopia and has been leading his own group of X-men for a while, a group dedicated to protect humans beings from Bastion or Ms Sinister and to train the O5 so they could come back to their own era. You are ignoring 20 years in real life of X-men stories to support your dislike of Krakoa.

Magneto's progress didn't erase his actions, or those of others who are terrorists. Magneto past as a mutant terrorist didn't stop informing his personality or his past - and has been a weapon by Krakoa to intimate other nations into compliance on more than one occasion. Krakoa doesn't need Magneto be there to have free education. Mr. Sinsister is there, too. Is his presence necessary for Krakoa to have good things like free healthcare?

You didn't address Magneto's actions as a terrorist, which go back to the first issue in 1963.

Disliking Krakoa is all well and good, it´s hardly an ideal place but this doesn´t mean you have to discuss things that actually are not happening in the books.

I'm discussing the citizens of Krakoa, their pasts are relevant and inform who they are. X-men history didn't start with Krakoa.

[Lucyinthesky]

I'm equating fictional terrorists with real terrorists. Did you think they were terrorists before Krakoa? Why do you think they fought the X-men?

No, you are saying all of Krakoa can be compared to Isis hence why I said that doesn´t make sense. if the X-men decided one day " lest nuke every human or super human in sight like they did during the Axis event when they were inverted I would agree with you, but the opposite is what´s happening, their adversaries have to hold themselves to X-men standards if they want to live on Krakoa.

Your implication is that Krakoa can only do those things with them being there, which is false, and that they're not terrorists. Krakoa is ok with mutants maiming people, however, and that was a contested decision.

You mean like in X-force where they are fighthing militias from Orchis? That´s self defense.

Magneto's progress didn't erase his actions, or those of others who are terrorists. Magneto past as a mutant terrorist didn't stop informing his personality or his past - and has been a weapon by Krakoa to intimate other nations into compliance on more than one occasion. Krakoa doesn't need Magneto be there to have free education. Mr. Sinsister is there, too. Is his presence necessary for Krakoa to have good things like free healthcare?

You didn't address Magneto's actions as a terrorist, which go back to the first issue in 1963.

Magneto already got two judgments by humakind one from the US and one from the UN. Sure he could be send to jail by the X-men or be executed but he also has been killed in the past, a lot, imo he has been dead more often than Jean or in a coma and he´s more useful as an ally of the X-men than jailed on some prison and has clearly show his loyalty to the X-men in the past.

I'm discussing the citizens of Krakoa, their pasts are relevant and inform who they are. X-men history didn't start with Krakoa.

Agreed, still my point remains, Krakoa has put it´s laws and they agreed to be subjected by those laws.

[Zelena]

Sooooo basically....you don't like being able to relate to the 'Bad Mutants'?!

Aargh… no… that's not the point.

It's true that I'm not that interested in antics of egoistical maniacs with questionable hobbies. But: we, humans, are good and bad.
The mutants, these fictional characters, like the other super-powered beings, may have strange and awesome powers but they are good and bad too.

Since the beginning of comics, the good humans and the good super-powered beings, mutants or not, could relate to each other. What differentiated them was less important than what brought them together. It's a message of tolerance and fraternity. It's the way I understood the 'protect a world that hates and fears them': it's about feeling a kinship with humanity despite all the difficulties.
And the reader felt included in that feeling.

Now, in Hickman's run, the division is based on a gene, no more on morals.
For me, it's wrong.
It's like saying, I'm French, I'm good and you're American, you're bad.
Well, I don't know what to do with this proposition: I don't have a particular affinity towards nationalism.
More, I think it's a bit hypocrital not wanting to understand the humans' fear towards mutants. True, the stories are written from the mutants' point of view, it doesn't help, still… Mind control? Mortal rays? Toying with the geomagnetic field? There has been enough destruction along the years and the panels…

I'm not against Krakoa — except the name — if it's necessary. I just think it has been founded on a dubious basis.

[Steel Inquisitor]

No, you are saying all of Krakoa can be compared to Isis hence why I said that doesn´t make sense. if the X-men decided one day " lest nuke every human or super human in sight like they did during the Axis event when they were inverted I would agree with you, but the opposite is what´s happening, their adversaries have to hold themselves to X-men standards if they want to live on Krakoa.

I wasn't comparing all of Krakoa to ISIS, I made that very clear. We're not talking about the X-men, we're talking about the mutant terrorists in Krakoa. We can discuss the super-villains in their oaks without adhering very argument against them as if they were identical to Krakoa the nation and the X-men. Those aren't the same thing. Do you agree that many people in Krakoa are mutant terrorists?

You mean like in X-force where they are fighthing militias from Orchis? That´s self defense.

You're moving the goal posts, your original argument was that all the good things like were healthcare come from those 'bad mutants.'

So building and developing a place with free education, free healthcare and food and free housing for their population is the same as being part of ISIS? interesting take

Magneto already got two judgments by humakind one from the US and one from the UN. Sure he could be send to jail by the X-men or be executed but he also has been killed in the past, a lot, imo he has been dead more often than Jean or in a coma and he´s more useful as an ally of the X-men than jailed on some prison and has clearly show his loyalty to the X-men in the past.

Which is laughable, considering what he's done. The X-men aren't "drafting" anybody here, Magneto's not the Thunderbolts he's amongst the highest ranking government officials in krakoa - Xavier reached out to him. When people do crimes, especially continuous and large crimes with high body counts and destruction, it's not common for them to be greeted with open arms and used as weapons in diplomatic negotiations. He wasn't elected to this position, either. That type of thing is reserved for villains who run their own countries. Krakoa is, in theory, supposed to be better than this. People dying don't erase what they did in the past, and this logic wouldn't pass muster if we applied it someone like Cameron Hodge.

Magneto's loyalty to the X-men isn't reliable, the second he decides they're hurting his agenda he'll try to put them six feet under. Not that loyalty matter swan it comes to past crimes, that feeds into jingoism.

None of the requirements you said are how people judge terrorists in fiction or real life. Osama bin Laden could have cured cancer, he would still be executed for his crimes.

The X-men can have their orgies and great government programs, like are healthcare, without mutants who kill humans without any remorse. They didn't make a deal with Mephisto.

Agreed, still my point remains, Krakoa has put it´s laws and they agreed to be subjected by those laws.

We weren't discussing anything to do with the laws of Krakoa, we were discussing their pasts before Krakoa.

[adamTPTK]

Before Magneto, there was a man that was ready to move on, get over the past, to live normally with a woman he loves and raise a family he would love just as much. That until his daughter was burned alive. Even then he hasn't defected, he still chose to put his gifts where they would serve best so he joined secret services and became a Nazi hunter. And then when his hunt directly affected Operation Paperclip "assets" the secret service has deemed him expendable and murdered a woman he got close with... trauma after trauma after trauma, caused by the same kind of people, time after time after time.
I mean, those who consider Magneto to be a kick starter of mutant human division don't really know canon. When he tried to save his daughter, the "counterargument" of those that held him off was that she's a mutant too so no effort should be wasted on her. The Control told him they will use Nazis and mutants in their war against Soviets. The mutant human division was already on. And only then he finally snapped. Hell, why most of you conveniently ignore Weapon X, the most famous exploitation and dehumanization of mutants? Again, before Magneto.
Comparing him to dogmatic Jihadies is kinda laughable. Don't recall him kidnapping young girls or beheading the infidels.

[BroHomo]

Sometimes people don't like humanising villains who are mass murderers, terrorists and serial killers too much. That's why they're 'bad' and why the X-men fought them. Being the mutant equivalent of ISIS isn't going to get sympathy from everyone.

Hmmm While it 's obvious most people look up to or try to emulate the hero of a story . But the success of movies like Joker, Shows like GoT, WestWorld show us examples of how much these redemption stories are helping people. people are getting a real "pulled up by my "bootstraps" kinda story, where the lead...or main villain is starting from with setbacks in place.

Sometimes people don't like humanising villains who are mass murderers, terrorists and serial killers too much. That's why they're 'bad' and why the X-men fought them. Being the mutant equivalent of ISIS isn't going to get sympathy from everyone.

I wasn't comparing all of Krakoa to ISIS, I made that very clear. We're not talking about the X-men, we're talking about the mutant terrorists in Krakoa. We can discuss the super-villains in their oaks without adhering very argument against them as if they were identical to Krakoa the nation and the X-men. Those aren't the same thing. Do you agree that many people in Krakoa are mutant terrorists? [/QUOTE]
I believe there are some yes. But not as many as America.

Magneto's loyalty to the X-men isn't reliable, the second he decides they're hurting his agenda he'll try to put them six feet under. Not that loyalty matter swan it comes to past crimes, that feeds into jingoism.

How many times has Magneto betrayed the XMen?

The X-men can have their orgies and great government programs, like are healthcare, without mutants who kill humans without any remorse. They didn't make a deal with Mephisto.

THat kinda ruins the message....

I'm not against Krakoa — except the name — if it's necessary. I just think it has been founded on a dubious basis.

Awww Why?

I think it's more like they don't like that the only normal humans that get any real play in X-Men stories are nearly all genocidal bigots against mutants, because they feel (understandably) that it reflects poorly on themselves as humans in real life.

This soounds weridly interesting . lol

So building and developing a place with free education, free healthcare and food and free housing for their population is the same as being part of ISIS? interesting take

those Blue DEVILS!