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  1. #31
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    there are some things I didn't like about Shooter (the Ms. Marvel pregancy issue for one) but speaking as one of the few here that read those comics in the 1980's, I thought it made for a fun and cohesive Marvel Universe. It's hard to describe but for example the first Secret Wars occured during his tenure. And instead of "putting the toys back in the box", it lead to some changes that effected the SW participants. Just think about Black Suit Spiderman for one. Granted, his explanation for having Doom on Battleworld was a bit dicey since his physical body was blown to bits in Fantastic Four #260. I don't know if John Byrne was totally on board with that. But he does lead to a resolution (where a Doombot is NOT used :-) )when the Beyonder appears and Byrne addresses the issue of Doom being on Battleworld towards the end of his Fantastic Four. One wonders if anyone would really bother with that today.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    there are some things I didn't like about Shooter (the Ms. Marvel pregancy issue for one) but speaking as one of the few here that read those comics in the 1980's, I thought it made for a fun and cohesive Marvel Universe. It's hard to describe but for example of the first Secret Wars occured during his tenure. And instead of "putting the toys back in the box", it lead to some changes that effected the SW participants. Just think about Black Suit Spiderman for one. Granted, his explanation for having Doom on Battleworld was a bit dicey since his physical body was blown to bits in Fantastic Four #260. I don't know if John Byrne was totally on board with that. But he does lead to a resolution (where a Doombot is NOT used :-) )when the Beyonder appears and Byrne addresses the issue of Doom being on Battleworld towards the end of his Fantastic Four. One wonders if anyone would really bother with that today.
    Exactly.

    The idea of continuity being restrictive and limiting storytelling doesn't have any evidence in support of it. The idea of no continuity and no integration allowing writers more freedom likewise has no evidence.

    The Quesada regime (which mostly has continued after him under EIC successors who have far less power and say than he, while he was CCO or now, Executive water carrier or something after Feige took his job) basically had a weakly integrated continuity while also restricting readers.

    I mean I like Cantwell's series and he deserved to tell his story without readers wondering whether Doom in that story is continuous to the Doom of Savage Avengers and ASM (and I speak of someone who likes the idea of Doom in ASM). It spoils the suspense if you know obviously that nothing consequential will happen there. Sure on one level as readers you might know that but the publisher/editor has a job to pretend and make-believe that it will, the absence of that shows a lack of conviction.

  3. #33
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    I think and again speaking as someone who actually bought the Fantastic Four, Avengers, etc. when Stan and Jack were still writing and drawing the books, continuity is what made Marvel different from other comics, particularly DC. How and when do people think the Marvel Universe was created for cryin' out loud? Again, I'm going to use Doom as an example. At the end of the arc where Doom steals the power of the Surfer, we just see this blinding light to signal that Doom has fallen for Reed's trap and his hit the barrier Galactus put around the Earth to keep the Surfer from escaping his punishment. Doom next appears in Daredevil 36-38, again written by Stan Lee. Stan also did something different for those days....he tells the reader where Doom's story last left off in a caption box. This will direct the reader to the source if they want to read the FF story. Now that was a back then since it was hard to get back issues from your Rexall drugs or wherever a comics spinner rack was. But looking at that today? This is a great cue to new readers to go lk up that issue. As for myself, I really miss those footnotes today's comics



    Then we get the continuation of what happened

    [

  4. #34
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    Yeah, thought I'd bring this back and wonder how much this was bugging others. I mean, currently in Marvel we have Captain America running around in multiple titles and with the Avengers, yet he's on the run and isn't even Cap in his own book! How does that even work? Team books don't seem to affect solos at the moment, which makes me wonder what's currently happening.

    Marvel is known for its tight continuity. It wasn't even that long ago where everything was connected. Remember in the JMS run where Spider-Man as an Avenger affected his solo book? I feel like if it happened today, it wouldn't.

    It's weird because it seems selective. The Dawn of X titles are definitely connected, as are the Spider-books. Tie-ins to events are also a big thing (because there are so many...) yet we have stuff like this where inconsistency is across the board. What, is C.B. Cebulski just lazy or does he not care? I think he's done good for Marvel since taking EiC, but the continuity issues stand out.

    Maybe the idea is he doesn't want to limit writers, but honestly, the writers have used continuity just fine in the past to make great stories. It's not doing anyone any favors to just ignore other books.

    What do you guys think?

  5. #35
    Amazing Member Marvel Wars's Avatar
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    I think even if there is some continuity problems currently like with Cap America or Dr.Doom, it's became a little better than some years ago. Maybe thanks to Cebulsky I don't know...
    But yeah there is still some big errors like just recently in the Mile Morales tie in to the event Absolute Carnage and that is unacceptable.
    I don't know if you read DC currently but man, their continuity is completely wrecked now with the Infected,Leviathan,JL/Doom War events unfolding at the same time.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rrobin View Post
    The books donít occur at the same time, even back in the day this was the case.
    Yeah, but there was always a brief footnote at the bottom of the page to clarify things. No reason we can't have that now. It's laziness on the part of editorial.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Because we saw what happened when Spidey revealed his ID.

    Thor is Thor, Rogers is Cap and Banner is Hulk. And you said it yourself...'why not create new ones?'...why replace existing characters instead? Wilson has his own identity as Falcon...why make him Cap? It diminishes him. Why make Jane Thor...instead of giving her her own thing? Which they eventually did. Why kill off Banner to replace him with Cho...just to bring Banner back to change Cho to Brawn?

    I am not saying they should stagnate the characters...they should evolve...but not at the expense of the core of who they are.

    And I am not saying every single moment needs to be referenced and tied into every other moment...but the larger world needs to be respected.
    I couldn't have said it better myself.

  8. #38
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvel Wars View Post
    I think even if there is some continuity problems currently like with Cap America or Dr.Doom, it's became a little better than some years ago. Maybe thanks to Cebulski I don't know...
    But yeah there is still some big errors like just recently in the Mile Morales tie in to the event Absolute Carnage and that is unacceptable.
    I don't know if you read DC currently but man, their continuity is completely wrecked now with the Infected,Leviathan,JL/Doom War events unfolding at the same time.
    For a relative newcomer to comics, at least Christopher Cantwell did give other writers a window of time to account for Doom's other activities in books like Savage Avengers or the upcoming X-Men / Fantastic Four. Should they choose to do so, they can always point to this note in Doctor Doom #1 that says some weeks pass by between the time the comic begins and when the Antlion disaster occurs that sets up the current arc in the series where he is a fugitive in NYC etc. So the opening is there should the other writers choose to mention it. Of course, these days they seldom use text boxes like Stan did in the panels in my earlier post. Again, we have Stan Lee, and later Roy Thomas for at least making that attempt. I do remember that when Bill Jemas and Joe Quesada were ion charge they were totally against text boxes in comics at all. I think while they were in charge, they were mostly discouraged if not outright banned.


  9. #39
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    For many years I have felt the marvel universe has been very lacking in a cohesive feel

    It's rarely feels like the books take place in the same mythos to me outside of another crossover or event

    This I think has been down to a real lack of caring about presenting the in character mythos as one universe, probably because they think it helps sell books as trades and stops them looking dated

    Those might be fair reasons but to me it just makes the universe feel very thin

    I'm not getting into their events, they come up all over the place and to me rarely deliver

    But anyways, continuity and feeling like a cohesive universe, just not there any more for me

  10. #40
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Eh, Dooms er, way of speaking? Seems a tad off for me, but it was also the same in the 12 issue mini written by BMB a few years ago. Thors characterization by Cates in the new Thor ongoing was also...off... I felt. When did Thor become a gigantic jerk to everyone?

    What troubles me more is how pissy writers get when you point out these inconsistencies to them. I feel like some writers get downright vindictive, if not snotty, with readers that point these things out. I cant think of an entertainment medium where the creators get snotty with critics, but it seems to be a thing with comics.
    "I know you're in there Banner. I'll get you out!"
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "Would you give a guy a foot massage?"
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    "You said clear."
    "I said it looks clear."
    "Well what's it look like now?"
    "Looks clear."

  11. #41
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    This would seem to me to be something of a sign of the times that has been discussed elsewhere on these forums. Writers blow into a book with an arc they want to write, regardless of whether it even fits the characters involved or the extant backstory, then scoot to be replaced by a new writer doing a rinse and repeat.

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