How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Huntsman Spider]

To be honest, the only thing that I'm seeing from those criticizing Krakoa and how mutants conduct themselves is a mixture of the Tall Poppy Syndrome and the agreeable minority paradigm. Considering what both of those terms represent and the intent behind the suggestion that mutants should continue to kiss up to humanity as they continue to try and extinguish their very existence is a sentiment that disgusts me, honestly. I can't bring myself to respect those views, especially when the flatscans, including other heroes, have done absolutely nothing for mutantkind, but try to keep them "in their place".

Long story short: #NotAllFlatscans

Been a while, but you do speak truth, as uncompromisingly as ever.

[Steel Inquisitor]

To be honest, the only thing that I'm seeing from those criticizing Krakoa and how mutants conduct themselves is a mixture of the Tall Poppy Syndrome and the agreeable minority paradigm. Considering what both of those terms represent and the intent behind the suggestion that mutants should continue to kiss up to humanity as they continue to try and extinguish their very existence is a sentiment that disgusts me, honestly. I can't bring myself to respect those views, especially when the flatscans, including other heroes, have done absolutely nothing for mutantkind, but try to keep them "in their place".

Long story short: #NotAllFlatscans

Krakoa shouldn't be immune from being criticised when they do bad things or become a haven for super-villains to evade justice. Conflating with criticising the mutant super-villains getting away with murder ins't the same as disrespecting your average mutants. Did you think what the X-men were doing was "kissing up" to humans? Or do you want war between the species because you're not advocating harmony between the species - I am.

It's like asking mutants not to be upset if Graydon Creed won the presidency while Krakoa puts mutant super-villains at that level despite doing worse things than he did and they'll do it again when given the opportunity.

Mutant progression has nothing to do with the characters, that's the niche the X-men fulfill, as well as the boundaries between imprints editorially. This is fiction, not all the rules of real life apply.

In Marvel all of us would be 'flatscans.'

Well...when you put it like that...it's the most direct analogy to the sentiment on Black Americans and what's happening across America right now.

And in that light, I'm going to be looking at a few posters in here quite differently because if they can spout that rhetoric towards fictional characters...

It's a bad analogy. There are no Black people who have done what the equivalent of the Brotherhood of Mutants, the Marauders or Apocalypse and his minions. What's going on right now with Black Lives Matter isn't about protecting monsters or advocating supremacy based on what race they are, people are making that argument but they're on the white supremacy side. Because that's what super-villain mutants are based on, the mirror of the evils of humanity. They don't become good because they have the x-gene, and they definitely don't become good after the years they've harmed everyone from humans to mutants and other races in Marvel. You may as well being saying Magneto Was Right.

It's been very enlightening how various fictional minorities, like the Morlocks, Scarlet Witch and Thunderbird, get thrown under the bus to win arguments on the internet. The argument that people care so much about mutants losses its consistency.

Edit: Simply put, it's insulting to conflate Black Lives Matter as though it agrees with mutant super-villains who are defined by ideologies which entail Might Makes Right, Master Races and Survival of the Fittest. It's telling which side on this topic a person's on and it's not with the protesters. They're for equal rights and access to the freedoms everyone should in America (and the world), like the X-men used to believe.

[Electricmastro]

To be honest, the only thing that I'm seeing from those criticizing Krakoa and how mutants conduct themselves is a mixture of the Tall Poppy Syndrome and the agreeable minority paradigm. Considering what both of those terms represent and the intent behind the suggestion that mutants should continue to kiss up to humanity as they continue to try and extinguish their very existence is a sentiment that disgusts me, honestly. I can't bring myself to respect those views, especially when the flatscans, including other heroes, have done absolutely nothing for mutantkind, but try to keep them "in their place".

Long story short: #NotAllFlatscans

Of course having the possibility of Hickman turning Krakoa completely on its head despite him saying it’s here to always stay or whatever, the only personal negative I’ve had is the sort of cold/cynical/military-esque personalities from the X-Men. Whether or not their personalities are justified isn’t the relevant point for me there, as it’s not a matter of right of wrong, but simply me not enjoying/jelling with the attitudes as often. That said, I do praise Hickman for attempting to break away more from the extinguishing existence, like you mentioned, in making every day fell like Days of Future Past is around the corner, which suffice to say has become a very tiresome approach. Hickman has actually a writer that has put considerable weight behind the potential for Xavier’s dream and isn’t just writing them like it’s a “hated and feared torture porn fetish,” as well as incorporating real life concepts that the mutants are contributing to such as the economy and healthcare into the mix, going back to Booker T. Washington talking about blacks’ contributions to society I suppose. Perhaps Hickman will have more of the human heroes actually attempt to reorganize their approaches and help out the X-Men more, in light of where previous series like Uncanny Avengers failed, too.

[Veitha]

Krakoa shouldn't be immune from being criticised when they do bad things or become a haven for super-villains to evade justice. Conflating with criticising the mutant super-villains getting away with murder ins't the same as disrespecting your average mutants. Did you think what the X-men were doing was "kissing up" to humans? Or do you want war between the species because you're not advocating harmony between the species - I am.

It's like asking mutants not to be upset if Graydon Creed won the presidency while Krakoa puts mutant super-villains at that level despite doing worse things than he did and they'll do it again when given the opportunity.

Mutant progression has nothing to do with the characters, that's the niche the X-men fulfill, as well as the boundaries between imprints editorially. This is fiction, not all the rules of real life apply.

In Marvel all of us would be 'flatscans.'



It's a bad analogy. There are no Black people who have done what the equivalent of the Brotherhood of Mutants, the Marauders or Apocalypse and his minions. What's going on right now with Black Lives Matter isn't about protecting monsters or advocating supremacy based on what race they are, people are making that argument but they're on the white supremacy side. Because that's what super-villain mutants are based on, the mirror of the evils of humanity. They don't become good because they have the x-gene, and they definitely don't become good after the years they've harmed everyone from humans to mutants and other races in Marvel. You may as well being saying Magneto Was Right.

It's been very enlightening how various fictional minorities, like the Morlocks, Scarlet Witch and Thunderbird, get thrown under the bus to win arguments on the internet. The argument that people care so much about mutants losses its consistency.

Edit: Simply put, it's insulting to conflate Black Lives Matter as though it agrees with mutant super-villains who are defined by ideologies which entail Might Makes Right, Master Races and Survival of the Fittest. It's telling which side on this topic a person's on and it's not with the protesters. They're for equal rights and access to the freedoms everyone should in America (and the world), like the X-men used to believe.

It's an analogy, it doesn't have to be 1:1. There's similarities to the situation.

And can you stop trying to make us racist because we don't like Wanda? It has nothing to do with her being a Romani, but it has all to do with her committing Genocide. Blame the writers for using her.

As for the - yet again - commento about supervillains on Krakoa, see my previous reply to your same argument in the previous page. Same for harmony among species. In that case, by feat alone, humans should be the one to put in the effort, not mutants.

[Steel Inquisitor]

It's an analogy, it doesn't have to be 1:1. There's similarities to the situation.

The analogy has have something in common with the argument, not be exact opposite. You're not supporting Artie and Leech with your position, you're supporting Apocalypse and Selene as if the former is the same as the latter.

And can you stop trying to make us racist because we don't like Wanda? It has nothing to do with her being a Romani, but it has all to do with her committing Genocide. Blame the writers for using her.

It's not just the racism, it's the misogyny. The writers aren't forcing anyone to react like they do, that falls on the reader. Bendis, despite his flaws with writing Wanda, knew what she was doing wasn't in her right mind. While Sinister is cheered on for doing the same thing with a smile.

As for the - yet again - commento about supervillains on Krakoa, see my previous reply to your same argument in the previous page. Same for harmony among species.

Your previous reply wasn't compelling. Equating mutants like Artie and Leech to monsters like Selene, Apocalypse and Sabretooth is dishonest. It's at the root of why krakoa in its current state is going to fall, because its a dictatorship which would prefer to protect the worst mutants than try to create harmony with humanity.

In that case, by feat alone, humans should be the one to put in the effort, not mutants.

That's what Magneto would say, not Xavier. Okay, classic Xavier - not the one Hickman's writing.

[Veitha]

The analogy has have something in common with the argument, not be exact opposite. You're not supporting Artie and Leech with your position, you're supporting Apocalypse and Selene as if the former is the same as the latter.



It's not just the racism, it's the misogyny. The writers aren't forcing anyone to react like they do, that falls on the reader. Bendis, despite his flaws with writing Wanda, knew what she was doing wasn't in her right mind. While Sinister is cheered on for doing the same thing with a smile.



Your previous reply wasn't compelling. Equating mutants like Artie and Leech to monsters like Selene, Apocalypse and Sabretooth is dishonest. It's at the root of why krakoa in its current state is going to fall, because its a dictatorship which would prefer to protect the worst mutants than try to create harmony with humanity.




That's what Magneto would say, not Xavier. Okay, classic Xavier - not the one Hickman's writing.

The similarities between minorities and the mutant situation are clearly there. As I was saying with Devaishwarya, just look at what Scott told Sue. You don't want to see them because you're stuck with this villain thing.

My not-compelling reply explained why they're working with villains so I won't got there again. And I never compared Artie and Leech to Selene and Apocalypse. Give it a re-read.

In her recent appearances Wanda was never written as a character sympathetic to the mutant cause and she also didn't care about what she did during M'Day, and that's her current characterization. And since we are X-Men fans who read the Decimation years, that thing makes us dislike the character. It's really simple logic and you don't need to throw in mysoginy because you can't progress your argument.

[BroHomo]

In her recent appearances Wanda was never written as a character sympathetic to the mutant cause and she also didn't care about what she did during M'Day, and that's her current characterization. And since we are X-Men fans who read the Decimation years, that thing makes us dislike the character. It's really simple logic and you don't need to throw in mysoginy because you can't progress your argument.

YAs!!! Sooooo much truth in this....
Im getting Da Vapors

[marhawkman]

Thanks. I feel like there's some double standard when it comes to the X-Men. Like, it's all good if they suffer but act like superheroes but if they fight back they're villains.

I'm pretty sure the first X-Men comics had this as a plot point. Xavier's strategy was to show the general public that mutants could be a force for good. But like you said it means living by a double standard.

[Veitha]

YAs!!! Sooooo much truth in this....
Im getting Da Vapors

[Steel Inquisitor]

The similarities between minorities and the mutant situation are clearly there. As I was saying with Devaishwarya, just look at what Scott told Sue. You don't want to see them because you're stuck with this villain thing.

Don't move the goal posts to dodge how Krkaoa's protecting super-villains with bodycounts larger than small countries. What's going on between Scott and Sue is a separate subject to what we were discussing. Which was about krkaoa's super-villain problem and how they'd impede their country's reputation with rational humans who were open to accepting mutants. You know I'm right about the super-villains and you're unable to defend that stance because you know the argument falls apart under scrutiny.

My not-compelling reply explained why they're working with villains so I won't got there again. And I never compared Artie and Leech to Selene and Apocalypse. Give it a re-read.

Yes, you did. By shifting the argument over to every mutant it's categorising all mutants together, including the super-villains. Diluting the subject and making mutants like Artie a shield for Apocalypse. By associating super-villains like Apocalypse with mutants like Artie Apocalypse is no longer seen as a monster he's just a mutant. Forget that he tried to destroy humanity in "Blood of Apocalypse," he's just like Artie. Harmless. Forget how he possessed Cyclops and drove him insane. He's just a mutant trying to look after himself, all rugged and self determined. Forget how he was a dictator who ruined Cable's future and destroyed Cable's life. What sort of monster would want to throw Apocalypse in jail? He hasn't hurt anyone, pinky swear. Like I said, it's not compelling. And you have the gall to compare his plight to Black Lives Matter?

In her recent appearances Wanda was never written as a character sympathetic to the mutant cause and she also didn't care about what she did during M'Day, and that's her current characterization. And since we are X-Men fans who read the Decimation years, that thing makes us dislike the character. It's really simple logic and you don't need to throw in mysoginy because you can't progress your argument.

That's your opinion on what you want Wanda to be like, not Wanda from the comics. You can read the Decimation years without coming to that conclusion with Wanda, M-Day's just an excuse - we know this by comparing the reaction to other villainous characters. It's simple but it's not logic. The misogyny wasn't to convince you, it was convincing the lurkers it's very clear those subjects are not going to change your mind. I half expect comments about SJW's and how Wanda should stay in the kitchen.

[Electricmastro]

I'm pretty sure the first X-Men comics had this as a plot point. Xavier's strategy was to show the general public that mutants could be a force for good. But like you said it means living by a double standard.

It’s interesting, because the first X-Men comic talked about evil mutants and how evil mutants want to destroy mankind, and doesn’t even really go into about the reverse of that. There’s even a general that actually promises to honor the X-Men for saving a military base that Magneto was invading. And sure, there would be crowd riots and Sentinels, but I don’t think that was any more out of place than mad scientists designing robots to destroy the Fantastic Four or a simple misunderstanding of a crowd disliking them because Skrulls impersonated them for example. It probably wasn’t until Days of Future Past that it was consistently written that many humans were always actively against mutants, even if it wasn’t informed by real life events and was more informed by a desire to sell as many comics as possible by ramping up the drama by having the mutants go through more atrocities.

[Veitha]

Don't move the goal posts to dodge how Krkaoa's protecting super-villains with bodycounts larger than small countries. What's going on between Scott and Sue is a separate subject to what we were discussing. Which was about krkaoa's super-villain problem and how they'd impede their country's reputation with rational humans who were open to accepting mutants. You know I'm right about the super-villains and you're unable to defend that stance because you know the argument falls apart under scrutiny.



Yes, you did. By shifting the argument over to every mutant it's categorising all mutants together, including the super-villains. Diluting the subject and making mutants like Artie a shield for Apocalypse. By associating super-villains like Apocalypse with mutants like Artie Apocalypse is no longer seen as a monster he's just a mutant. Forget that he tried to destroy humanity in "Blood of Apocalypse," he's just like Artie. Harmless. Forget how he possessed Cyclops and drove him insane. He's just a mutant trying to look after himself, all rugged and self determined. Forget how he was a dictator who ruined Cable's future and destroyed Cable's life. What sort of monster would want to throw Apocalypse in jail? He hasn't hurt anyone, pinky swear. Like I said, it's not compelling. And you have the gall to compare his plight to Black Lives Matter?



That's your opinion on what you want Wanda to be like, not Wanda from the comics. You can read the Decimation years without coming to that conclusion with Wanda, M-Day's just an excuse - we know this by comparing the reaction to other villainous characters. It's simple but it's not logic. The misogyny wasn't to convince you, it was convincing the lurkers it's very clear those subjects are not going to change your mind. I half expect comments about SJW's and how Wanda should stay in the kitchen.

This is the real life minorities thread, you're the one who's shifting every comment to the villains on Krakoa and when you get an answer about why there are villains on Krakoa you call it "dodging". I answered you and defended my argument. And no one compared the villains to anything, it's you that keep throwing them into every convo.

Wanda in Uncanny Avengers was practically how I described her. And that's one of her most recent and prominent arcs.

I guess our conversation should end if all we're going to get as a counter argument is a comparison between Leech and Apocalypse.

[Devaishwarya]

Keep speaking thruths, Vietha.

[Veitha]

I mean, it's always the same conversation in all the recent threads. We're probably all bored because no new comics so we all keep discussing the same old stuff. I get it in a way hahaha. New material might give us new stuff to argue about.

[Devaishwarya]

I mean, it's always the same conversation in all the recent threads. We're probably all bored because no new comics so we all keep discussing the same old stuff. I get it in a way hahaha. New material might give us new stuff to argue about.

Some of us yes...a select few, perhaps not.
I'm reminded of the recent past here on these boards where every thread had Jean vs Emma commentary regardless the thread specifically and directly involved Jean or Emma.
Here, we're talking about minorities and we get inundated with villains and Wanda.