How much has the X-Men as a reflection of real life minorities changed overtime?

[Veitha]

If the Nation was started by the Justice League, had several Justice League members as it's ruling body, and then everyone who had ever been a member of the Justice League decided to move there, then yeah, I'd say it should at least TRY to live up to the standards of the Justice League.

The X-men have not had the same standards as the JL or the Avengers for years now and they've always been pretty open about letting villains in their ranks. And it's a mutant nation, not an X-men nation.

Also, the JL or the Avengers would have much more support than the X-Men by other nations that could make it easier for them to follow all of their "standards". Besides, current Krakoa is still helping humans.

[BroHomo]

If the Nation was started by the Justice League, had several Justice League members as it's ruling body, and then everyone who had ever been a member of the Justice League decided to move there, then yeah, I'd say it should at least TRY to live up to the standards of the Justice League.

Yes because...Folks like Max Lords, Bizarro, and Lex eFFIn Luthor are paragons of virtue in society

[Huntsman Spider]

Yes because...Folks like Max Lords, Bizarro, and Lex eFFIn Luthor are paragons of virtue in society

At least Bizarro usually doesn't know any better. Lord and Luthor have no such excuses and are very deliberate and intentional about the evil they do. Hell, Lord and Luthor are essentially bigoted against superhuman beings in general, and in Luthor's case, especially against Superman and other superpowered aliens, believing they need to be at best controlled for the good of regular humanity, or exterminated at worst. Sound familiar?

Also, kudos to the poster that quoted James Baldwin. Some hard, necessary truth there.

[Ichijinijisanji]

[QUOTE=ARkadelphia;5008480]

The people who think they're more likely to be murdered by a mutant than a human are just being prejudice plain and simple.

Do you have the stats to back that up? Put another way...

Uh where are you getting this from?
what issue?
what panel?

What I mean is: how do you know that humans aren’t in fact more likely to be murdered by a mutant than another human in the marvel universe? Have there been any stories that have stated that as fact?

whatever stories we've seen so far.
Humans are more likely to be killed by supervillain of the day, who're usually human or extraterrestrial . Magneto was the most prominent human killing mutant villain, and he hasn't been that since the 80s.
There's some random blips where a random mutant loses control, but they're few and far in between, like the 1001 issue (not all that different from starbrand tbh)

[Sutekh]

Also, the JL or the Avengers would have much more support than the X-Men by other nations that could make it easier for them to follow all of their "standards". Besides, current Krakoa is still helping humans.

And it's not like an Avengers Island Nation wouldn't be crawling with ex-villains, also...

Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Hulk, Namor, Moondragon, Swordsman, Vision, Wonder Man, etc., etc.

[Steel Inquisitor]

whatever stories we've seen so far.
Humans are more likely to be killed by supervillain of the day, who're usually human or extraterrestrial . Magneto was the most prominent human killing mutant villain, and he hasn't been that since the 80s.
There's some random blips where a random mutant loses control, but they're few and far in between, like the 1001 issue (not all that different from starbrand tbh)

There are several mutant super-villians who have a long career before joining krakoa, yet people continue to act as thought X-men have only fought Sentinels and mutant bigots since the 80's. Magneto's had prominent storylines being a super-vlllians after the 80's but the narrative is that he retired permenantly from being a super-villain since he became a principal at Xavier's. For example:



It's not like what he's done hasn't been discussed or hard to research unless its intentional or the other option: the crimes that they've committed were seen as not being villainous. And no, we're not talking about random mutants who have lost control. What's with the whitewashing of the mutant super-villains?

[Saffron]

I say that to say this, there will always be privileged and/or ignorant moderates advocating for the slow "progression" toward security and equality for a marginalized group that are fighting for their lives - just like in real life. "what about the villains! they've killed humans and mutants" = "what about black on black crime!" "They're calling themselves the next step in evolution? they're advocating for mutant supremacy!" = "Black Lives Matter? All lives matter, saying specifically black lives matter is black supremacy!" it's the same thing, a gaslight, and if you truly believe these things then you're part of the problem. period.

This right here is why the metaphor is clumsy at best, insulting at worst, especially in post-Morrison X-Men. BLM aren't protecting mass murderers and people who tried to take over the world. Nor are they going around calling themselves homo superior and proclaiming they're the "next step in evolution" (which btw is scientifically nonsensical). The underlying message of BLM is that humans should be treated equally, not that black people are a different (sub)species. That's what racists claim.

What annoys me the most, I think, is that the allegory seems to be used in place of discussing real life prejudice. Am I to believe there are no mutant homophobes? Does a white middle class mutant experience more hardship than an impoverished black human? I think the X-Men works best when they're vaguely outcasts or the "other", i.e when it's less specific what they represent, especially if they're going to be largely written by middle aged white dudes.

[Devaishwarya]

The X-Men as an analogy and allegory don't represent any specific minority or group because they;re meat to represent All minorities and disenfranchised groups that a reader, any reader, may belong to. They're truly meant to be Universal in the relatability.

They're not a 1:1 real-world societal analogy...(although I will admit in certain instances they do come pretty close.)

So no...there are no mutant homophobes, and a white middle class mutant will experience more hardship than an impoverished black human.
Because...in the Marvel Universe, in the X-Universe...if you are a Gay, Black Mutant or a straight, White Mutant you are feared and hated with equal venom.
In XM:Red 01...Jean had to save a mutant child from a mob that included her mother...granted they were influenced by Cassandra Nova but Jean herself noted how much the entire world felt so angry and divided.

[skyvolt2000]

And it's not like an Avengers Island Nation wouldn't be crawling with ex-villains, also...

Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Hulk, Namor, Moondragon, Swordsman, Vision, Wonder Man, etc., etc.

I think the issue comes down to this-

Do you keep your enemy mutants out or allow them in.

If we got by Batman's mindset in McDuffie's JLA run with Jason Rusch-he said Jason is too Powerful to be left UNWATCHED-so he's a JLA member now.

So if you are the X-men would you want all your baddies leftg to fend for themselves?

What's stopping a Magneto from teaming up with Doom and taking out Karona? True he could still do while living there but the chances of him being caught is way higher there.



Now on the flip side any of those baddies goes rouge or whatever-EVERYONE is going to be seeing what the X-Men will do about it.

Are they going to act like the Senate after a certain impeachment?

Are they going to throw up the Blue Shield like some cops hide behind?

Are they going to treat them like royalty like some black communities have done with drug dealers and killers?

Or are they going to do what is right and hold those individuals accountable for thier acts?

Because in all scenerios SOMEONE is going to hold EVERY mutant accountable for the actions of a few no matter what.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think the issue comes down to this-

Do you keep your enemy mutants out or allow them in.

If we got by Batman's mindset in McDuffie's JLA run with Jason Rusch-he said Jason is too Powerful to be left UNWATCHED-so he's a JLA member now.

So if you are the X-men would you want all your baddies leftg to fend for themselves?

What's stopping a Magneto from teaming up with Doom and taking out Karona? True he could still do while living there but the chances of him being caught is way higher there.



Now on the flip side any of those baddies goes rouge or whatever-EVERYONE is going to be seeing what the X-Men will do about it.

Are they going to act like the Senate after a certain impeachment?

Are they going to throw up the Blue Shield like some cops hide behind?

Are they going to treat them like royalty like some black communities have done with drug dealers and killers?

Or are they going to do what is right and hold those individuals accountable for thier acts?

Because in all scenerios SOMEONE is going to hold EVERY mutant accountable for the actions of a few no matter what.

Wasn't that why Sabretooth was dealt with in the conclusion of House/Powers of X? Even if Krakoa wasn't going to let him be subject to human justice, the Quiet Council wasn't going to let him go free on Krakoa, because they knew he was an irredeemably, irrevocably murderous bastard who could easily turn his claws on fellow mutants as well as humans.

To correlate with what's been happening in the real world, just because people (mutants in X-Men, minorities in real life) don't want to live under an unjust justice system that treats certain people as inherently less than human and therefore less deserving of life, liberty, and the ability to pursue happiness, doesn't mean they want a world where the worst sorts of people are allowed to run amok. The key, of course, is to create a system that can and will treat everyone justly and fairly, as opposed to privileging some and disenfranchising others.

[Ichijinijisanji]

This right here is why the metaphor is clumsy at best, insulting at worst, especially in post-Morrison X-Men. BLM aren't protecting mass murderers and people who tried to take over the world. Nor are they going around calling themselves homo superior and proclaiming they're the "next step in evolution" (which btw is scientifically nonsensical). The underlying message of BLM is that humans should be treated equally, not that black people are a different (sub)species. That's what racists claim.

What annoys me the most, I think, is that the allegory seems to be used in place of discussing real life prejudice. Am I to believe there are no mutant homophobes? Does a white middle class mutant experience more hardship than an impoverished black human? I think the X-Men works best when they're vaguely outcasts or the "other", i.e when it's less specific what they represent, especially if they're going to be largely written by middle aged white dudes.

i don't think there's a "middle class" mutant

Most of them can't seemto have jobs when they're out, and they're funded by impossibly rich mutants like xavier and emma frost

[Steel Inquisitor]

Wasn't that why Sabretooth was dealt with in the conclusion of House/Powers of X? Even if Krakoa wasn't going to let him be subject to human justice, the Quiet Council wasn't going to let him go free on Krakoa, because they knew he was an irredeemably, irrevocably murderous bastard who could easily turn his claws on fellow mutants as well as humans.

They bungled Sabretooth, who they never should have trusted in the first place because he's Sabretooth. What did they expect was going to happen?It's not like they don't know how difficult it to keep him controlled, anyone who authorised sending him should get a trial themselves for their actions with Sabretooth. Human justice is inherently corrupt and oppressive, the justice system on Krakoa is even more of a joke. The last sentence described about sizeable portion of the population of krakoa.

To correlate with what's been happening in the real world, just because people (mutants in X-Men, minorities in real life) don't want to live under an unjust justice system that treats certain people as inherently less than human and therefore less deserving of life, liberty, and the ability to pursue happiness, doesn't mean they want a world where the worst sorts of people are allowed to run amok.

As long as the victims, human and mutant alike, of unrepentant mass murdering psychopaths not only don't get justice in the courts they get promoted to the highest positions in the government. Wanting to do to that, and it working out in practice is not the same and there should be vastly more in-fighting than we've seen. They've traded one unjust system for another. And somehow this excuses working with cartels, you'd think various mutants wouldn't be ok with that.

The key, of course, is to create a system that can and will treat everyone justly and fairly, as opposed to privileging some and disenfranchising others.

They'e failed doing this in their own state, they don't have democracy and there have no counter measures to hold politicians accountable in the Quiet Council. Apocalypse abused Rogue by putting her in a magic prison and he wasn't put on trial. Xavier shrugged it off like nothing, all he was concern about was whether he was loyal to Krakoa. Krkaoa is filled with mutants with privileges and has a class system.

[BroHomo]

Krkaoa is filled with mutants with privileges and has a class system.

Name one, juuuuust one country that doesn't.
Go on I'll wait.....
......
Exxxxxxactly.
Tenacity may be a good quality but just lobbing random factoids to see which sticks only makes your arguments look weaker :/

EDIT:When a person makes wild outlandish claims they usually provide references that support and confirm their claims, otherwise they run the risk of looking like a liar

[Steel Inquisitor]

Name one, juuuuust one country that doesn't.
Go on I'll wait.....
......
Exxxxxxactly.
Tenacity may be a good quality but just lobbing random factoids to see which sticks only makes your arguments look weaker :/

They're not random, my arguments have structure. I use facts I'm not reliant on changing whatever sounds good to win arguments like you've done. It's a big reason I stoped responding, there's no point.

EDIT:When a person makes wild outlandish claims they usually provide references that support and confirm their claims, otherwise they run the risk of looking like a liar

I have numerous times, except facts isn't what you're interested in it. There's nothing left to say, you're amusing but I can get greater depth in discussion from practically anyone else.

'Outlandish claims.' That's a good one! I like the jokes you have and your style. Pity we can't agree on things but oh well, Hickman's going to bring everything down eventually may as well well revel in the festivities while you can. These imposters will be interesting additions to the rogues gallery.

[Devaishwarya]

Why?!? BroHomo...WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!?