How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Zelena]

So if the X-men gnash their teeth more that would make it better? because Wolvie and Scott have been done a little of that lately, Kurt too.

Oh, so little… so timidly.

The positions of each person would be clearer if they express it… Writers don't use bubble thoughts anymore.

It's the reason why readers are reduced to speculate about what the X-men really think: there are people that the X-men have fought all their life and, now, they live with them, don't seem particularly wary about them, adopt their ideas (the Crucible)… You would think it would produce a little more questioning… Betsy is the only one that seems to think… Everyone should give this impression.

Xavier himself has completely changed his position, his personality… and, yet, the X-men follow him exactly like before. I don't say they shouldn't but, again, it should cause a reaction. " — Katherine, use your connection with Franklin to manipulate him and separate him from his family. — Aye, sir! " No convoluted arguments can be satisfying to justify what is dubious. Here it doesn't raise any eyebrows.

[Devaishwarya]

Xavier clearly hasn't changed his position or his personality...even right down to his "do as I say..." attitude (as we saw in X-Men 04 and with Mystique in XM 06.) You may not like it, but you can't ignore it, because we ALL read it, right there on the page in type...no thought balloons needed.
The only thing that has changed is his approach to safeguarding mutants. And rightly so...the saying about doing the same thing over and over again but expecting the different results comes to mind.)

Granted, Kate should have queried his directive in XM/F4 but...the premise of that story is awful, questionable crap on every level. So...

[Electricmastro]

Xavier clearly hasn't changed his position or his personality...even right down to his "do as I say..." attitude (as we saw in X-Men 04 and with Mystique in XM 06.) You may not like it, but you can't ignore it, because we ALL read it, right there on the page in type...no thought balloons needed.
The only thing that has changed is his approach to safeguarding mutants. And rightly so...the saying about doing the same thing over and over again but expecting the different results comes to mind.)

Granted, Kate should have queried his directive in XM/F4 but...the premise of that story is awful, questionable crap on every level. So...

I can understand how some fans can feel that the mutants, including Professor X himself and especially Moira, sound more grossly patronizing regardless of how right they are, even if other disagreeing fans feel absolutely nothing wrong can happen under how the way they’re doing things.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Xavier clearly hasn't changed his position or his personality...even right down to his "do as I say..." attitude (as we saw in X-Men 04 and with Mystique in XM 06.) You may not like it, but you can't ignore it, because we ALL read it, right there on the page in type...no thought balloons needed.
The only thing that has changed is his approach to safeguarding mutants. And rightly so...the saying about doing the same thing over and over again but expecting the different results comes to mind.)

Hickman's Xavier is unrecognisable from traditional Xavier, he's Magneto's bald twin. There are brief moments when the old Xavier appears but it comes off as fake.

How something is read can change how its perceived. People can look at the same thing and come to separate conclusions. Magneto's actions as a terrorist is a big one in the comics. Some view it as "good" when he threatens people and tortures and kills X-men, others see it as monstrous.

Don't forget that there's layers to Hickman's writings. Are you absolutely positive he's making a case for Krkaoa or deconstructing it? He's a writer known for doing thorough research, he's not just improvising putting Xavier in a helmet that mirrors the Maker.

Granted, Kate should have queried his directive in XM/F4 but...the premise of that story is awful, questionable crap on every level. So...

She did this right after consulting Xavier, like he was mutant Blofeld. This Xavier "nudging" her mentally to go along would not surprise me.

[Devaishwarya]

I can understand how some fans can feel that the mutants, including Professor X himself and especially Moira, sound more grossly patronizing regardless of how right they are, even if other disagreeing fans feel absolutely nothing wrong can happen under how the way they’re doing things.

What is construed as "grossly patronising" to some I see as distinct "take it or leave it" hubris (especially coming from Magneto...but that is as expected.)

We are building a Mutant Nation on Krakoa.
Leave us alone.
Here are some drugs to benefit humanity.
Please, leave us alone.
We will play by Humanity's established Political games/rules/agendas.
Don't start none. There won't be none.
Leave. Us. T. F. Alone.

[Devaishwarya]

Claremont is clearly not Morrison who is clearly not Hix-Man.

Three entirely different writers from three entirely different eras with three entirely different approaches.

To expect Hix-Man to write these characters, or the same type of stories as Claremont in the same way as he did...is doing yourselves, the writer(s) and the product the absolute worst kind of disservice.

And quite frankly...Some of you all need to stop living in/hoping for the 80's.

Just as the refection of real-life minorities had to change with the times so too had the writing and perspective of who and what the X-Men are, and just how they have changed over the years. (Operative word there being "CHANGED").

[Electricmastro]

What is construed as "grossly patronising" to some I see as distinct "take it or leave it" hubris (especially coming from Magneto...but that is as expected.)

We are building a Mutant Nation on Krakoa.
Leave us alone.
Here are some drugs to benefit humanity.
Please, leave us alone.
We will play by Humanity's established Political games/rules/agendas.
Don't start none. There won't be none.
Leave. Us. T. F. Alone.

Well that will only work if Hickman and future writers dedicate themselves to leaving the mutants alone, as opposed to having many of the humans act as if Magneto is still wanting to be a human slaveowner like how he did back in the 1960s, treating every week as if Days of Future Past will happen next week, and Magneto destructively pulling a 180 despite what he previously said about there not being war.

Basically, if future writers don’t dedicate themselves to consistently establishing lives the mutants feel are worth living, then everything you said about building nations and such will ultimately become meaningless.

[Devaishwarya]

Well that will only work if Hickman and future writers dedicate themselves to leaving the mutants alone, as opposed to having many of the humans act as if Magneto is still wanting to be a human slaveowner like how he did back in the 1960s, treating every week as if Days of Future Past will happen next week, and Magneto destructively pulling a 180 despite what he previously said about there not being war.

Basically, if future writers don’t dedicate themselves to consistently establishing lives the mutants feel are worth living, then everything you said about building nations and such will ultimately become meaningless.

Isn't this what HiX-Man is doing now?
With the establishment of krakoa: Mutant Nation he is giving them opportunities to have a (mutant) life worth living.
Whether or not it will be meaningless is left to be seen.
Keeping in mind...that Morrison's X-Men didn't make Claremont's X-Men meaningless. Nor will HiX-Man's X-Men make Morrison's X-Men meaningless. They are all just different aspects/takes on the same stories.

[Lucyinthesky]

Oh, so little… so timidly.

The positions of each person would be clearer if they express it… Writers don't use bubble thoughts anymore.

It's the reason why readers are reduced to speculate about what the X-men really think: there are people that the X-men have fought all their life and, now, they live with them, don't seem particularly wary about them, adopt their ideas (the Crucible)… You would think it would produce a little more questioning… Betsy is the only one that seems to think… Everyone should give this impression.

Xavier himself has completely changed his position, his personality… and, yet, the X-men follow him exactly like before. I don't say they shouldn't but, again, it should cause a reaction. " — Katherine, use your connection with Franklin to manipulate him and separate him from his family. — Aye, sir! " No convoluted arguments can be satisfying to justify what is dubious. Here it doesn't raise any eyebrows.

Agreed, I also was like wait what? with Xavier, Kitty, Magneto and Storm that story of the FF/X-men seems quite forced to me, I think the writer was forcing the issue because the X-men certainly have never been interested in Franklin in that way and Kitty is hardly a yes sir kind of woman without exposing her own pov , I think the situation was forced to create drama between the two teams.

On the main X-series I think Hickman is doing this actions on purpose to create discussion, he said on an interview that he expected to hear from some fans that the X-men have become villains while others would support them and it´s not the first time, neither is the more extreme thing he has ever made the heros do in a comic, the New Avengers were developing weapons to destroy planets for example and there was a big discussion over that as well. I can only imagine the level of outcry if the X-men did something similar even if it was done in self defense.

I also think Hickman is developing this as a kind of mystery story because there´s are whole blank months between the X-men and Magneto coming back from the world of X-man to them helping Xavier stablish Krakoa, Cypher has been hidding Warlock and has secret meetings with Krakoa and so far only has trusted Magik to tell her a little of what he´s doing, there´s also Moira herself who has secrets within secrets and 10 lives she most probably didn´t tell the whole story to Charles and Magneto, she makes me remember "X" from that Mike Care´s story in which it was revealed she was a construct made by Legion to protect himself and his other personalities from being destroyed so they build a new reality in which the X-men were fighthing a futile war to survive from imaginary enemies, Apocalypse wants to bring back his "children" and Sinister is developing quimeras while he´s a quimera himself.

I don´t think Hickman is doing a White vs black story in which he expects the reader to quikly recognize the good and bad guys, neither is he doing a story in which the X-men have become villains all of a sudden, I think he´s building a story in which the heros may make mistakes but still have developed something truly remarkable that may stand the pass of time but still they could pay for their hubris and ironicaly this time the "bad guys" are being more open about what they want to do but that´s just my guess from what little I have seen, we may get more clues once the X of Spades crossover and EMPYRE tien in are out.

Perhaps, but the fact it's taken this long to get the slightest insight into other demographics being on krakoa is unsettling. That Magneto's Genosha was more open with humanity shows how far Krkaoa has fallen in being inclusive.
I'm curious, what have I said that wasn't convincing?
That does nothing to deter the fact magneto was able to make a political alliance with HYDRA, but can't do the same thing today. The circumstances are immaterial, and did Emma ever get backlash from the X-men or mutant community for that? She made an alliance with Norman Osborn, too. These deals are outside the scope of krkaoa at present, that's the problem.
I meant Marvel citizens. He's the darker side of gray, when he was a "vigilante" he became the mutant Punisher.
Hid deal with Evil! Steve's HYDRA, that's in the past. It may have been an unstable alliance but it still was an alliance. That's why there wasn't war immediately between mutants and HYDRA America. Magneto's not doing that sort of short term alliances these days with any human nations.
That same Jean fought him in X-men: Blue in 2018, because he went back to be being a super-villain terrorist. When characters do villainous things that makes them villains.
Scott wasn't polite when he spoke to the FF, on more than one occasion. One time he yelled at Sue then left before she could respond, the other he decided to tell the Richards' only Franklin was special because he was a mutant. He didn't used to be this tone deaf with other super-heroes. Scott was polite to Ben Grimm, but that's it. Agreed.
Magneto lead and inspired super-villainous groups since the Silver Age. In the 90's the Acolytes were his agents in "Fatal Attractions," Exodus may be their official leader but he answered to Magneto. In "Magneto War" he lead a group of Acolytes in a bid to reverse the Earth's poles, in "Eve of Destruction" he tried to start a war against humanity with Genosha as is army (he murdered Dazzler and crucified Xavier). In X-men Blue the 05 fought him to stop him from committing a terrorist act in the future when he reformed the Brotherhood. When he was out of commission from the mindwipe Exodus took over and did just continued terrorist attacks which is the same old thing Magneto was doing. The one thing Exodus got right was how his "master" was a remorseless mutant terrorist. Of course Magneto would think that, few villains see themselves as the bad guys they are - his actions speech otherwise, not that he's into making polite speeches when he's "on" he engages in stereotypical super-villain monologues. Magneto dabbles in that philosophy himself, Apocalypse simply take that to 11. He wants mutants to run the world with himself as their king, Krkaoa is simply a differing method the goal didn't chang

What I said to Zelena about Krakoa and about Magneto well I disagree but you already knew it

[Huntsman Spider]

Why would Warpath get upset? Sinister has the DNA of almost every mutant stored....why should TB be any different? It's not like Sinister dug up his bro's grave like some sleepy, grumpy, vampire...Sinister probably just got some of ThunderBird's hair from a hairbrush lol
I meeeeeeean......

Aint much of a body to grab DNA from
This almost exact storyline already Happened...in the first issues of the new X-Force??

Points acknowledged and respected, although I still find it deeply disturbing that it was Thunderbird's DNA Mister Sinister chose to implant himself with, given his past collaboration with the Nazis and his long history of hideous and heinous experimentation on people before and after said collaboration. Then again, I should maybe say it in clearer terms --- Mister Sinister appropriated a Native American mutant's genetic code for his own devious purposes, which strikes me as a (maybe-accidental) metaphor for how some people in the real world will falsely claim Native American ancestry and heritage. Given this thread is about how the X-Men/mutants in the Marvel Universe reflect real-world minorities and other persecuted peoples, I would think the Sinister-Thunderbird situation needs some serious (re)examining.

[Devaishwarya]

Sinister clearly knew how superior TB's genes were. Who wouldn't appreciate having superhuman strength, speed, senses and durability?

[Huntsman Spider]

Sinister clearly knew how superior TB's genes were. Who wouldn't appreciate having superhuman strength, speed, senses and durability?

Heh, good one.

[Electricmastro]

Whether or not it will be meaningless is left to be seen.

That’s probably the clincher here. We can go back and forth all day long as to whether or not suspicions are justified in regards whether or not sleazy activity is happening behind the scenes at Krakoa, because again, there’s also the possibility that Hickman can always pull a 180 from under our noses when we least suspect it, despite what he and Magneto have publicly said, because he, the editors, and the rest at Marvel are the ones controlling the story and we’re not.

Assuming Hickman is planning an ending finality to his Krakoa saga, and I’m sure we’ll certainly know when the ending comes, for better or for worse, then I suppose that’s when we’ll be able to confidently make our final opinions on the matter of how Hickman went about handling human/mutant relations.

So then, in that case I suppose that’s the last I’ll say about that here so as to not keep going in redundant circles, and in any case, will attempt to enjoy X-Men stories as best I can, because at least as far as I’m concerned, X-Men stories are meant to be enjoyed and entertaining at the end of the day.

Thanks.

[ARkadelphia]

this group appeared once, we never new their mission statement, and it has a human member.... noooot the best group to use an example of Magnetos rabid human hating philosophy :/

And yet it happenef

[Steel Inquisitor]

Sinister clearly knew how superior TB's genes were. Who wouldn't appreciate having superhuman strength, speed, senses and durability?

That's great for Sinister, but why should we care what he thinks? He's the one who's stealing DNA without consent from other mutants. What do you think Thunderbird would think of this development? Personally, I don't think a Native America mutant would take kindly to that being done to his body.