October 2019 sales

[Frontier]

To be honest, that is what I'm entirely expected this 5g initiative to be about. I know classic fans hate to see the writing on the wall, but comics in it's current form is dying. It cannot sustain itself. And this is coming from someone who's essentially creating my own comic book company (though my method for delivering comics is going to be completely different from the standard big 2 method, that's a different story.) It has almost nothing to do with continuity, as solving that issue may provide a temporary bump just like reboots, but would do nothing to solve the lack of new readership. Marvel is doing constant reboots, variant covers, and more not to excel the market but just to sustain it. Without these methods, they would be in just as bad shape as DC is currently.

It seems more about the comics from where I'm looking.

IMO 5g is almost entirely about the cross-media marketplace, they know they cannot rely on just the big 7 any longer, especially with how bad the DCU ended up being. And while Sony is blowing up Miles Morales, and Disney+ is going with Ms.Marvel, She Hulk, and Moon Knight, DC is stuck since all of their eggs lie in their big 7 (primarily due to the chokehold these characters have on the DC universe, but that's a different story.) 5g is going to break those shackles to allow DC to tell different stories that they couldn't tell previously before. Especially in capturing diverse markets in the general audience that is almost impossible with their current offerings. One of DC's biggest success was wonder woman, while marvel released captain marvel. But DC then looks at the success at black panther, looks at their own properties and realize there is nothing they have in their stable that can hold up to that.

Aquaman and Wonder Woman both had very successful movies.

The Flash has a very successful TV show.

They are making a new Bruce Wayne Batman film with Robert Pattinson.

Superman will have a new TV show coming out.

So I don't think DC sees the Big 7 as needing to be replaced or done away with. And they quite a bit of content that isn't centered around the Big 7.

Or Miles Morales. Even before into the spiderverse, folks have been regularly asking the MCU when can we expect to see Miles Morales in Spider Man. Then Sony's Into The Spider Verse comes out and makes him the most popular new character to come out within the last decade. What does DC have for this? There best option may be blue beetle, but he hasn't had a stable series long enough to keep telling stories. He's gone through what, 3 series cancelations?

I mean, if we were using sale stability as a barometer for movies, Ant-Man and Carol wouldn't have gotten films to begin with. It's not really a barometer for success in outside media or the general public anymore.

This is what's 5g is about, IMO. DC, (and Marvel) knows comics are on life support due to the constraints of the comic book market, and will mostly be used as spring boards to be able to tell stories in other media properties in the future. So 5g is allowing them the best opportunity to reach the general audience. At the same time, it's going to give new stories that makes people like me excited. So while I'm all aboard the 5g initiative, I pretty sure I know what the reason is for this method, and it's not for comics.

Hopefully this doesn't make the franchise divisions even worse then they already are.

[leo619]

It seems more about the comics from where I'm looking.

Eh I'll disagree there. That's not to say the comics isn't a factor. I just think it's a smaller component with the major component being a focused on cross-media properties, especially with elements like diversity being a much stronger component for television/movies then it's comic book counterpart (though the demand for diverse characters is still requested in comics, it's no where near the same demand, or even expectation as it's television/movie counterpart)

Aquaman and Wonder Woman both had very successful movies.

The Flash has a very successful TV show.

They are making a new Bruce Wayne Batman film with Robert Pattinson.

Superman will have a new TV show coming out.

So I don't think DC sees the Big 7 as needing to be replaced or done away with. And they quite a bit of content that isn't centered around the Big 7.

My point wasn't that the Big 7 needs to be replaced or done away with, my point was that DC doesn't have anywhere near the breath of content necessary to reach out to necessary audiences. Yes, Superman is coming out a new tv show. Yes, there's a new batman show. What does that do? Focus on the same demographics that they reached out to before. Just look at the flash TV show, when you pointed out as being a success. Clearly a much more diverse product then even it's comic book counterpart, to the point to where we now have Wallace in the new52. Outside of the Big 7, which is already running it course and arguably doesn't have much more legs to stand on, DC doesn't have anywhere the depth of characters needed to reach out to the diverse demographics.
That is what 5g is allowing for DC, just like ANAD allowed for Marvel.

I mean, if we were using sale stability as a barometer for movies, Ant-Man and Carol wouldn't have gotten films to begin with. It's not really a barometer for success in outside media or the general public anymore.

Again, that wasn't my point. My point wasn't about the successful sales of the series but the cancelation preventing longevity of the comics to tell long, epic, overarching storylines. Carol's series has cancelled numerous times yes, but they've regularly been long running series that allows major storylines to be concluded. These storylines can then be inserted into video games, cartoons, movies and more. What's the longest running series blue beetle have? 20 issues? That's probably 2-3 arcs maximum. Essentially, Blue Beetle needs a long lasting series so he can have multiple arcs under his belt. Because right now, he arguably only has one major area, and that's the Reach.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

It seems more about the comics from where I'm looking.

Aquaman and Wonder Woman both had very successful movies.

The Flash has a very successful TV show.

They are making a new Bruce Wayne Batman film with Robert Pattinson.

Superman will have a new TV show coming out.

So I don't think DC sees the Big 7 as needing to be replaced or done away with. And they quite a bit of content that isn't centered around the Big 7.

I mean, if we were using sale stability as a barometer for movies, Ant-Man and Carol wouldn't have gotten films to begin with. It's not really a barometer for success in outside media or the general public anymore.

Hopefully this doesn't make the franchise divisions even worse then they already are.

To be honest, that is what I'm entirely expected this 5g initiative to be about. I know classic fans hate to see the writing on the wall, but comics in it's current form is dying. It cannot sustain itself. And this is coming from someone who's essentially creating my own comic book company (though my method for delivering comics is going to be completely different from the standard big 2 method, that's a different story.) It has almost nothing to do with continuity, as solving that issue may provide a temporary bump just like reboots, but would do nothing to solve the lack of new readership. Marvel is doing constant reboots, variant covers, and more not to excel the market but just to sustain it. Without these methods, they would be in just as bad shape as DC is currently.

IMO 5g is almost entirely about the cross-media marketplace, they know they cannot rely on just the big 7 any longer, especially with how bad the DCU ended up being. And while Sony is blowing up Miles Morales, and Disney+ is going with Ms.Marvel, She Hulk, and Moon Knight, DC is stuck since all of their eggs lie in their big 7 (primarily due to the chokehold these characters have on the DC universe, but that's a different story.) 5g is going to break those shackles to allow DC to tell different stories that they couldn't tell previously before. Especially in capturing diverse markets in the general audience that is almost impossible with their current offerings. One of DC's biggest success was wonder woman, while marvel released captain marvel. But DC then looks at the success at black panther, looks at their own properties and realize there is nothing they have in their stable that can hold up to that.

Or Miles Morales. Even before into the spiderverse, folks have been regularly asking the MCU when can we expect to see Miles Morales in Spider Man. Then Sony's Into The Spider Verse comes out and makes him the most popular new character to come out within the last decade. What does DC have for this? There best option may be blue beetle, but he hasn't had a stable series long enough to keep telling stories. He's gone through what, 3 series cancelations?

This is what's 5g is about, IMO. DC, (and Marvel) knows comics are on life support due to the constraints of the comic book market, and will mostly be used as spring boards to be able to tell stories in other media properties in the future. So 5g is allowing them the best opportunity to reach the general audience. At the same time, it's going to give new stories that makes people like me excited. So while I'm all aboard the 5g initiative, I pretty sure I know what the reason is for this method, and it's not for comics.

Interesting perspectives here. I think you both have good points. I remember when Marvel was doing their all new all different thing, fans saw it as them preparing some material for the MCU once Evans, RDJ and maybe Hemsworth move on. And they were more or less right since post endgame Marvel is clearly taking some ques from that era. Sam is still Falcon but he has the shield, hell, there are Iron Heart rumors, Hemsworth is thankfully still on board but they are doing the Jane thing. I wouldn't be surpised if they get a Artemis Cho as Hulk eventually. But on the other hand as Frontier pointed out, Dc is a different animal in that regards. They're probably never going to get to that point since their shared universe was a nonstarter. When Gadot and Momoa are done, they probably won't pass the torch to replacement characters, more likely just wait a good long while and reboot with a new actor. So from a synergy perspective, they have much less reason to do this than marvel did. It is however easy to see how a black Batman could generate valuable buzz/publicity. Aged up Jon as Superman and the second most popular Captain Boomerang as Flash though? Where's the hook in those?

[leo619]

Interesting perspectives here. I think you both have good points. I remember when Marvel was doing their all new all different thing, fans saw it as them preparing some material for the MCU once Evans, RDJ and maybe Hemsworth move on. And they were more or less right since post endgame Marvel is clearly taking some ques from that era. Sam is still Falcon but he has the shield, hell, there are Iron Heart rumors, Hemsworth is thankfully still on board but they are doing the Jane thing. I wouldn't be surpised if they get a Artemis Cho as Hulk eventually. But on the other hand as Frontier pointed out, Dc is a different animal in that regards. They're probably never going to get to that point since their shared universe was a nonstarter. When Gadot and Momoa are done, they probably won't pass the torch to replacement characters, more likely just wait a good long while and reboot with a new actor. So from a synergy perspective, they have much less reason to do this than marvel did. It is however easy to see how a black Batman could generate valuable buzz/publicity. Aged up Jon as Superman and the second most popular Captain Boomerang as Flash though? Where's the hook in those?

Because they still lack the ability to reach the diverse market that Marvel is currently doing. I only need to reference Black Panther to indicate how behind DC is regarding reaching these areas that are currently thirsting for proper representation. So it's less of a synergy and more of wanting to expand past what they can currently offer. In regards to Aged up Jon and Captain Boomerang as Flash, that's why I'm a bit reserve as to who the characters are meant to be or who will be the major roles, and here's why.


People forgot, but a few years ago, Bendis specifically stated that he had major plans for Val Zod, but could not go into detail as to what those plans were. This year, I personally got to ask Dan Didio about Val Zod during the DC panel at Comic Con, and he specifically stated he's coming in a major way in 2020 (something many news articles failed to report, because it dealt with a character they were uninterested in.) Now we have 5g coming in 2020. This clearly indicates to me that Val Zod is being used in some major way for 5g replacements. Now that doesn't mean he's going to be the official superman, but it could be possible that they're sharing the mantle. Perhaps Jon will run the Superman line, while Val Zod will run the Action Comics Line. Who knows.

So long story short, my recommendation is to wait and see on who the actual characters are going to be for 5g. Because news sites is only going to report things they're interested in, while equally as important areas can fall through the waist crack, as I noticed specifically no news site reported Dan Didio stating he has major plans for Val Zod in 2020.

[Frontier]

My point wasn't that the Big 7 needs to be replaced or done away with, my point was that DC doesn't have anywhere near the breath of content necessary to reach out to necessary audiences. Yes, Superman is coming out a new tv show. Yes, there's a new batman show. What does that do? Focus on the same demographics that they reached out to before. Just look at the flash TV show, when you pointed out as being a success. Clearly a much more diverse product then even it's comic book counterpart, to the point to where we now have Wallace in the new52. Outside of the Big 7, which is already running it course and arguably doesn't have much more legs to stand on, DC doesn't have anywhere the depth of characters needed to reach out to the diverse demographics.
That is what 5g is allowing for DC, just like ANAD allowed for Marvel.

Don't you mean Batwoman? Which does target a different demographic.

I would say Flash is as diverse as the comic when you look at the vast history of the title.

Considering all the characters they've been able to spin into DC Zoom/Ink, animated properties, and such...I think DC has plenty of characters in their backlog that can reach different audiences.

Again, that wasn't my point. My point wasn't about the successful sales of the series but the cancelation preventing longevity of the comics to tell long, epic, overarching storylines. Carol's series has cancelled numerous times yes, but they've regularly been long running series that allows major storylines to be concluded. These storylines can then be inserted into video games, cartoons, movies and more. What's the longest running series blue beetle have? 20 issues? That's probably 2-3 arcs maximum. Essentially, Blue Beetle needs a long lasting series so he can have multiple arcs under his belt. Because right now, he arguably only has one major area, and that's the Reach.

Even a lack of source material isn't necessarily an issue..I mean, again, Ant-Man? They're doing a movie on The Eternals?

Heck, DC based their Shazam movie off one single story arc and that seemed to work out fine.

Speaking of Carol's series I don't think any of them have run long enough to do enough major storylines. Maybe 2-3, like Blue Beetle, at best. The movie ended up really doing it's own thing with her anyways.

[leo619]

Don't you mean Batwoman? Which does target a different demographic.

I would say Flash is as diverse as the comic when you look at the vast history of the title.

Considering all the characters they've been able to spin into DC Zoom/Ink, animated properties, and such...I think DC has plenty of characters in their backlog that can reach different audiences.

I was referring to the batman movie, not batwoman show. The batwoman show is definitely a step in the right direction, but it's that depth their looking for, especially to add to their DC streaming service.

As for Flash Comic being as diverse as the show? Definitely not, it took Flash decades for us to get characters like XS, or Wally's kids. The Flash started off out of the gate with POC's in major roles, that transitioned to one of the biggest characters from Flash's history be a POC (Wally.) It's night/day difference, and that's why DC is trying to play catch up to match the demand of the general audience.

Oh DC definitely has characters that can reach different audiences, but that's essentially what 5g is for. Is to take these characters that has the potential, and give them the best chance for long lasting series where they are the star of epic events and huge crisis's in the DC universe, something that can't happen with the Big 7 currently running things. If You noticed, many of the rumored characters aren't brand new characters, but existing characters that they wish to present to the forefront.

Even a lack of source material isn't necessarily an issue..I mean, again, Ant-Man? They're doing a movie on The Eternals?

Heck, DC based their Shazam movie off one single story arc and that seemed to work out fine.

Speaking of Carol's series I don't think any of them have run long enough to do enough major storylines. Maybe 2-3, like Blue Beetle, at best. The movie ended up really doing it's own thing with her anyways.

Wait what? LOL, Antman has literally decades of content to work with. The same with Eternals. Blue Beetle came out in what, late 2000's? That's the advantage classic characters have that newer characters do not possess. There's so much in the well to work with they can pull and discard whatever they wishes.
The movies aren't pulling 3 story arcs into one movie, but they want enough content from story arcs from comics to where at least a trilogy can be possible, and much more so if they place it towards a television show.

As for Carol's movie, it's essentially a twisted version of her origin, but there is some similarities from her source. With that said, if I recall, she had a 50 issue running series at one time, that's definitely enough for a few major arcs for sure. But she has many solo ongoing series, ranging from 15-30 issues depending upon the era. She has a lot of content under her belt.

[Frontier]

I was referring to the batman movie, not batwoman show. The batwoman show is definitely a step in the right direction, but it's that depth their looking for, especially to add to their DC streaming service.

They've got multiple properties for multiple areas already, not just DCU.

As for Flash Comic being as diverse as the show? Definitely not, it took Flash decades for us to get characters like XS, or Wally's kids. The Flash started off out of the gate with POC's in major roles, that transitioned to one of the biggest characters from Flash's history be a POC (Wally.) It's night/day difference, and that's why DC is trying to play catch up to match the demand of the general audience.

Eh...Wally had a diverse supporting cast pretty early on. His main love interest was Asian, he had Chunk for a best pal, he learned Pied Piper was gay, etc.

I think that's about on par with the STAR labs crew.

Oh DC definitely has characters that can reach different audiences, but that's essentially what 5g is for. Is to take these characters that has the potential, and give them the best chance for long lasting series where they are the star of epic events and huge crisis's in the DC universe, something that can't happen with the Big 7 currently running things. If You noticed, many of the rumored characters aren't brand new characters, but existing characters that they wish to present to the forefront.

Some of them are already at the forefront though, but others just seem plain random.

Wait what? LOL, Antman has literally decades of content to work with. The same with Eternals. Blue Beetle came out in what, late 2000's? That's the advantage classic characters have that newer characters do not possess. There's so much in the well to work with they can pull and discard whatever they wishes.
The movies aren't pulling 3 story arcs into one movie, but they want enough content from story arcs from comics to where at least a trilogy can be possible, and much more so if they place it towards a television show.

As for Carol's movie, it's essentially a twisted version of her origin, but there is some similarities from her source. With that said, if I recall, she had a 50 issue running series at one time, that's definitely enough for a few major arcs for sure. But she has many solo ongoing series, ranging from 15-30 issues depending upon the era. She has a lot of content under her belt.

I think you are vastly overestimating the amount of content for Ant-Man (specifically Scott Lang) and Carol, at least as far as what Marvel Studios draws from, and they are the kind of movies that would pull from 3 different arcs instead of just movies based on one single, memorable, arc.

Carol's longest run is as Ms. Marvel instead of Captain Marvel if you're talking about a 50+ run.

I wouldn't say either Ant-Man or The Eternals have enough content to suffice a movie trilogy but that didn't stop them from getting movies, or Ant-Man from getting his own trilogy.

[leo619]

Eh...Wally had a diverse supporting cast pretty early on. His main love interest was Asian, he had Chunk for a best pal, he learned Pied Piper was gay, etc.


I think that's about on par with the STAR labs crew.

Alright now you're just trying to debate. I specifically reference the following statement

As for Flash Comic being as diverse as the show? Definitely not, it took Flash decades for us to get characters like XS, or Wally's kids.

This was specifically referencing to Wally and forward. Did all of those things happen to Wally? Yes. Does that change the fact that it took them decades to reach the diversity that the Flash "initially" had in the show. No. It's fine to disagree with something, but to debate just to debate is unnecessary.

Some of them are already at the forefront though, but others just seem plain random.

We already know you and I have different level of standards when it comes to diversity so I'll just agree to disagree.

I think you are vastly overestimating the amount of content for Ant-Man (specifically Scott Lang) and Carol, at least as far as what Marvel Studios draws from, and they are the kind of movies that would pull from 3 different arcs instead of just movies based on one single, memorable, arc.

Carol's longest run is as Ms. Marvel instead of Captain Marvel if you're talking about a 50+ run.

I wouldn't say either Ant-Man or The Eternals have enough content to suffice a movie trilogy but that didn't stop them from getting movies, or Ant-Man from getting his own trilogy.

And I think you're once again trying to debate just to debate, but alas the majority of marvel movies focus primarily on one single arc. Now will there other elements of an arc sprinkled in to either lead to the story idea of a sequel or help fluff the main plot of that movie? In "some" movies yes, but the movie itself is still primarily about that one single arc, and the majority of marvel movies fit within that guideline.

And so what if Carol's longest run is 50+ as Ms.Marvel. Hell, the latest spider man borrows from Miles Morales storyline, that doesn't change the fact that they still primarily use content from his own comics. So if Marvel is willing to take from an entirely different character, I'm pretty positive they're willing to take arcs from the same character under a different mantle if they felt the arcs was good enough to be transitioned into the big screen.

[Frontier]

Alright now you're just trying to debate. I specifically reference the following statement

I thought we were just debating .

This was specifically referencing to Wally and forward. Did all of those things happen to Wally? Yes. Does that change the fact that it took them decades to reach the diversity that the Flash "initially" had in the show. No. It's fine to disagree with something, but to debate just to debate is unnecessary.

I don't think I'm debating just to debate, but to each their own. My point was that the diversity in the TV show was not unheard of in the actual comics.

And I think you're once again trying to debate just to debate, but alas the majority of marvel movies focus primarily on one single arc. Now will there other elements of an arc sprinkled in to either lead to the story idea of a sequel or help fluff the main plot of that movie? In "some" movies yes, but the movie itself is still primarily about that one single arc, and the majority of marvel movies fit within that guideline.

Or just wholesale do something original with some sprinkling of source material.

And so what if Carol's longest run is 50+ as Ms.Marvel. Hell, the latest spider man borrows from Miles Morales storyline, that doesn't change the fact that they still primarily use content from his own comics. So if Marvel is willing to take from an entirely different character, I'm pretty positive they're willing to take arcs from the same character under a different mantle if they felt the arcs was good enough to be transitioned into the big screen.

Are we talking Far From Home or Into the Spider-Verse?

I think Marvel will draw from what the characters they want to use, whether they have tons of source material or not, but will also spin the source material into new stories.

[leo619]

I thought we were just debating .

No, I'm merely talking about topics. I don't debate unless there's a reason for me to debate, especially in regards to topics like this where the lines are often drawn between classic fans and new fans or classic fans and fans that heavily advocate towards diversity.

I don't think I'm debating just to debate, but to each their own. My point was that the diversity in the TV show was not unheard of in the actual comics.

Yes you are. So to clarify, to debate just to debate means you're coming up with counter arguments for points I wasn't making. Which means you aren't trying to grasp what I'm saying, you're just trying to argue. This would be the fourth time in our discussion that this situation has happened. In this situation, I never stated the diversity in the tv show is unheard of in the comic, I specifically stated this.

Clearly a much more diverse product then even it's comic book counterpart,

This is due to the fact that the product right out of the gate was much more diverse than the comic book counterpart, and it took the flash decades to see diversity that comes close to mirroring what we're seeing on the television show.

Are we talking Far From Home or Into the Spider-Verse?

I think Marvel will draw from what the characters they want to use, whether they have tons of source material or not, but will also spin the source material into new stories.

I'm talking Far From Home. To revert back to the original topic, hopefully, we will see a blue beetle reemergence with 5g, that may help give him the proper propellant needed to reach the next stage. Both him and firestorm are arguably the closest they have and 5g can be use to take them to the next level.

[skyvolt2000]

Because they still lack the ability to reach the diverse market that Marvel is currently doing. I only need to reference Black Panther to indicate how behind DC is regarding reaching these areas that are currently thirsting for proper representation. So it's less of a synergy and more of wanting to expand past what they can currently offer. In regards to Aged up Jon and Captain Boomerang as Flash, that's why I'm a bit reserve as to who the characters are meant to be or who will be the major roles, and here's why.

DC was never in the boat that Marvel was at one point.

DC never sold movie rights to other companies to stay open. It's hard to make a case for guys like Black Lightning or Vixen when you have no restrictions with Superman or Batman or their gang.

Marvel was forced to try other folks. So a Black Panther gets a shot and a "big" name on his book (despite how BADLY he has turned Wakanda into Hotel Wakanda). That doesn't happen here-if you have already made up your mind to not even attempt to try. Same with Squirrel Girl & Moon Girl.

[kingaliencracker]

DC was never in the boat that Marvel was at one point.

DC never sold movie rights to other companies to stay open. It's hard to make a case for guys like Black Lightning or Vixen when you have no restrictions with Superman or Batman or their gang.

Marvel was forced to try other folks. So a Black Panther gets a shot and a "big" name on his book (despite how BADLY he has turned Wakanda into Hotel Wakanda). That doesn't happen here-if you have already made up your mind to not even attempt to try. Same with Squirrel Girl & Moon Girl.

To be fair, Black Panther came out 10 years after Marvel Stuidos was already well established as a powerhouse. MS initially started with Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, and Captain America - not exactly unknowns. Had they started with Ant-Man, Black Panther, or Captain Marvel, they may not have had the same success.

[Vordan]

To be fair, Black Panther came out 10 years after Marvel Stuidos was already well established as a powerhouse. MS initially started with Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, and Captain America - not exactly unknowns. Had they started with Ant-Man, Black Panther, or Captain Marvel, they may not have had the same success.

Eh Hulk was A-List, and I’d put Cap at B-List but Iron Man and Thor? No one cared about those dudes at all, ESPECIALLY not Iron Man. It’s a credit to the success of the MCU that Tony Stark is now as much a household name as Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent.

[Frontier]

Eh Hulk was A-List, and I’d put Cap at B-List but Iron Man and Thor? No one cared about those dudes at all, ESPECIALLY not Iron Man. It’s a credit to the success of the MCU that Tony Stark is now as much a household name as Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent.

Although ironically he's not as much of a sales pillar as Harley Quinn...

[shadow6743]

Although ironically he's not as much of a sales pillar as Harley Quinn...

Can we finally have people admit that Harley Quinn is the 4th pillar of DC Comics I mean Joker and Harley Criminal Sanity sold 81,515 and Harleen #2 sold 65,720. Hulk, Cap, and Iron Man, and Thor at least been in Marvel movies for years. Harley just got in live-action and appearances in animated shows throughout the years. Like people talk about Harley being pushed as the Hot Topic hero but, no one forced 65,000 people to go out and buy a book about her. Maybe fans just like Harley Quinn.