How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Huntsman Spider]

Yeah, like if an alien race like the Kree, but even more hostile, invaded Earth to the point of not discriminating between humans and mutants and persecuted them all, perhaps one could convincingly see alliances, not like smaller ones like mutant Molly Hayes allying with the human Runaways, but perhaps on an even bigger scale with a few human politicians, even if they do treat it as “the lesser of two evils.” And while not completely eliminating prejudice, I could see that adding more conflicted feelings and complexities within many of the humans in the Marvel Universe, which could make for more interesting stories.

After all, it was the actions of the Beyonder is what motivated the human heroes and mutant heroes to work together.

Fair enough, and I'm hoping this is how the situation ultimately resolves itself or gets resolved, that as much as humans and mutants may vie over whose offspring ultimately inherit the Earth, they both have a common investment in there actually being an Earth to vie over in the first place. I mean, even Powers of X showed that as bad as things got in the future, neither what humans evolved themselves into nor mutants wanted the Earth (and themselves) consumed and/or assimilated by the Phalanx, so that might be what tips the scales over in favor of cooperation.

In fact, Martin Luther King said it best, I think, something to the effect that humankind has ultimately only two paths --- coexistence or nonexistence. Either that, or as Benjamin Franklin said, "We can all hang together, or we will most assuredly all hang separately." In a nutshell, we can choose to cooperate or at least put up with each other for our own and the greater good, or we can keep fighting and squabbling amongst ourselves, as the Green Goblin said to Spider-Man in the first movie by Sam Raimi, "in selfish battle again and again and again until we're [all] dead! Is that what you want? Think about it . . . !"

[Devaishwarya]

Exactatiously!
They only have one Earth. Sure the mutants can exist off-world in any number of locations like Mars and Shi'ar Space but...Earth is their home, they will do what's necessary to protect it, not only for themselves but for ALL the other inhabitants plants and animals included, as they've done countless numbers of times.

As we saw in HoX, left to their own devices humans would ultimately sacrifice their own humanity to become "one with the Phalanx" regardless of all other existing life-forms.

Collectively, Mutants have no problems with humans...it's the other way around.

[Alan2099]

Collectively, Mutants have no problems with humans...it's the other way around.

I hate every story where writers try to go "every mutant on the planet does this or agrees with that."
No.

There's a lot of different takes, personalities, and goals in mutantkind.

And frankly, there are a LOT of mutants that go "I have have powers. You don't. Screw you." Sure with some of them it's about being hated and feared, but there's a good hunk of them that just want to rule because they feel they're better. The books used to call these "evil mutants," but it's treated like it's no big deal these days.

[Devaishwarya]

"Collectively" in this context does not equate "every".
And historically, those that "want to rule because they feel they're better" have always been in the minority...keeping in mind Ruling is different from outright Eradication...neither of which were accomplished at any point in this Earth 616's current existence.

As it stands right now...the Krakoans, as a nation, collectively, has no issues with humans. They generally, as a people, just want to be left alone. A pity that some humans, generally can't/won't respect that.

[Electricmastro]

As it stands right now...the Krakoans, as a nation, collectively, has no issues with humans. They generally, as a people, just want to be left alone. A pity that some humans, generally can't/won't respect that.

Well after the malicious actions of Namor, Magneto, Apocalypse, Onslaught, and other malicious actions from such mutants, regardless of how good their intentions were, as well as the human leaders effectively being told they’ll be replaced/ruled over by the mutants as gods, then I suppose that stirred the pot quite a bit, don’t you think?

I want to make it clear that none of that justifies atrocities. I’m just simply emphasizing that to expect many of the humans, at least the human leaders, to be completely and blindly accepting of the mutants and ignore everything they do on Earth, as Krakoa is still on Earth at the end of the day, then let’s just say that that would probably be quite hard to swallow even for comic books’ sake.

Once again, I want to make it absolutely crystal clear that none of that justifies atrocities, and that in a more nuanced scenario, all of this would be more properly explored in-depth, but at least at the moment, that doesn’t seem to be what Hickman is going for here.

[Zelena]

Well after the malicious actions of Namor, Magneto, Apocalypse, Onslaught, and other malicious actions from such mutants, regardless of how good their intentions were, as well as the human leaders effectively being told they’ll be replaced/ruled over by the mutants as gods, then I suppose that stirred the pot quite a bit, don’t you think?

I want to make it clear that none of that justifies atrocities. I’m just simply emphasizing that to expect many of the humans, at least the human leaders, to be completely and blindly accepting of the mutants and ignore everything they do on Earth, as Krakoa is still on Earth at the end of the day, then let’s just say that that would probably be quite hard to swallow even for comic books’ sake.

Once again, I want to make it absolutely crystal clear that none of that justifies atrocities, and that in a more nuanced scenario, all of this would be more properly explored in-depth, but at least at the moment, that doesn’t seem to be what Hickman is going for here.

I think it is more: as a reader, you have to accept everything that is thrown at you (Crucible, coalition with villains…) because everything is better than the former situation, with all the persecution, which always threatens to come back.

I have the impression that Hickman is preparing to go very far with that 'everything'.

In a way, readers are 'trapped' by Hickman.

[Devaishwarya]

Point well taken.

I'm not at all advocating for either side to be taken at face-value in this instance...because it's obvious that there are "rogue" elements on both sides who aren't willing to play fair.

An important part of reconciliation in the act of moving forward is both parties admitting and taking responsibility for grievous actions perpetrated against each other. And that has never happened in any comic book, X-Men or other, at least not to my knowledge. So...to be blindly accepting of each other would be grossly idiotic at this point given the long history of cyclical "fear and hatred".

But I do agree 100% it would be nice to see an honest attempt made.

[Huntsman Spider]

Point well taken.

I'm not at all advocating for either side to be taken at face-value in this instance...because it's obvious that there are "rogue" elements on both sides who aren't willing to play fair.

An important part of reconciliation in the act of moving forward is both parties admitting and taking responsibility for grievous actions perpetrated against each other. And that has never happened in any comic book, X-Men or other, at least not to my knowledge. So...to be blindly accepting of each other would be grossly idiotic at this point given the long history of cyclical "fear and hatred".

But I do agree 100% it would be nice to see an honest attempt made.

Of course not. To keep the cycle of revenge and violence going, neither party must be willing to acknowledge that the other side has legitimate grievances or that their own side may well have been even somewhat in the wrong. Tribal loyalties and hostilities over all else, including (unfortunately) long-term health and survival interests.

[Devaishwarya]

Pretty much.
And it remains so very entertaining...at least for me...even after all this time. I'm here for the cycle of revenge and violence goodness.

[Electricmastro]

Of course not. To keep the cycle of revenge and violence going, neither party must be willing to acknowledge that the other side has legitimate grievances or that their own side may well have been even somewhat in the wrong. Tribal loyalties and hostilities over all else, including (unfortunately) long-term health and survival interests.

And that’s probably where I start to diverge in terms of personal preference in opinion in that, with the understanding that prejudice is always around, that in mind, I’m really not interested in the increased amount of revenge and violence, which I’m sure can be written in such a way that there’s nuance in seeing mutants allied with humans while also seeing mutants and humans being enemies of each other, once again calling back to Star Trek in which some Klingons are allies and other Klingons are enemies, and makes for an interesting and entertaining (and such writing not being exclusive to the future either) I’m sure, scenario all around, assuming the writers are willing to go that far and actually go through with it.

[Huntsman Spider]

And that’s probably where I start to diverge in terms of personal preference in opinion in that, with the understanding that prejudice is always around, that in mind, I’m really not interested in the increased amount of revenge and violence, which I’m sure can be written in such a way that there’s nuance in seeing mutants allied with humans while also seeing mutants and humans being enemies of each other, once again calling back to Star Trek in which some Klingons are allies and other Klingons are enemies, and makes for an interesting and entertaining (and such writing not being exclusive to the future either) I’m sure, scenario all around, assuming the writers are willing to go that far and actually go through with it.

Yeah, I can agree with that.

[Steel Inquisitor]

"Collectively" in this context does not equate "every".
And historically, those that "want to rule because they feel they're better" have always been in the minority...keeping in mind Ruling is different from outright Eradication...neither of which were accomplished at any point in this Earth 616's current existence.

True, but those very same mutants are currently friendly with the X-men and the X-men have a habit of forgiving Magneto very easily and putting him on the team.

As it stands right now...the Krakoans, as a nation, collectively, has no issues with humans. They generally, as a people, just want to be left alone. A pity that some humans, generally can't/won't respect that.

It's more complicated than that. Krakoa is an isolationist ethno state who fosters a "Krakoa first" philosophy who pardons any mutant criminal they think is useful, and some not (Sinister) but won't lift a finger for the humans those very same people hurt. It's not a welcome destination for anyone who ins't a mutant and its implied even if they did they'd be second class citizens. They don't want to be left alone, Magneto spelt out the plan was to slowly buy up humanity with money and influence while comparing them with ants. It's the Savage Hulk quandary, do as I say or I'll destroy you but I want to be left alone when there are consequences. Krakoa's hostile to anyone who doesn't have the x-gene, including the island itself.

[Devaishwarya]

We can presume there are human allies. It's just that they are not featured at this stage of the storytelling. Could HiX-Man and Co. tone down and dial back the hatemutantsdie rhetoric a bit...I suppose. But it's always been present, will always be present to lesser or greater degrees depending on the era. Yes, we could all do with a bit of peace-making but...I'm not so pressed about the fear and hatred being ramped up and present because that's not really the focus of these stories or this era. The way I see it, they are there to provide context and a backdrop for action, really and truly they are secondary to the main plot: Mutant Nation Building.
(I think HiX-Man himself said that this was just the beginning...there is more to be added to the story).

For the first time in a very long while it's really and truly about Mutants coming into their own and establishing a solid foundation regardless and in spite of those pesky humans. This is not about the humans. And that to me has been far more interesting than anything I've been reading in recent times.

[Steel Inquisitor]

We can presume there are human allies. It's just that they are not featured at this stage of the storytelling. Could HiX-Man and Co. tone down and dial back the hatemutantsdie rhetoric a bit...I suppose. But it's always been present, will always be present to lesser or greater degrees depending on the era. Yes, we could all do with a bit of peace-making but...I'm not so pressed about the fear and hatred being ramped up and present because that's not really the focus of these stories or this era. The way I see it, they are there to provide context and a backdrop for action, really and truly they are secondary to the main plot: Mutant Nation Building.
(I think HiX-Man himself said that this was just the beginning...there is more to be added to the story).

For the first time in a very long while it's really and truly about Mutants coming into their own and establishing a solid foundation regardless and in spite of those pesky humans. This is not about the humans. And that to me has been far more interesting than anything I've been reading in recent times.

[/quote]

If you have to presume they have human allies they don't much evidence they have any. We know they have some leeway with Wakanda, but are they actual allies on the world stage? Of course this is not solely about human allies, it's about any race who isn't mutant and why they don't have anyone living on krakoa. It's not just humans, it's Inhuman and various races on Earth - which there are numerous, since this isn't our Earth. Why isn't Krakoa reaching out to them?

A bit? That's great propaganda for the anti-mutant bigots and anyone who will see as a threat, which they all but said to humanity "we own you now." It's like they want a war with humanity with their posturing. The X-men's lost their ability to communicate with humanity, post-Hickman. They may have had a rough relationship with people like Valerie Cooper but they were able to form a professional alliance. Now they'd likely tell her to get out for being human and act shocked when she takes it personally.

That's only been present with the mutant villain side who want domination, it wasn't until recently the X-men bought into it and that's not a good thing. They don't want peace, they want domination or extinction of everyone else (Apocalypse). It's been the motivation why the X-men have fought them all over the years. It's what made them villains. If you want peace this is the last thing mutants should do get it. Magneto basically begging humanity to fight back with his speech about subjugating humanity and generally doing everything in his power to make them attack him at every opportunity, and since he's the face of krakoa to the outside world he puts a bigger target on it then necessary.

This being the beginning isn't a reason that they don't have the slightest interest in doing it, they plan everything else to the detail but having other allies or races on Krakoa is mysteriously nowhere a priority? It speaks volumes about where their priories lies. This is part an integral of nation building.

They've tried to do this before with Genosha, Utopia and Jean's mutant nation. Except humans and other races, like the Inhumans must be a priority at some stage, which they've done in other aspects like the drug trading. That reminds me, Shaw made alliances with human cartels. Krakoa is not in a vacuum. Hickman's not doing anything entirely unique here, he's juts building on ideas which the X-line has been though the last few years. He's giving it an intriguing spin, like the Illuminati idea.

[Lucyinthesky]

I think that what Magneto is saying is that they will increase Krakoa´s influence so the "wrong sort of peole" meaning ORCHIS who the anbassadors know well will not get the means to hurt mutants anymore and that´s why there "will not be a mutant vs human war" he´s not saying at all that they will destroy humans, he symply is saying that they will use the same means their adversaries use to keep them from having the economical and political power to attack mutants anymore, given the existence of Orchis this is actually a non-violent way to deal with the main problem without going into an all out war with humanity, all withing the same legal categories recognized by human society. tbh it´s quite an interesting new take to achieve human - mutant coexistence and I would like to see a little more of this.