How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Devaishwarya]

Wakanda isn't a "country of minorities", they are the absolute majority inside of their borders. A pretty xenophobic one too.

We are not talking about what goes on within their borders. We are talking about how the rest of the world powers sees them and treats with them.
And keep in mind, "minority" does not only apply to race...especially when referring to a closed nation/society. You can have minority religions, minority sects, minority castes all existing within a single border.

[Zelena]

Considering the buying of influence is pretty common among nations I would say humanity has been buying itself for a long time, Krakoa´s plan seems just to use this already stablished system on their favor as a new way to combat Orchis.

Common, maybe, but frowned upon when it lacks finesse and subtlety, qualities Magneto never had.

Do the Krakoan need to look more dubious than they already are?

[Glio]

Excellent point. And to bring it back to the OP's question...there-in lies the vast difference between CB minorities and RL minorities. As a people, those who currently find themselves under the yolk of slavery, colonialism and social oppression do not have the means or the power to rise up and stand up to their oppressors. There's no RL equivalent of a Wakanda or a Krakoa.

So while still a few hundred years behind the Star Trek state of co-existence, the X-Men having taken this position are making positive strides forward.

This is interesting.

Superheroes are power fantasies, this goes without saying. People dream of being like Superman, Spider-man, Iron Man ... they project themselves into those characters.

In that sense, things like Wakanda and Krakoa are not power fantasies at the individual level, they are power fantasies at the communal level. People who have been discriminated against many times do not only dream of being powerful, they dream of living in a different society where they can make decisions.

It is a difference that occurs since minorities tend to have stronger and less individualistic collective ties to survive.

[Lucyinthesky]

Common, maybe, but frowned upon when it lacks finesse and subtlety, qualities Magneto never had.

That´s why I am hoping to read Hickman´s Magneto giant size issue because it was going to be precisely about Magneto´s as an ambassador something that takes him out of his comfort zone, specially for a writer like Hickman who likes to push the characters outside their usual areas.

Do the Krakoan need to look more dubious than they already are?

Given they were almost killed that issue anything they do could not possibly make them more dubious, so they seem to be focusing more on their objetives. It´s like people already see you in such a negative light that it´s pays more simply to be clear about what you are going to do and keep on that path and let your adversaries keep the secret agenda or reveal themselves while they fight you, in this case, let Orchis reveal themselves during the dinner so Krakoa´s position and hostility makes sense and is justified to a point even if it´s uncomfortable for the other ambassadors.

This is interesting.

Superheroes are power fantasies, this goes without saying. People dream of being like Superman, Spider-man, Iron Man ... they project themselves into those characters.

In that sense, things like Wakanda and Krakoa are not power fantasies at the individual level, they are power fantasies at the communal level. People who have been discriminated against many times do not only dream of being powerful, they dream of living in a different society where they can make decisions.

It is a difference that occurs since minorities tend to have stronger and less individualistic collective ties to survive.

Very interesting I agree

[Steel Inquisitor]

Agreed still Magneto also used to be a recognized world leader and supposely has been on meetings just like this before his alliance with the X-men along with Dr Doom and Namor so in this area he would have more experience than Jean, specially considering they just have been in the middle of an assesination attempt. Magneto talks this way just after they discovered this, in a dyplomatic meeting where there are people already ready to kill you there´s no much you could acomplish besides saying your part and go on your way.

Magneto was the recognised leader of Genosha, he's not known as an ambassador. We've seen him as an ambassador in Hickman's run and he's a poor one at best. He's not the only person who's been at meetings like this, Jean and Xavier have and they have less blemishes on their reputations than he does. It's not just experience, it's about the message he's sending and he's sending a terrible message to the world not only by his presence but his arrogant, aggressive tone. Which Krakoa wants, since everyone agree with what he says and how he says it. He was safe from the assassination attempt, it was Cyclops and Goron who were under pressure - and numerous X-men, like Jean, are experienced with being calm under pressure from combat situations. Jean's been doing that since she was a teenager against Magneto himself. Magneto's not doing anything irregular by how he talks here, that's just Magneto being his arrogant self. We know this, because of prior characterisation and every time he's "on screen" in Hickman's X-men.

His former alliance with Namor and Dr. Doom has provided zero results for Krakoa. So much so they're even less of a factor than other human nations. Krakoa has shown zero interest in getting them on board, which is strange given how close Namor has been with the X-men in the past and that he's the only other mutant leader in the world.

About Wakanda and Krakoa: Yes, they are not trade partners but they seem to be ok with each other, Magneto even seemed to expect this from them because wakanda is a nation that likes to do their own thing so them refusing their treaty was expected and there are not hard feelings, he talked with the Wakandan ambassador a lot more friendly than anyone else on that room. They also think the relationship between Storm and T´challa is enough

This isn't about "being ok with each other," this is about Krkaoa having allies. If war breaks out Wakanda isn't going to lift a finger to help them, you'd think this'd be a big priority at this stage. Now's the time to get international allies. That last line brings it home how alone in the world Krakoa is, and a big reason for that is because they isolate themselves. Jean was far more proactive at gaining international allies for her mutant nation and unlike Magneto she got him to officially help her cause. They're not even trading partners! That says a lot in itself.



I agree with you they are not being friendly and maybe that´s their strategy they are more worried about showing there´s no bigger agenda than trade even if they are rude about it because their counteparts really are being more secretive hidding their conections with Orchis. In diplomacy isn´t always a good natured meeting with people willing to listen to you, sometimes you need to be more clear about your position on things so other nations don´t missunderstand your intentions. [/quote]

If they're not going to be friendly now, when are they? Building alliances in the international community requires more then sticks. Being friendly will help them with trade. People are more inclined to trade with countries who don't think they exist. Or maybe they've been so cynical they've given up completely on this tactic. Except this is more than about Orchis, they could destry orchis tomorrow and another group will take their place. It's about culture, and while they've learnt to be less violent they've regressed significantly with how they interact with anyone who isn't a mutant or not from Krakoa. Communication only matters when they have trust, and they're not building just with these exercises making what message they're sending all and void. They're not doing what they should to get allies within these governments.

Magneto was never one for subtly, which is bad since diplomacy is all about subtlety.

I don´t think they think of themselves as an innocent party, they think of themselves as a group of people that have had enough and are willing to change the rules of the game in their favor to get their peace, this is not a matter of being innocent or guilty, it´s not that black or white, it´s about them becoming proactive about their approach towards the world to secure a future for their people.

This isn't about them being proactive, they can be proactive without making these mistakes. This has shown that Moira's terrible at stopping wars, when its plain to see this is going to end in fire because Krakoa couldn't be bothered to properly learn diplomacy. Something long ago Jena Grey knew how to do like breathing, I wonder what that jena would think of this.


Considering the buying of influence is pretty common among nations I would say humanity has been buying itself for a long time, Krakoa´s plan seems just to use this already stablished system on their favor as a new way to combat Orchis.[/quote]

[/QUOTe]

This isn't as good as you think it is. It's a polite no, Wakandan aren't Krakoa's allies. What's Krakoa going to do about it? Thinking just showing up at a meeting and expecting countries to fall in line because of their presence clearly isn't working and they should know better at how to make alliances.

No word on what I said about Atlantis and Attilan?

[Lucyinthesky]

Magneto was the recognised leader of Genosha, he's not known as an ambassador. We've seen him as an ambassador in Hickman's run and he's a poor one at best. He's not the only person who's been at meetings like this, Jean and Xavier have and they have less blemishes on their reputations than he does. It's not just experience, it's about the message he's sending and he's sending a terrible message to the world not only by his presence but his arrogant, aggressive tone. Which Krakoa wants, since everyone agree with what he says and how he says it. He was safe from the assassination attempt, it was Cyclops and Goron who were under pressure - and numerous X-men, like Jean, are experienced with being calm under pressure from combat situations. Jean's been doing that since she was a teenager against Magneto himself. Magneto's not doing anything irregular by how he talks here, that's just Magneto being his arrogant self. We know this, because of prior characterisation and every time he's "on screen" in Hickman's X-men.

I kind of miss Alda Huxley she was a good and ambitious ambassador for Genosha but I guess she died when the island was attacked, I don´t quite know where´s Hickman going with Magneto as an ambassador but I think on this instance given there were orders to kill them he decided to go the brutally honest approach. Now I would like to see a more day to day situation for Magneto as an ambassador of Krakoa and maybe meet Gabrielle Haller again.

His former alliance with Namor and Dr. Doom has provided zero results for Krakoa. So much so they're even less of a factor than other human nations. Krakoa has shown zero interest in getting them on board, which is strange given how close Namor has been with the X-men in the past and that he's the only other mutant leader in the world.

Charles asked Namor but he didn´t accept his offer it seems it bothers him that Charles still has his coexistence dream in mind and he doesn´t like it but Namor did help when Magneto and Cyclops asked him for Utopia and of course Jean during X-men Red.

This isn't about "being ok with each other," this is about Krkaoa having allies. If war breaks out Wakanda isn't going to lift a finger to help them, you'd think this'd be a big priority at this stage. Now's the time to get international allies. That last line brings it home how alone in the world Krakoa is, and a big reason for that is because they isolate themselves. Jean was far more proactive at gaining international allies for her mutant nation and unlike Magneto she got him to officially help her cause. They're not even trading partners! That says a lot in itself.

I agree they need allies so far they seem to have good links with the Shiar Empire, Wakanda seems to see T´challa and Storm union as a link between them and Krakoa even Shuri was friendly with Forge during that car race issue and Betsy seems to have pretty close ties with the Queen on Excalibur , I guess we will see if they develop closer ties with Wakanda or some of the other nations they have trade with, so far life on Krakoa has been Hickman´s priority to show in the comics maybe in the next issues we will see some more interactions between Krakoa and other nations.

If they're not going to be friendly now, when are they? Building alliances in the international community requires more then sticks. Being friendly will help them with trade. People are more inclined to trade with countries who don't think they exist. Or maybe they've been so cynical they've given up completely on this tactic. Except this is more than about Orchis, they could destry orchis tomorrow and another group will take their place. It's about culture, and while they've learnt to be less violent they've regressed significantly with how they interact with anyone who isn't a mutant or not from Krakoa. Communication only matters when they have trust, and they're not building just with these exercises making what message they're sending all and void. They're not doing what they should to get allies within these governments.

I agree they need to be more friendly I just doubt how friendly you can be with a group that´s getting ready to kill you before meeting you, if it wasn´t for that maybe the dinner would have been more productive

Who knows, they either just want to be left alone and are not preparing for any war or they are preparing for war and don´t see much potential allies outside Krakoa or they plan to make some alliances we just have not seen this develop on the comics yet.

Magneto was never one for subtly, which is bad since diplomacy is all about subtlety.

He definitely can be more subtle when he chooses to be, he did this as headmaster for the school and when he was leading Genosha, on this issue he definitely wasn´t trying maybe because there was no much reason to be given the circusntances.

This isn't about them being proactive, they can be proactive without making these mistakes. This has shown that Moira's terrible at stopping wars, when its plain to see this is going to end in fire because Krakoa couldn't be bothered to properly learn diplomacy. Something long ago Jena Grey knew how to do like breathing, I wonder what that jena would think of this.

Sure Jean can also be a good diplomatic head but mind you I think both Magneto and Storm know a little more about international relations given their experience, sure Jean had her young nation on X-men red but most of the issues were about her trying to clean her name from Cassandra´s muders, not about actual international relations.

This isn't as good as you think it is. It's a polite no, Wakandan aren't Krakoa's allies. What's Krakoa going to do about it? Thinking just showing up at a meeting and expecting countries to fall in line because of their presence clearly isn't working and they should know better at how to make alliances.

Sorry I failed to see them asking the other countries to "fall in line" so far they just let them know they were going to use the same system all those other countries use and by the Wakandan own admitance, that´s to be expected.

No word on what I said about Atlantis and Attilan?

What about them?

[CoCoBandz]

I kind of miss Alda Huxley she was a good and ambitious ambassador for Genosha but I guess she died when the island was attacked, I don´t quite know where´s Hickman going with Magneto as an ambassador but I think on this instance given there were orders to kill them he decided to go the brutally honest approach. Now I would like to see a more day to day situation for Magneto as an ambassador of Krakoa and maybe meet Gabrielle Haller again.

Gabrielle Haller is dead.

[Zelena]

This is interesting.

Superheroes are power fantasies, this goes without saying. People dream of being like Superman, Spider-man, Iron Man ... they project themselves into those characters.

In that sense, things like Wakanda and Krakoa are not power fantasies at the individual level, they are power fantasies at the communal level. People who have been discriminated against many times do not only dream of being powerful, they dream of living in a different society where they can make decisions.

It is a difference that occurs since minorities tend to have stronger and less individualistic collective ties to survive.

But why do they want to be super, exactly? What do they think they are lacking in their normal state?

I think people want to be super to be recognized, that people look up to them because it is something that it hasn't been done enough… But, in this context, everyone is considered, marginalized people want to be a part of the community in the larger sense.

Here, it is building a society where people are recognized only in this society and not beyond. The mutants don't care what the humans think of them… But it is what is already done in real life, those who have suffered from a lack of recognition and think they cannot find it in society in general, seek a community of people like them, where they think they can be appreciated.

In a way, it is a failure because it is less about the value of a person and more about his value as a symbol. Mutants are no more people: they are mutants. Wanda would have been treated differently if she had been still a mutant.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I kind of miss Alda Huxley she was a good and ambitious ambassador for Genosha but I guess she died when the island was attacked, I don´t quite know where´s Hickman going with Magneto as an ambassador but I think on this instance given there were orders to kill them he decided to go the brutally honest approach. Now I would like to see a more day to day situation for Magneto as an ambassador of Krakoa and maybe meet Gabrielle Haller again.

Being brutally honest was just what Magneto does, he has no need to be manipulative because he sees himself as so powerful it's beneath him. If Krkaoa really meant to have friendly relations with other countries they wouldn't let Magneto or Apocalypse within speaking distance of forage representatives. They are the manifestation of mutants who will rule or kill every other group on the planet to serve their mutant empires. And I don't think Xavier is too naive to know this and it's telling how he does it anyway. The fact he didn't use violence didn't mena he's being nice, polite and nice are not the same terms. Magneto's being polite he's not being nice. He's there to frighten the humans or perceived enemies of Krakoa into compliance, he's a stick. Xavier used him like this in the Fantatsic Four crossover, as well. His presence has a subtle message of "do as we say or we'll let him loose on you - you wouldn't want this, would you?" What makes him a better negotiator than Jean for you? This really should be where she'd fit in yet she's nowhere near this instead they stick her on Krakoa CIA.

Charles asked Namor but he didn´t accept his offer it seems it bothers him that Charles still has his coexistence dream in mind and he doesn´t like it but Namor did help when Magneto and Cyclops asked him for Utopia and of course Jean during X-men Red.

Namor originally rebuffed Jean, but eventually she convinced him to join the X-men and make Atlantis the X-men's base for their new nation. He's not someone you ask once then never do it again. He requires a deft touch and like many political alliances in the real world constant arguments and sticks and carrots until he relents. This is why I said the X-men's negotiating tactics have fallen tremendously. IIRC Xavier asked Namor himself to join Krakoa rather than convincing Namor to get Atlantis to be their political and military ally - something Jean was able to do in X-men Red. Years ago I'd have thought Xavier was the master negotiator for the X-men now it looks like he's passed that torch to Jean and decided to emulate Magneto's philosophy in making friends. The question is, why wasn't Jean asked about this since it's obvious they're failing spectacularly with allies who should be easy sells.

I agree they need allies so far they seem to have good links with the Shiar Empire, Wakanda seems to see T´challa and Storm union as a link between them and Krakoa even Shuri was friendly with Forge during that car race issue and Betsy seems to have pretty close ties with the Queen on Excalibur , I guess we will see if they develop closer ties with Wakanda or some of the other nations they have trade with, so far life on Krakoa has been Hickman´s priority to show in the comics maybe in the next issues we will see some more interactions between Krakoa and other nations.

They have friends in high places in those countries and empires but do they have political alliances? If Orchis decides to invade Krkaoa next week are any of those nations going to do anything about it? Wakanda looks like a polite no, despite having Storm as their queen. Betsy is a servant of the Queen and the Queen is unlikely to do anything about Krkaoa since the UK isn't their political ally and Betsy's not really that interested in doing that and Xavier's not exactly giving her a priority to convince the Queen of this and even if she did this'd require the UK government signing off. The British royal family are figureheads and I doubt they'd risk destroying their status quo to force the UK to act on krakoa's behalf. Of course, why isn't Xavier himself visiting her? Or the prime minster, whoever they are in Marvel?

I agree they need to be more friendly I just doubt how friendly you can be with a group that´s getting ready to kill you before meeting you, if it wasn´t for that maybe the dinner would have been more productive

The X-men are friendly with people who do that ever since Krakoa was a thing, including more than one person in that room. It's politics, if they can't get this they're more

No, this was what they expected and all they intended it to be. They expected this and came fully prepared both physically and mentally for the assault - which is a crux of their arguments against humanity. Xavier uses it as a key part of his scolding, due to his assassination attempt. They had no intention of doing anything else. This wasn't a diplomatic mission to make friends this was a diplomatic mission to scare the crap out of their enemies.

Who knows, they either just want to be left alone and are not preparing for any war or they are preparing for war and don´t see much potential allies outside Krakoa or they plan to make some alliances we just have not seen this develop on the comics yet.

Why wouldn't they be preparing for war, every nation does this and they have extra incentive from Moira's knowledge and those who know about that are all in the Quiet Council. They're not improving here, Hickman has gone to extraordinary lengths to show us how organised they are. Under no conditions is it feasible for any country on Earth not to form political alliances, it's essential for survival and economics. In theory Xaviers offer to countries with the drugs should be opening up all sots of alliances with every country on earth except it doesn't? They get money and influence, supposedly, but they can't finagle this into political alliances about war?

If they are preparing for war and have concluded that they'll never get any allies, and let's be honest, they're not trying very hard to accomplish this, they've already lost before this has began. For all their power they're not invincible and unlike most comics Hickman's trying to give a somewhat realistic political tone so these things will mean more here than in, say, Lobdell's run with Onslaught running around.

Given their situation Krakoa letting allies be their last priority isn't a good look for them, at any angle.

He definitely can be more subtle when he chooses to be, he did this as headmaster for the school and when he was leading Genosha, on this issue he definitely wasn´t trying maybe because there was no much reason to be given the circusntances.

Headmaster Magneto hasn't been revenant for decades and Magnto was back to his super-villain self leading Genosha. In "Eve of Destruction" he kidnapped Xavier, crucified him and in an interview with Trish Tilby dares humanity to attack Genosha. When the X-men go to Genosha to stop him he disintegrates Dazzler, and tries to take the adamantium out of Wolverine again. He isn't trying because he has no interest to, and what's worse is that X-men who should know better are egging him on, like Xavier. Magneto isn't going rogue he's following the plan to the letter. Circumstances can change, but Magneto's really not that interested in truly changing his attitudes all he's done is put on a smiling face.

Sure Jean can also be a good diplomatic head but mind you I think both Magneto and Storm know a little more about international relations given their experience, sure Jean had her young nation on X-men red but most of the issues were about her trying to clean her name from Cassandra´s muders, not about actual international relations.

Storm's not Wakanda's ambassador. Magneto's experience is debatable, nowadays he's Xavier's attack dog. Jean's been sidelined entirely, ask yourself why. She's a member of the Quiet Council, she's got great experience wth this to of thing and hasn't got Magneto's baggage. The main reason she's failed in X-men Red was due to Nova's interference, not that she was bad at being an ambassador. She's had more luck at it than Magneto did.

Sorry I failed to see them asking the other countries to "fall in line" so far they just let them know they were going to use the same system all those other countries use and by the Wakandan own admitance, that´s to be expected.

You're right, that wasn't about other countries becoming allies it was to intimidate them further. What's expected is for countries to gather allies, Krkaao is vulnerable since it's a new nation in its early stages and Krakoa's more interested in trying to bully nations than gain allies. That says more about Wakanda thinks about Krkaoa's capabilities as a government than supporting them, they may be friendly but Wakanda is low key giving them the thumbs down in that meeting. If Krkaoa truly wanted Wakanda to be their ally over that they failed badly.

What about them?

They're two powerful nations of super-humans who would be natural allies to Krakoa. The fact they're seen as nothing of consequence to Krkaoa's success is breath taking. Militarily, they're both options Krkaoa should be trying to get them on board as fast as possible, but nothing. This isn't Earth, humanity isn't as dominant on Marvel as we are here.

[Glio]

But why do they want to be super, exactly? What do they think they are lacking in their normal state?

I think people want to be super to be recognized, that people look up to them because it is something that it hasn't been done enough… But, in this context, everyone is considered, marginalized people want to be a part of the community in the larger sense.

Here, it is building a society where people are recognized only in this society and not beyond. The mutants don't care what the humans think of them… But it is what is already done in real life, those who have suffered from a lack of recognition and think they cannot find it in society in general, seek a community of people like them, where they think they can be appreciated.

In a way, it is a failure because it is less about the value of a person and more about his value as a symbol. Mutants are no more people: they are mutants. Wanda would have been treated differently if she had been still a mutant.

Not at all. Inside Krakoa there are still heroes that stand out from the rest. Following the assault on Mother Mold, the team are celebrated as heroes among their peers. How many times in X-Men history have we seen something like this? People celebrating their victory. Their people.

At last they have a safe space in which they are not feared and hated, they are heroes.

[Lucyinthesky]

Sorry post was too long, had to use two entries.

Being brutally honest was just what Magneto does, he has no need to be manipulative because he sees himself as so powerful it's beneath him. If Krkaoa really meant to have friendly relations with other countries they wouldn't let Magneto or Apocalypse within speaking distance of forage representatives. They are the manifestation of mutants who will rule or kill every other group on the planet to serve their mutant empires. And I don't think Xavier is too naive to know this and it's telling how he does it anyway. The fact he didn't use violence didn't mena he's being nice, polite and nice are not the same terms. Magneto's being polite he's not being nice. He's there to frighten the humans or perceived enemies of Krakoa into compliance, he's a stick. Xavier used him like this in the Fantatsic Four crossover, as well. His presence has a subtle message of "do as we say or we'll let him loose on you - you wouldn't want this, would you?" What makes him a better negotiator than Jean for you? This really should be where she'd fit in yet she's nowhere near this instead they stick her on Krakoa CIA.

I do think Jean would make a good diplomat, Storm could be an even better one given she actually has lead a country, I think all three would do a good job given time but all of them have their streghts and weakness. Charles may see him that way but he isn´t always right, Magneto was a leader for Genosha without any miracle drugs and a population composed of humans and mutants while dealing with international issues and fighting an internal civil war the X-books didn´t do much with this but others did show this interesting different sides of this situation. Of the three I think Storm does have the good reputation, experience and close ties with Wakanda but I think all three would do a good job.






I am actually curious to know Hickman´s and inside story Xavier´s reasons for putting Jean on X-force and Magneto on diplomacy, narratively speaking it´s ironic, they could do both things but are more personaly inclined to one area, Jean definitely would be less conflicted working for diplomacy than as part of the X-cia and Magneto would be more confortable and on his element on X-Force but instead they have been put on different places, I think there´s a narrative reason for this, I hope Percy and Hickman get the oportunity to explore this a little more.

Namor originally rebuffed Jean, but eventually she convinced him to join the X-men and make Atlantis the X-men's base for their new nation. He's not someone you ask once then never do it again. He requires a deft touch and like many political alliances in the real world constant arguments and sticks and carrots until he relents. This is why I said the X-men's negotiating tactics have fallen tremendously. IIRC Xavier asked Namor himself to join Krakoa rather than convincing Namor to get Atlantis to be their political and military ally - something Jean was able to do in X-men Red. Years ago I'd have thought Xavier was the master negotiator for the X-men now it looks like he's passed that torch to Jean and decided to emulate Magneto's philosophy in making friends. The question is, why wasn't Jean asked about this since it's obvious they're failing spectacularly with allies who should be easy sells.

Well Namor is being written as a main villain right now for the Avengers my guess is that´s the main reason outside story why he didn´t accept the offer, inside story it was just revealed Xavier tried to help Namor when he was young but only made him worse, it makes sense for Namor to hold a little resentment towards him which seems to extend towards his actual proyect on Krakoa, I guess Jean would be more accepted by him but given his actual actitude I don´t think she could do much neither Magneto imo given they are both actually allied with Xavier. I honestly don´t see much of the malingned "Xavier is following magneto´s phyloshophy and that´s why they can´t make any alliances rarrr" pov because no one is forcing Charles to act the way he´s been acting as far as we know but specially since Magneto was and is perfectly capable of making alliances when he puts his mind to it, hell,he even once made an alliance with Maria Hill from Shield, the problem is the way he´s being written imo specially on the FF vs X-men crossover but I already complained too much about it, I don´t like to repeat myself

They have friends in high places in those countries and empires but do they have political alliances? If Orchis decides to invade Krkaoa next week are any of those nations going to do anything about it? Wakanda looks like a polite no, despite having Storm as their queen. Betsy is a servant of the Queen and the Queen is unlikely to do anything about Krkaoa since the UK isn't their political ally and Betsy's not really that interested in doing that and Xavier's not exactly giving her a priority to convince the Queen of this and even if she did this'd require the UK government signing off. The British royal family are figureheads and I doubt they'd risk destroying their status quo to force the UK to act on krakoa's behalf. Of course, why isn't Xavier himself visiting her? Or the prime minster, whoever they are in Marvel?

lol you made me remember the Prince of Egypt XD You asked for recent X-men alliances and I told you what´s been shown on the page, if that isn´t enough for you there´s no much else I can show you until Hickman writes something new.

I think when push comes to shove currently the X-men are doing everything to take care of themselves, just like Wakanda, Latveria, Atlantis and Attilan are doing it, sure it would be interesting to see them use their alliances to deal with issues but it seems that´s just not how things at the marvel universe work, it would be needed something as big as a secret wars level of threat and sometiems not even that is enough for them to make alliances, or something else to see them actually act on those alliances. It would be nice to see indeed.

The X-men are friendly with people who do that ever since Krakoa was a thing, including more than one person in that room. It's politics, if they can't get this they're more. No, this was what they expected and all they intended it to be. They expected this and came fully prepared both physically and mentally for the assault - which is a crux of their arguments against humanity. Xavier uses it as a key part of his scolding, due to his assassination attempt. They had no intention of doing anything else. This wasn't a diplomatic mission to make friends this was a diplomatic mission to scare the crap out of their enemies.

Again given there were plans to kill them before the meeting started they had reason to be defensive,if this wasn´t the case I think the meeting would have gone on a lot diffently than it went.

[QUOTE]Why wouldn't they be preparing for war, every nation does this and they have extra incentive from Moira's knowledge and those who know about that are all in the Quiet Council. They're not improving here, Hickman has gone to extraordinary lengths to show us how organised they are. Under no conditions is it feasible for any country on Earth not to form political alliances, it's essential for survival and economics. In theory Xaviers offer to countries with the drugs should be opening up all sots of alliances with every country on earth except it doesn't? They get money and influence, supposedly, but they can't finagle this into political alliances about war?

If they are preparing for war and have concluded that they'll never get any allies, and let's be honest, they're not trying very hard to accomplish this, they've already lost before this has began. For all their power they're not invincible and unlike most comics Hickman's trying to give a somewhat realistic political tone so these things will mean more here than in, say, Lobdell's run with Onslaught running around. Given their situation Krakoa letting allies be their last priority isn't a good look for them, at any angle.

I honestly don´t know, maybe all those meetings Xavier is doing are about more than trade, maybe not, but so far their priorities seem to be made to keep security on the island, maybe they will do something else in the future. Krakoa´s problems are with Orchis not with any other country on earth it doesn´t make sense for them to go around saying I just want to have trade and be left in peace and then change their tune and secretly make alliances for an possible future war, it makes more sense to make political alliances and so far we have been shown little about this outside of what I already mentioned to you, I am not writting the story, sorry for not being able to answer all your problems with it.

Sure maye it´s ill advised not to make a priority for political alliances and do all the work themselves but honestly that´s hardly rare in the marvel universe considering how Atlantis, Attilan and Wakanda run things.

[Lucyinthesky]

Headmaster Magneto hasn't been revenant for decades and Magnto was back to his super-villain self leading Genosha. In "Eve of Destruction" he kidnapped Xavier, crucified him and in an interview with Trish Tilby dares humanity to attack Genosha. When the X-men go to Genosha to stop him he disintegrates Dazzler, and tries to take the adamantium out of Wolverine again. He isn't trying because he has no interest to, and what's worse is that X-men who should know better are egging him on, like Xavier. Magneto isn't going rogue he's following the plan to the letter. Circumstances can change, but Magneto's really not that interested in truly changing his attitudes all he's done is put on a smiling face.

I didn´t talk about his relevance, I am just saying that Magneto´s character involves a little more complexity than being the stick for Xavier´s Krakoa and that part of his character has been there for years, before EoD and after it, for the last 15 years he has been an ally of the X-men and I doubt that will change any time soon.

Storm's not Wakanda's ambassador. Magneto's experience is debatable, nowadays he's Xavier's attack dog. Jean's been sidelined entirely, ask yourself why. She's a member of the Quiet Council, she's got great experience wth this to of thing and hasn't got Magneto's baggage. The main reason she's failed in X-men Red was due to Nova's interference, not that she was bad at being an ambassador. She's had more luck at it than Magneto did.

You know, curiously Magneto has not been to most missions outside Krakoa, right now Xavier´s attack dog is X-force not Magneto. Yes I agree Jean could do a good job but also Storm and Magneto could do it as well and they have the added advantage of knowing what to expect given their experience.

You're right, that wasn't about other countries becoming allies it was to intimidate them further. What's expected is for countries to gather allies, Krkaao is vulnerable since it's a new nation in its early stages and Krakoa's more interested in trying to bully nations than gain allies. That says more about Wakanda thinks about Krkaoa's capabilities as a government than supporting them, they may be friendly but Wakanda is low key giving them the thumbs down in that meeting. If Krkaoa truly wanted Wakanda to be their ally over that they failed badly.

They didn´t bully anyone there, stopping an assesination attempt is not bullying, they pretty much just said they will not take a double discourse like being invited for a meeting just to be killed. I am sure they have had more meetings that didn´t have this dimension they just have not been shown on panel.

They're two powerful nations of super-humans who would be natural allies to Krakoa. The fact they're seen as nothing of consequence to Krkaoa's success is breath taking. Militarily, they're both options Krkaoa should be trying to get them on board as fast as possible, but nothing. This isn't Earth, humanity isn't as dominant on Marvel as we are here.

I agree it would be nice to see any kind of alliance, it doesn´t happen often but it would be nice.

[Steel Inquisitor]

This is a response to Lucy.

But the question remains - why aren't either Jean or Storm ambassadors or people Xavier's asking advice from about diplomacy? I don't think we've got one, which shows Xavier may not be in his right mind. In this instance, it shows Xavier's weaknesses as a leader when he should know better. Magneto being Genosha's leader isn't a good reason for why he's given the authority he has, and as shown he was a terrible leader in that period, too. A tenure not known as "diplomatic" as "Eve of Destruction" showed. Would you want this person who did those activities as the face of your nation on the global stage when your nation is months old? I wouldn't. Genosha's status is no excuse for what he did, which is murder and attempt to conquer humanity. Your example isn' that off what he's doing now, he's still being an arrogant king and he's not exactly being that "friendly" to anyone. Storm believing Magneto is a tragic person isn't unfounded, but that argument fails considering how bad his actions have been over the long periods he's been a super-villain, including when he lead Genosha. Good villains have depth, but they're still villains.

That may be true out of story but this shouldn't be a sticking point with Krakoa when they need all the allies they can get. In that case why didn't Xavier get someone else to appease Namor in his stead? It's wildly out of character for Xavier to miss something like that, he may be short sighted but he's not stupid. It's not like Xavier's never had diplomatic relationships before but he may as well be an amateur on this subject, post Hickman. Under those circumstances Jean would remain the wiser choice to talk to Namor. As X-men they didn't give up on their allies that easily. Post Hickman Xavier and Magneto have been like twins with decisions, its blurs where one ends and the other begins. That's is very unlike Xavier, who gets into arguments with Xavier routinely and wouldn't hold his tongue trying to convince Magneto he's wrong. He doesn't do this any longer. Except Magneto's not making any alliances outside of Krkaoa at the moment, that's the problem. All he does is alienate people with his arrogant speeches, and him doing this is increasingly looking like the point Xavier brings him everywhere. He's not making friends with people like Maria Hill now, he's doing the opposite.

But why aren't you unsettled by this failure of making alliances? The X-men should be experts at this.

Those countries aren't being written by Hickman and Hickman is doing a "realistic" geopolitical take on the X-men, even more so than in X-men Red. That's why Priest's Black Panther run, which I think you used as your example, was amazing and why the standards should be raised higher than a usual X-men run when it comes to politics. Hickman, like Priest, is a very talented writer but just because a writer writes something you don't have to agree with what the characters are doing. They can make mistakes and I think Krkaao has been shown making numerous in short order. But the characters don't know they're in a comic book, for all they know they could be getting a Secret Wars that next month. They're a nation now, not a super-hero team and nations prepare for war, which includes making political alliances.

It's politics, political assassinations are hardly unique to the X-men. Magneto probably had one every week in Genosha. They also had Xavier, Magneto and Apocalypse in a room together, they're hardly a bunch of defenceless ambassadors even if Cyclops and Gorgon weren't there. They have the right to be angry but they are politicians now, not super-heroes and super-villains and politicians use diplomacy to gain allies and they couldn't do it with Wakanda! Of course, that's not what that was about it was to intimidate the human nations into backing down - not try to make friends. Yet they will with their own mutant enemies who are just as bad as the humans in that room, if not more so.

If they had succeeded in gaining human or non-mutant allied nations we'd know about it. What we can gain from the knowledge is that it's happened behind the scenes, or they're not do it, but in either case it's not happening. They're alone, and from what we've seen they haven't made fixing that a big priority in what we do see. Diplomatically, we know they put more priorities in frightening humans then trying to be friendly and we know they have barely any contact with non-human nations. They have no tourism, either, and we know only mutants can go through portals to krkaoa. They've cut themselves off and they don't have a bad location like Atlantis is. It's mighty hard to have a booming tourism industry at the bottom of the ocean.

Wakanda, Atlantis, and Attilan do have a stronger alliances with the word than Krkaoa does. The fact they have alliances with super-heroes like the Avengers and Fantastic Four isn't much but it needn't have to be compared to Krkaoa who have bad relationships with everyone. That's how low the bar is. Political alliances also would have helped them when they were in trouble, as well.

While Magneto's character has depth, that characterisation is remarkably less defining for him then his super-villain tenure. Even now he has more in common with Genosha Magneto than Headmaster Magneto. Being an ally occasionally with the X-men is not the same as being Xavier's "attack dog" like he is now. His relationship with the X-men is mostly strained, he's rarely an "honorary" X-man. When he did join the X-men around Utopia the team broke in half.

When I say "attack dog" I mean in diplomatic situations, think Spock on Trek interrogating someone for Captain Kirk. That experience counts for nothing when Xavier leaves them on the shelf, this is why he's doing diplomacy is failing. That is, assuming he's interested in diplomacy period, it might simply be political theatre because he wants to be the biggest baddest MF in the room politically. We've seen Magneto doing diplomacy, it's been shown as a failure - unless the definition means scaring the opposition.

Too bad it's not going to happen under this Xavier's authority.

[Lucyinthesky]

That´s why I said from the three the ideal person would be Storm for her experience and reputation and Jean and Magneto are where they are for narrative reasons. You are right Magneto is not someone people think of when it´s about diplomacy, that´s the whole reason he had a human diplomatic and advisor for Genosha, Alda Huxley, still he has traditionally been recognized as a leader of mutants in the eyes of mutants and humans along with Xavier, I would like to see an inside story reason why Xavier made this decision, my guess it´s we are going to see it on Magneto giant size story.

They didn´t gave up on Namor, they just respected his wish to not be part of Krakoa, should they have forced him to be part of them?
I see nothing wrong with Magneto and Xavier working together, they have done so in the past multiple times, Magneto has lead his own X-men team, has put himself under the leadership of Storm and Cyclops and by now has been an ally of them for years.

What I see now is a mix between Magneto´s and Xavier´s ideologies and that´s not a bad thing by iself given they have extreme pov in the first place, Magneto wanted to be defensive of mutants and protect them by any means neccesary, Xavier wanted coexistence with humans and to use the X-men heroics to have a good relationship with human society. Neither position really got the desired results so they are making a compromise, lest see how this works out this time.

But why aren't you unsettled by this failure of making alliances? The X-men should be experts at this

.

I am not unsettled because the X-men actually have been isolated for a long time so it´s not a surprise for me.

Why should they be experts on alliances? They have never until now managed a project with this dimension, the closer they got to was Cylops Utopia and he didn´t really made any political alliances either, he just had a good friendship with the mayor of SF, most of the time they were hidden on the school under the guise of being a school for young talents, their fights with the Avengers were common even in the 80´s, they were on speaking terms with the FF4 but not enough for them to truly be called friends and editorialy speaking marvel has keep the X-men appart from the rest of the MU for years, in a way it makes sense that them making a country just for mutants after what happened to them would raise some alarms for others super heros and but not if you see how little real interaction there has been between them and other super hero teams during years. It makes sense it´s kind of hard for them to understand each other.

Those countries aren't being written by Hickman and Hickman is doing a "realistic" geopolitical take on the X-men, even more so than in X-men Red. That's why Priest's Black Panther run, which I think you used as your example, was amazing and why the standards should be raised higher than a usual X-men run when it comes to politics. Hickman, like Priest, is a very talented writer but just because a writer writes something you don't have to agree with what the characters are doing. They can make mistakes and I think Krkaao has been shown making numerous in short order. But the characters don't know they're in a comic book, for all they know they could be getting a Secret Wars that next month. They're a nation now, not a super-hero team and nations prepare for war, which includes making political alliances.

I agree that you don´t have to agree with what the writer is doing with the characters but in the same way, just because you are bothered by what the characters are doing doesn´t mean other fans can´t enjoy the new characterization or be excited for new material about their favorite characters. I personally think the new status quo has potential and it´s interesting as an story, I would just like to see more reactions from the characters so we can better understand the decisions they are making, you could say I am in the middle, I like some of it and dislike some of it.

It's politics, political assassinations are hardly unique to the X-men. Magneto probably had one every week in Genosha. They also had Xavier, Magneto and Apocalypse in a room together, they're hardly a bunch of defenceless ambassadors even if Cyclops and Gorgon weren't there. They have the right to be angry but they are politicians now, not super-heroes and super-villains and politicians use diplomacy to gain allies and they couldn't do it with Wakanda! Of course, that's not what that was about it was to intimidate the human nations into backing down - not try to make friends. Yet they will with their own mutant enemies who are just as bad as the humans in that room, if not more so.

So they should not have defended themselves just because they are not defenceless? My point is that there´s no much diplomacy you can do with a group that already has plans to kill you whatever you say to them, so they decided to be clear they would fight back if attacked but that they didn´t want a war, just be part of the system the other nations have been using for years, no it wasn´t a meeting to form alliances but given the circunstances that´s not surprising.

If they had succeeded in gaining human or non-mutant allied nations we'd know about it. What we can gain from the knowledge is that it's happened behind the scenes, or they're not do it, but in either case it's not happening. They're alone, and from what we've seen they haven't made fixing that a big priority in what we do see. Diplomatically, we know they put more priorities in frightening humans then trying to be friendly and we know they have barely any contact with non-human nations. They have no tourism, either, and we know only mutants can go through portals to krkaoa. They've cut themselves off and they don't have a bad location like Atlantis is. It's mighty hard to have a booming tourism industry at the bottom of the ocean.

X-factor will be about the presence of humans on Krakoa, maybe it will deal with some of your doubts about this. Considering just a few months ago mutants were being persecuted around the world I am not exactly surprised they decided to keep krakoa´s closed off to the outside world, how closed off? lest see in a few more issues where this story is going. Also please stop pretending Wakanda, Atlantis and Attilan aren´t very closed off societies as well for similar reasons the mutants have.

Wakanda, Atlantis, and Attilan do have a stronger alliances with the word than Krkaoa does

. The fact they have alliances with super-heroes like the Avengers and Fantastic Four isn't much but it needn't have to be compared to Krkaoa who have bad relationships with everyone. That's how low the bar is. Political alliances also would have helped them when they were in trouble, as well.

I disagree Krakoa is right now commercially speaking way more open than Wakanda and Atlantis have been, neither seem to have the kind of alliances you are asking from Krakoa, they are both closed off societies that manage their lifes, commerce, techonology inside their county and are proud of it and hardly if ever have outside contanct unless their leaders invite the odd super hero inside it. The X-men have so many members that they hardly would need to call in the help from Avengers or the FF4 and no, they don´t count as political alliances.

While Magneto's character has depth, that characterisation is remarkably less defining for him then his super-villain tenure. Even now he has more in common with Genosha Magneto than Headmaster Magneto. Being an ally occasionally with the X-men is not the same as being Xavier's "attack dog" like he is now. His relationship with the X-men is mostly strained, he's rarely an "honorary" X-man. When he did join the X-men around Utopia the team broke in half.

Magneto seems get along with Cyclops, Charles, Storm, Wolverine, Jean, Cecilia Reyes and Emma.
He´s an honorary X-man after years of being part of the team? interesting, would like to know what are your requisites for being a "real X-man" are.

When I say "attack dog" I mean in diplomatic situations, think Spock on Trek interrogating someone for Captain Kirk. That experience counts for nothing when Xavier leaves them on the shelf, this is why he's doing diplomacy is failing. That is, assuming he's interested in diplomacy period, it might simply be political theatre because he wants to be the biggest baddest MF in the room politically. We've seen Magneto doing diplomacy, it's been shown as a failure - unless the definition means scaring the opposition.

diplomacy, speacially when the other party wants to kill you, isn´t always about making nice with other parties, it also can be an standoff between parties until they agree to negotiate something on an equitative manner.

Too bad it's not going to happen under this Xavier's authority.

Not surprising given how all those other nations are also closed off and how the X-men have usually managed things on their own.

[Electricmastro]

Agreed this is what happened on Moira´s previous lifes and why she´s trying to avoid it this time, because an actual war only leads to mutual destruction of humans and mutants.

And in speaking of the X-Men comics in general, despite all I’ve said, sometimes I feel like the ignorant odd man out when it comes to comics like X-Men, because while others are arguing about “this X-Men comic is improperly balancing its politics and social issues!” or “this X-Men comic isn’t political and social enough!” I just sit here simply, and I’m sure reasonably, just wanting well-written X-Men stories I can enjoy, regardless of how political and social they get.