How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Zelena]

What prevents people from living in harmony, by and large, is the mentality of too many that they, and they alone, are entitled to the benefits, opportunities, advantages, and privileges afforded by the society in which they live. Others whom those people see as not human or less than human do not deserve those same benefits, opportunities, advantages, and privileges that those people take for granted for themselves. That is the mentality that denies people the ability to live in harmony with one another, the sense of entitlement to selectively withhold rights and liberties from those seen as unworthy of said rights and liberties because they are not part of a society's majority population. Juxtaposed to the X-Men/mutants, they are being denied their basic rights to life, liberty, personal autonomy, and the pursuit of happiness out of the prejudice of human society towards their very existence, as if their mutant DNA makes them subhuman and unworthy of existing, and other superpowered beings like the Avengers have by and large turned a blind eye in favor of protecting a status quo that is fundamentally hostile to mutants' basic rights as people, even though they've known the X-Men as fellow heroes for years. That's what I'm talking about.

We, as humans, cannot do everything that we want as individuals. We have police, state, judges… all that is necessary that we live together, in security. (I'm not talking about the times these professionnals fail in their missions.)
The mutants go outside this frame: they escape it just by being themselves. The villains do even more: Magneto is talking about human bigotry while doing exactly what is needed to be the target of this hate.
So, no, it isn't just mentality: there are practical issues to solve.
I won't bother to even try it to do it because we haves real ones in our world in our hands and we have enough of them.

[Alan2099]

All of your evidence and reasonings fall flat when you don't take into consideration what was happening until a few months ago in their universe. Mutants were being killed in the streets. As soon as the X-men were out of the game humans tried to essentially eradicate the mutant gene away. Add Genosha, Decimation era and the T-Mists to that and are we really asking them to look for another option and not to take a more drastic change?

Genosha is an interesting example to bring up, as it really had nothing to do with humans. That was mutant on mutant violence (or whatever Cassandra was supposed to be.)

I also think we need to look at what mutants have been doing in this time, as they're not all just innocent victims.

House of M, they literally conquered the world and and re-wrote reality.
Utopia, they were sending out threats to the world's governments.
AvX, endangered the entire world AND conquered it.

I'm not too sympathetic about thing for the Mists either. That was the Inhumans deciding that their kids having powers was worth risking the world right after we got a story where the X-men did the same.

Mutant in general seem to have came to the idea that they're not interested in acceptance anymore. They're only watching out for themselves. It's no wonder that makes people a bit antsy.

[Veitha]

Genosha is an interesting example to bring up, as it really had nothing to do with humans. That was mutant on mutant violence (or whatever Cassandra was supposed to be.)

I also think we need to look at what mutants have been doing in this time, as they're not all just innocent victims.

House of M, they literally conquered the world and and re-wrote reality.
Utopia, they were sending out threats to the world's governments.
AvX, endangered the entire world AND conquered it.

I'm not too sympathetic about thing for the Mists either. That was the Inhumans deciding that their kids having powers was worth risking the world right after we got a story where the X-men did the same.

Mutant in general seem to have came to the idea that they're not interested in acceptance anymore. They're only watching out for themselves. It's no wonder that makes people a bit antsy.

Genosha was Mummundrai vs Mutant but done with weapons that humans had built and the same tech that Orchis is now using. We're not discussing wheter humans are always at fault here, but why X-Men are doing what they are doing right now.

Utopia was a nation with a dying species and they were using the Exctintion team to send a message to other nations and their enemies not to attack them again. It happened after a giant Sentinel approached the island and almost killed all of their kids. The team was no different than some countries having atomic weaponry.

AvX is too much of a grey zone to just say they conquered the world. It's not that easy, but I'd rather not have another AvX discussion.

Really, the T-Mists? People dying horribly and being sterilized do not make you feel sympathetic? The Inhumans weren't risking the world, they were risking mutant lives. Inhumans were doing great while mutants were getting sick and dying.

Humans have shown no care for mutants and the constant desire to kill them so it's to be expected that they want to thrive and survive by their own now. And, again, they're still being nice to humans.

[marhawkman]

All of your evidence and reasonings fall flat when you don't take into consideration what was happening until a few months ago in their universe. Mutants were being killed in the streets. As soon as the X-men were out of the game humans tried to essentially eradicate the mutant gene away. Add Genosha, Decimation era and the T-Mists to that and are we really asking them to look for another option and not to take a more drastic change? Especially when they're also able to still be good to humans and live in a peaceful environment. Should they let other children be killed so they can look good to human eyes? Please. There's plenty examples why a change was needed.

Also, wasn't this sort of thing the impetus behind Magneto founding the Brotherhood? In-universe it's not really changed. The specific mutants that people hate most right now may have shifted, but much like real life that'll change again.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Genosha was Mummundrai vs Mutant but done with weapons that humans had built and the same tech that Orchis is now using. We're not discussing wheter humans are always at fault here, but why X-Men are doing what they are doing right now.

Where Nova got her technology is irrelevant, she could have gotten it from some other source - human or otherwise. Her technology may have symbolism but ultimately it wasn't the humans who are responsible for that act so it's a waste of time to pretend like it was.

Everyone knows how the X-men got here, that didn't excuse their methods otherwise it comes as excuses for their own decisions who sound more like they're coming from super-villains than super-heroes.

Utopia was a nation with a dying species and they were using the Exctintion team to send a message to other nations and their enemies not to attack them again. It happened after a giant Sentinel approached the island and almost killed all of their kids. The team was no different than some countries having atomic weaponry.

The Extinction Team is contractionary, it was made to be the Avengers equivalent for PR and an intimidation tactic. Cyclops lost a step from his Astonishing days with Whedon with public relations with this. It's a mixed message. And they folded like a deck chair when they met Sinister of all people.

This was the storyline where Emma First and the X-men teamed up with Norman Osborn. Which turned out exactly as you'd expect since he's Osborn.
Frankly, Genosha is a poor explanation since the only reason it failed from Nova's attack is because the entire country had no defences, which makes no sense given Magneto was its leader. They didn't have any military or airport radars to warn them? No navy or air force? No armies filled with powerful mutant super soldiers? Nothing?

AvX is too much of a grey zone to just say they conquered the world. It's not that easy, but I'd rather not have another AvX discussion.

Because the PF were so wrong in that. It's ok to admit when the X-men become the bad guys when they become the bad guys.

Really, the T-Mists? People dying horribly and being sterilized do not make you feel sympathetic? The Inhumans weren't risking the world, they were risking mutant lives. Inhumans were doing great while mutants were getting sick and dying.

The Inhumans were clearly in the wrong there but their motives aren't that distinct from Krakoa. They, too, are a nation of super-humans trying to thrive and Black Bold unleashed the Terrigen Mist to destroy Thanos, any argument krkaoa has could be mirrored by them, what if the situations are reversed - if Krakoa unleashed a cloud on Earth that would revitalise their species and sacrifice others do it I really can't see Krakoa not thinking about doing it. It's not like the Krakoa cares about other species at the moment.

It's fascinating how Xavier looked at Attilan and went "I want some of that." They're following thee exact same path, including with second class citizens and the isolationism.

Humans have shown no care for mutants and the constant desire to kill them so it's to be expected that they want to thrive and survive by their own now. And, again, they're still being nice to humans.

Humans have shown that they care for mutants in Marvel, including in the X-line, but the narrative that all humanity wants to destroy them would lose its urgency if that was acknowledged. With how mutants are spoken about you'd think they were the Morlocks rather than a First World nation. The only people who want to kill mutants are the bigots, who are presented as the worst of humanity - which they are. I don't think we should judge mutant kind by super-villains like Apocalypse, Magneto, Selene or Sabretooth, do you?

The Skrulls are a dying species, was it right for them to do the Secret Invasion because of this? They may have a religious angle but it's the same argument.

[Electricmastro]

As with many of your posts, ElectricM, I'm in complete agreement.

Certain readers refuse to take into consideration that a single character can have varying iterations as a result of having several different writers over the course of the character's written history...a la Wolverine. And as such, there's bound to be many instances where said character can seem extremely unlikeable or placed in very objectionable situations...a la Captain America.

That's why I personally choose to "live in the present" so to speak. Base my enjoyment squarely on what's presented in front of me. If I were to focus on every single moment, every single varied characterisation, from past writers I would be absolutely miserable and constantly dissatisfied.

Yeah, and with the understanding that X-Men co-creator Stan condemned bigotry and the like, he also at the same time emphasized on comics being fun and enjoyable, no matter how profound or socially relevant they became. Not saying that comics always have to be all flowers, bunnies, and gumdrops to be enjoyable, but I think I’m more willing to favor his sort of approach than the less fun and more grim storytelling many modern writers had put the X-Men through.

[BroHomo]

Where Nova got her technology is irrelevant, she could have gotten it from some other source - human or otherwise. Her technology may have symbolism but ultimately it wasn't the humans who are responsible for that act so it's a waste of time to pretend like it was.

Eh you still get charged if your gun is used in a crime ....

Because the PF were so wrong in that. It's ok to admit when the X-men become the bad guys when they become the bad guys.

Huh? It restarted the Mutant Gene...so not sure how it was wrong????

The Inhumans were clearly in the wrong there but their motives aren't that distinct from Krakoa. They, too, are a nation of super-humans trying to thrive and Black Bold unleashed the Terrigen Mist to destroy Thanos, any argument krkaoa has could be mirrored by them, what if the situations are reversed - if Krakoa unleashed a cloud on Earth that would revitalise their species and sacrifice others do it I really can't see Krakoa not thinking about doing it. It's not like the Krakoa cares about other species at the moment.

making up a what if in your head does not count as canon you realize that ? Black Bolt's motive was to ensure his people survive despite the civilian(mutant) causalities. Please point out the scene in which the X'men plan on injuring a Flatscan Kid to prop up a Mutant one????

It's fascinating how Xavier looked at Attilan and went "I want some of that." They're following thee exact same path, including with second class citizens and the isolationism.

Uh What? Attilan had slaves buddy, not second class citizens. The Inhumans were isolated due to health concerns as well.

Humans have shown that they care for mutants in Marvel, including in the X-line, but the narrative that all humanity wants to destroy them would lose its urgency if that was acknowledged. With how mutants are spoken about you'd think they were the Morlocks rather than a First World nation. The only people who want to kill mutants are the bigots, who are presented as the worst of humanity - which they are. I don't think we should judge mutant kind by super-villains like Apocalypse, Magneto, Selene or Sabretooth, do you?

Depends on the judges...lol But seriously where do see all the human judgement in the XBooks?

Really, the T-Mists? People dying horribly and being sterilized do not make you feel sympathetic? The Inhumans weren't risking the world, they were risking mutant lives. Inhumans were doing great while mutants were getting sick and dying.

Dude Ikr, like Damn If You think Mutant kids dying and the P5 feeding the world equal each other out?
It's soooo sus.

We, as humans, cannot do everything that we want as individuals. We have police, state, judges… all that is necessary that we live together, in security. (I'm not talking about the times these professionnals fail in their missions.)
The mutants go outside this frame: they escape it just by being themselves. The villains do even more: Magneto is talking about human bigotry while doing exactly what is needed to be the target of this hate

You mean besides being born a Mutant? Sooo lemme get this straight all mutants must behave 24/7 lest whatever amount of violence brought to them be justified? Dang.

[Lucyinthesky]

Yeah, and with the understanding that X-Men co-creator Stan condemned bigotry and the like, he also at the same time emphasized on comics being fun and enjoyable, no matter how profound or socially relevant they became. Not saying that comics always have to be all flowers, bunnies, and gumdrops to be enjoyable, but I think I’m more willing to favor his sort of approach than the less fun and more grim storytelling many modern writers had put the X-Men through.

That was a really nice article by Stan Lee thanks for showing this

I also hope we will see the X-men go beyond the decimation era towards a more nuanced future that allows them to have different kind of stories and adventures like in the past, I guess that´s what I like the most about Krakoa all the possibilities it brings to the table that weren´t there before. Hope X of Spades serves to show Krakoa´s potential for good.

It´s interesting but the biggest argument towards the goodness the existence of mutants bring to the Marvel Universe were the skrulls and an AU nazi Reed Richards. The skrulls feared the sheer number of mutants and their powers before Genosha was destroyed and the decimation because that would make their secret invasion almost impossible, the mutants surely would join the humans in defending their world so the destruction of Genosha and the decimation took away most of their obstacles for their invasion.

In the case of Nazi Reed Richards it was a group of mutants and super heros the ones who stopped him even if he got infinity gems, they didn´t save their world but manages to take off him the infinity stones which was enough to make him less of a menace.

So Krakoa´s development as a mutant nation could bring new perspectives and oportunities for storylines in which the unity between humans and mutants can bring good things for all of them just like they can bring confrontation kind of stories, to have that possibility open once again after so many years of Days of future past kind of stories is a good thing on itself imo and it reflects the changing and nuance that can exist in real life.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Eh you still get charged if your gun is used in a crime ....

This response is so audacious I'm in awe of its deflection. Clearly the right perpetrators must be bought to justice, like Rick Jones. The true mastermind of Genosha!

Huh? It restarted the Mutant Gene...so not sure how it was wrong????

Doom kept reality in tact, after the universe was destroyed - surely he hasn't done anything wrong, everyone must surrender to his ultimate authority. That's your argument.

making up a what if in your head does not count as canon you realize that ? Black Bolt's motive was to ensure his people survive despite the civilian(mutant) causalities.

Pretending what Krakoa does won't make it any less real, they're the villains now.

Attilan has always held Inhuman lives before anyone else, and their society.

Please point out the scene in which the X'men plan on injuring a Flatscan Kid to prop up a Mutant one????

How about when they let Sabretooth loose with no concern to the humans in that area? They knew what would have happen and encouraged it anyway. How about when they showed no concern for Valeria when she was lost, compared to Franklin? Long gone are the days when the "X-men" value human lives as equal to mutants.

Uh What? Attilan had slaves buddy, not second class citizens. The Inhumans were isolated due to health concerns as well.

Attilan is like the prototype for Krkaoa. Hickman could have modified his X-men proposal for a line of Inhuman titles and not changed much. But you're right Krkaoa don't have second class citizens or slave castes, that'd provide genetic diversity in their empire. You're either mutant or you're not wanted on the island. Which explains the lack of a tourist industry or sections on the island for non-mutant groups. They will, however, be ok allying themselves with human cartels. It's telling the one team who has a human supporting cast member lives in the UK.

Depends on the judges...lol But seriously where do see all the human judgement in the XBooks?

There's always a sucker born every minute who'll trust them. Super-villains have get expendable minions and subjects to experiment on from somewhere. Apocalypse goes through human test subjects for bodies so quickly, and it gets so messy cleaning up afterward.

Pretending the X-men haven't had support from humanity all through the comics since the beginning. That's certainly a risky argument to make.

Dude Ikr, like Damn If You think Mutant kids dying and the P5 feeding the world equal each other out?

Cherry picking. If that was all they did they would be heralded as heroes by everyone, instead even the X-men hated them for it. You may as well be saying Doom a great leader because he has a stable economy for his country. If Vernake were doing that for Skrull children I don't think you'd be so compassionate.

It's soooo sus.

Everyone knows the PF are harmless, they wouldn't hurt a fly.



It's not like the Phoenix entity would make them threats to the world.

You mean besides being born a Mutant? Sooo lemme get this straight all mutants must behave 24/7 lest whatever amount of violence brought to them be justified? Dang.

This is a straw man, Magneto's activities early on were not harmless, he was a terrorist who tried to torture and murder the X-men and anyone else to install fear in humanity, he was the dark reflection of the bigots he fought against. In early days mutants were a secret, as well, if anything he made the hate spread by doing things like trying to EMP the world like he's Dr. Evil. He and other mutant super-villains are a PR disaster for human/mutant relations. They've been as big an obstacle to Xavier's dream becoming reality as the Trask's.

[Devaishwarya]

Yeah, and with the understanding that X-Men co-creator Stan condemned bigotry and the like, he also at the same time emphasized on comics being fun and enjoyable, no matter how profound or socially relevant they became. Not saying that comics always have to be all flowers, bunnies, and gumdrops to be enjoyable, but I think I’m more willing to favor his sort of approach than the less fun and more grim storytelling many modern writers had put the X-Men through.

We are having some moments of fun...New Mutants and Marauders eg along with the standard non-fun stuff like in X-Force...so I'm satisfied.

I do miss reading University-level vocabulary, though.

[Zelena]

You mean besides being born a Mutant? Sooo lemme get this straight all mutants must behave 24/7 lest whatever amount of violence brought to them be justified? Dang.

Even without the villains, the mutants unsettle the humans. Sure… The human society is not made to telepaths, telekinists, people who go through walls and so on… I'm not sure there's a satisfying answer to the kind of practical problems their powers would cause.

Violence would be the solution? I don't see how.

And anyway it's not really a problem: the mutants don't exist.

[Maestro 216]

Where Nova got her technology is irrelevant, she could have gotten it from some other source - human or otherwise. Her technology may have symbolism but ultimately it wasn't the humans who are responsible for that act so it's a waste of time to pretend like it was.

Everyone knows how the X-men got here, that didn't excuse their methods otherwise it comes as excuses for their own decisions who sound more like they're coming from super-villains than super-heroes.



The Extinction Team is contractionary, it was made to be the Avengers equivalent for PR and an intimidation tactic. Cyclops lost a step from his Astonishing days with Whedon with public relations with this. It's a mixed message. And they folded like a deck chair when they met Sinister of all people.

This was the storyline where Emma First and the X-men teamed up with Norman Osborn. Which turned out exactly as you'd expect since he's Osborn.
Frankly, Genosha is a poor explanation since the only reason it failed from Nova's attack is because the entire country had no defences, which makes no sense given Magneto was its leader. They didn't have any military or airport radars to warn them? No navy or air force? No armies filled with powerful mutant super soldiers? Nothing?



Because the PF were so wrong in that. It's ok to admit when the X-men become the bad guys when they become the bad guys.



The Inhumans were clearly in the wrong there but their motives aren't that distinct from Krakoa. They, too, are a nation of super-humans trying to thrive and Black Bold unleashed the Terrigen Mist to destroy Thanos, any argument krkaoa has could be mirrored by them, what if the situations are reversed - if Krakoa unleashed a cloud on Earth that would revitalise their species and sacrifice others do it I really can't see Krakoa not thinking about doing it. It's not like the Krakoa cares about other species at the moment.

It's fascinating how Xavier looked at Attilan and went "I want some of that." They're following thee exact same path, including with second class citizens and the isolationism.



Humans have shown that they care for mutants in Marvel, including in the X-line, but the narrative that all humanity wants to destroy them would lose its urgency if that was acknowledged. With how mutants are spoken about you'd think they were the Morlocks rather than a First World nation. The only people who want to kill mutants are the bigots, who are presented as the worst of humanity - which they are. I don't think we should judge mutant kind by super-villains like Apocalypse, Magneto, Selene or Sabretooth, do you?

The Skrulls are a dying species, was it right for them to do the Secret Invasion because of this? They may have a religious angle but it's the same argument.

Where are the ones who do like mutants then? More often in recent mutant books we see people who don't trust or just outright hate all mutants. Hard to buy the idea of humsns not being all bad to mutants when it is 90% hatred.

[BroHomo]

Where are the ones who do like mutants then?

Huh? Probably at their damn houses or jobs The X-Men are heroes that protects a world that hates and Fears them. Sooo there's more of a chance of them running into people that hate and Fear them.

More often in recent mutant books we see people who don't trust or just outright hate all mutants.

Yes because it's a book about good vs evil....Do the Avengers need a civilian running up to them praising and admiring them every issue? For readers to believe their the most loved team? Does Spider-Man have to include a scene of JJJ calling him a menace in order for the readers to believe some folks aren't cool with him?

Hard to buy the idea of humsns not being all bad to mutants when it is 90% hatred.

There are plenty of back issues folks can buy that includes human allies. Why is it there's more a call for 'nice' humans in a mutant book than they are for African American Mutants?? Or Guatamalan Mutants? Jamaican Mutants? I just most Mutants are white, and the minority mutants are just all female?? Hell there's been like ONE or TWO black Adult X-Man and now even that has an asteriskbeside it. I don't get/believe there's a need to show more Human allies when looking at past issues they far outnumber minority mutants Im starting to wonder folks just paranoid with the sloooow social shifts and get uncomfortable AF recognizing the similarity between them and the 616 Flatscans
Which is understandable I would be to

[Maestro 216]

Huh? Probably at their damn houses or jobs The X-Men are heroes that protects a world that hates and Fears them. Sooo there's more of a chance of them running into people that hate and Fear them.
Yes because it's a book about good vs evil....Do the Avengers need a civilian running up to them praising and admiring them every issue? For readers to believe their the most loved team? Does Spider-Man have to include a scene of JJJ calling him a menace in order for the readers to believe some folks aren't cool with him?
There are plenty of back issues folks can buy that includes human allies. Why is it there's more a call for 'nice' humans in a mutant book than they are for African American Mutants?? Or Guatamalan Mutants? Jamaican Mutants? I just most Mutants are white, and the minority mutants are just all female?? Hell there's been like ONE or TWO black Adult X-Man and now even that has an asteriskbeside it. I don't get/believe there's a need to show more Human allies when looking at past issues they far outnumber minority mutants Im starting to wonder folks just paranoid with the sloooow social shifts and get uncomfortable AF recognizing the similarity between them and the 616 Flatscans
Which is understandable I would be to

All I suggest is a sign that the X Men aren't spinning their wheels. I know they are stuck in a status quo, but until Hickman entered the picture all X Men stories were stuck in an endless loop. Spider Man is making progress with MJ at least. The Avengers are trying to make a better place for everyone to live in. I fear that once Hickman is gone we go back to stories were mutants will end up in unavoidable death camps again because of the fact they must always be hated and feared. Edit: Plus humans are even more paranoid about the drug system with Kraoka to they point they were killing humans supporting mutants in X Force.

[Electricmastro]

All I suggest is a sign that the X Men aren't spinning their wheels. I know they are stuck in a status quo, but until Hickman entered the picture all X Men stories were stuck in an endless loop. Spider Man is making progress with MJ at least. The Avengers are trying to make a better place for everyone to live in. I fear that once Hickman is gone we go back to stories were mutants will end up in unavoidable death camps again because of the fact they must always be hated and feared. Edit: Plus humans are even more paranoid about the drug system with Kraoka to they point they were killing humans supporting mutants in X Force.

I’ve heard that writers were sort of writing them in an apocalyptic endless loop like you said because of then popularity of Days of Future Past + the X-Men movie rights compelling Marvel to have the X-Men be in a more downplayed role away from the rest of the Marvel Universe in the 2000s and most of the 2010s, but I’m not sure how true that is.

I hope that The Avengers are written to be genuinely wholehearted in the making a better place too alongside Xavier’s dream of properly peaceful coexistence, unlike with the ultimately failed attempted from Uncanny Avengers. Hickman definitely have definitely put more intelligence and nuance into the whole “hatred and fear” jargon past writers have repeated on with no intelligent drawing from real life Civil Rights for example, but Hickman has put a more interestingly compelling twist on it by having the mutants not only be able to speak with the human leaders on a high stand, but also possibly compelling less of the world hate them by compelling them politically and economically, with some humans getting killed for siding with the suspicious mutants adding another interesting factor. Hope Hickman’s changes will be long-lasting enough to move away more from the “hate and fear” lunacy as we knew it with death camps and all, with no intelligent analysis made in favor of ramping the atrocities up to get more attention and sell more comics, and something more varied and actually informed more from real life where real life minorities have, despite grim outlooks, progressed closer to a society with more justice present in society after enough pressure and communication has been made to the higher-ups. This isn’t to say prejudice doesn’t exist in the present, but that the justice and the good always prevails sooner or later to stomp out more injustice, and I myself very much hope that Professor X accomplishes his dream, like he said, to the fullest to the point of having a human/mutant society that, while not necessarily perfect, still has that dream as having been done with considerably effective progress.