How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Steel Inquisitor]

I don't think the X-Men are interested in having any moral high ground.

Then they truly are lost, and have no right to the X-men name. Just call them the Brotherhood.

[BroHomo]

Editorial, bored writers, sales. The fact Marvel won't be solving racism or oppression in a comic book.

sooo nothing in-universe ??

It's an attempt to seal the rift between the X-men/mutants and Avengers/everyone else. It's not like the X-men are above using pretty white mutants for their own agenda, like in Whedon's Astonishing or most X-men rosters who look more like supermodels than the oppressed.

Buuut ultimately what did they Accomplish? Teach young mutants if you look pretty enough you can choose to blend in with "normals" and ignore the hate and prejudice other freaky mutants can't?

Then they truly are lost, and have no right to the X-men name. Just call them the Brotherhood.

idc what their called as long as the content continues being awesome

[Veitha]

Then they truly are lost, and have no right to the X-men name. Just call them the Brotherhood.

They're trying to survive not to be models of good behaviour or be made in action figures, they're not the Avengers.

Also, they haven't done anything that bad, they're compromising to avoid a bad situation.

[Ichijinijisanji]

I don't think the X-Men are interested in having any moral high ground.

Krakoa however is as a mutant culture to be "superior" to the human one. Many of these arguments are on moral grounds.

[BroHomo]

Krakoa however is as a mutant culture to be "superior" to the human one. Many of these arguments are on moral grounds.

well they're still winning on that part

[Steel Inquisitor]

They're trying to survive not to be models of good behaviour or be made in action figures, they're not the Avengers.

Also, they haven't done anything that bad, they're compromising to avoid a bad situation.

Trying to survive is understandable, however, using it as a justification for terrible things is not ethical and certainly not living up to the name of the X-men. Of course very few people know the real deal with saving the future with Moira X, and they're not talking. And it's not like they're the Morlock livings in the sewers of New York City, they're a First World nation and are the majority of their own country.

You're right, they're not the Avengers they're vastly more influential role models in their own country. They're politicians, generals, businessmen and women and soldiers. Xavier's not the principal of a school or the leader of a super-hero team he's the president of a nation! They're all looked up to by the kids in Krakoa, from Exodus to Wolverine. They shape society by their presence and are role models for future generations of mutants. That's not a light responsibility to give to anybody.

Let's go over what activities Krakoa has been up to: knowingly unleashing the mutant equivalent of Carnage to steal technology from Reed Richards and Tony Stark which gets people killed (who saw that coming?), having no school system to speak of, having no law enforcement, having three vague laws, accepting humans being second class citizens from Krakoa itself, clones not having all their memories when they get resurrected (X-Force), various X-men acting more like soldiers then super-heroes when fighting people, making Magneto their face to the world, allowing mutant supremacy ideology to go uncontested in Krakoa in their presence, Operation: Paperclip x 100000 with every villain they can get their hands on, covering up human deaths, taking over Otherworld and installing a mad puppet king with Apocalypse behind the throne, Xavier being ok with Apocalypse manipulating and abusing X-men in Excalibur, daring humanity to go to war with them with ambassadors with large body counts and histories with killing people with their powers, using their powers by force rather to extract mutants from humanity authorities over diplomatic options outside Krakoa, using people like expendable pawns to be discarded once they're no longer useful, not shutting down Magneto's delusions that mutants are gods.

How are they any better than humanity when they do these things?

Villains justify their actions by compromising their actions, they're still villains. That's why the X-men fought them. In your opinion, where the X-men wrong to fight them?


The X-men selling out their ideals to their greatest villains isn't any sort of activity to be proud of. This isn't Xavier's dream - it's Magneto's, and Apocalypse's, they own the X-men now.

[Veitha]

Add to that list giving humans life changing drugs that will probably change everyone's lives for the better, establishing a humanitarian fund for all humans and still being kind enough not to kill most of the people that come after them, their children and their families and all of that sounds pretty good to me.

Also, they're creating a mutant nation, not a superhero team. Big difference.

[Electricmastro]

^ this.

Plus that team did nothing for the mutant cause if not making speeches. And prior to the AvX situation (which affected them directly) they showed no interest in mutant issues.

And that quite ultimately shows the failure in the writers not fully taking advantage of humans like the Avengers actively and productively helping out mutants and waste opportunities like with Uncanny Avengers, even though humans like Steve attempted to do something at its start. There are no bad characters, only bad writers, and if Steve can truly by accused of doing nothing, then can’t that by extension mean the writers can be accused of doing nothing?

[Steel Inquisitor]

Add to that list giving humans life changing drugs that will probably change everyone's lives for the better, establishing a humanitarian fund for all humans and still being kind enough not to kill most of the people that come after them, their children and their families and all of that sounds pretty good to me.

None of those things I listed rated the slightest eye brow raising. Not unexpected, I'll admit. Given how shady Krakoa is those drugs are probably going to increase mutant kind and decreasing humanity's ability to conceive on their own.

Also, they're creating a mutant nation, not a superhero team. Big difference.

When they were a super-hero team that had ethical standards. They made a mutant dictatorship, which is wildly out of character for Xavier unless he's going through another Onslaught phase. And unlike with Onslaught he bought the X-men along for the ride.

Villains justify their actions by compromising their actions, they're still villains. That's why the X-men fought them. In your opinion, where the X-men wrong to fight them?

The fact this response was avoided is very telling.

I forgot about the lack of democracy, lack of mechanisms on the Quiet Council to keep them in check, working with drug cartels and the Crucible.

In retrospect the X-men becoming the Brotherhood seems obvious when they began naming their teams after genocidal groups like the Marauders. Well played, Hickman. I can't wait until the real X-men come back to sort this out, maybe they'll make a mutant nation that left their dignity intact.

[Devaishwarya]

While I brought it up, i was not speaking to make solely part of that metaphor. See the beauty of the mutant metaphor is that it can show various aspects of other sorts of bigotry in the world.

It can be used racially, it can be used for the LGBT, it can be used with the disability in its challenges faced by the characters that echo the challegenges faced by the real people struggling with those particular issues.

I don't think the mutants can, or even should embody just one metaphor.

Regardless of what some readers personally believe and purport, they don't embody just one metaphor...they never did.

[Veitha]

None of those things I listed rated the slightest eye brow raising. Not unexpected, I'll admit. Given how shady Krakoa is those drugs are probably going to increase mutant kind and decreasing humanity's ability to conceive on their own.



When they were a super-hero team that had ethical standards. They made a mutant dictatorship, which is wildly out of character for Xavier unless he's going through another Onslaught phase. And unlike with Onslaught he bought the X-men along for the ride.



The fact this response was avoided is very telling.

I forgot about the lack of democracy, lack of mechanisms on the Quiet Council to keep them in check, working with drug cartels and the Crucible.

In retrospect the X-men becoming the Brotherhood seems obvious when they began naming their teams after genocidal groups like the Marauders. Well played, Hickman. I can't wait until the real X-men come back to sort this out, maybe they'll make a mutant nation that left their dignity intact.

I answered by saying that they're not an X-Men team but a nation now.

I know you don't like current stories, but they're a logical response to what has happened since the last almost 20 years to mutants. They're not going to be passive anymore, that's good for mutants and they're still being nice to humans in the meantime. win win

[Devaishwarya]

Krakoa however is as a mutant culture to be "superior" to the human one. Many of these arguments are on moral grounds.

While one or two mutants..viz Magneto and Namor may believe that, nowhere in their charter does it say that.
That is pure conjecture on our, the reader's part. And it's Just some of us, at least.

[Electricmastro]

they're a logical response to what has happened since the last almost 20 years to mutants.

Yep, Hickman effectively calling out writers making “apocalyptic torture porn” out of mutant hate rather than doing anything insightfully meaningful with it over the last 20 or 30 years, especially after they squandered opportunities for some growth in the relationships between the X-Men and the human heroes laid out by Stan Lee, Jim Shooter, and Chris Claremont in past comics like Tales of Suspense #49 (1964), Secret Wars #9 (1985), and X-Men Annual #14 (1990).

[Devaishwarya]

I miss SHIP!!!

[BroHomo]

And that quite ultimately shows the failure in the writers not fully taking advantage of humans like the Avengers actively and productively helping out mutants and waste opportunities like with Uncanny Avengers, even though humans like Steve attempted to do something at its start. There are no bad characters, only bad writers, and if Steve can truly by accused of doing nothing, then can’t that by extension mean the writers can be accused of doing nothing?

There wouldnt be a book to accuse them of doing nothing if the writers did nothing.....but why even bring up the writers. for the overwhelming majority of the time posters restrict arguments to the 616...giving the Avengers or any one A Pass, or condemin the Xmen because of the writers or editoral just takes all the fun outta the books