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  1. #106
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    DC also killed all the hype for Legion and JSA...
    Their re-appearence now feel rushed, and uninspiring.
    And I am sure Legion would fall below 40k during its first trade story period, within few issues.

  2. #107
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think not tieing the return to the JSA and Legion with Doomsday Clock anymore was a bad marketing move, irregardless of my feelings that their re-implementation has not been handled as best it could have been.

    I mean, it doesn't even seem like their appearance in Snyder's run has helped JL's sales.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah DC makes continuity clean ups into big ass events. Marvel just handwaves it. Marvelís way is honestly better I feel since DCís big stories are wasted trying to make sense of their rebooting, which is why the most popular events donít really focus on continuity crap.
    Both come with their own problems in practice.

  3. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Both come with their own problems in practice.
    I don't think there's any way to continue decades of continuity without errors along the way, regardless of what path is taken (reboot or continuation).

    Having said that, there's something to be said about the ability for me to read Amazing Spider-Man (1st volume) #12 on Marvel Unlimited (as a totally random example) and know that it's still part of Spider-Man's history. And I definitely feel DC spends too much time explaining it's changed continuity versus just telling good stories, and the fact they put so much hyper focus on it causes fans to put hyper focus on it.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    ...I think bigger issue is not that DC reboots, but that they turn reboots into stories. If Marvel was like DC then Gwen Stacy would be alive, but 6 months later we'd get story about how some people remember that this is wrong and she is supposed to be dead, then we'd discover some villain who has altered the universe for some reasons. All this would lead to another reboot that would probably make her dead and alive at the same time till eventually they are merged and its back to how it was, but not really. At some point she'd probably become black as well and would later become not-Gwen, but actually a cousin of Gwen who is still white.
    LMAO a perfect summation of DC's frequent nonsensical reboots. Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  5. #110
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    The only time I think DC Comics needed a reboot was Crisis On Infinite Earths. All the storylines from the 1940s ended and modern history for characters was established. Since then, there has been events to fix continuity like Zero hour and Infinite Crisis. I don't mind these events because DC established this expectation of an event explaining changes that occur with characters. I wonder if they didn't do a Crisis or some sort of event to fix things and just did them how many fans would accept that? They established a connection between events and fixing continuity in 1985 have been doing it that way since so now it's an expectation. So, now if they want to change that they need to change readers expectations.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    LMAO a perfect summation of DC's frequent nonsensical reboots. Thanks, I needed a good laugh.
    Heh, yeah, I recognise those references. Villain altered the universe - Doctor Manhattan. Another reboot - Rebirth. Merged - Superman Reborn. Become black - Wally West. Actually a cousin - Wallace West.

  7. #112
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I believe the trade part of the chart is related to the bookscan numbers. Years ago I added up the sales for the New 52 Nightwing Vol. 1 trades off the Comichron list for a year and it matched the trade sold in the bookscan numbers Hibbs posted in his yearly column. So I think they are very closely related. Though I am not completely sure on this. We won't have the bookscan numbers until next year though.
    Bookscan numbers are not what we are getting here. Bookscan comes from participating retailers and report on what actually sold at checkout. These numbers here are just what was ordered from Diamond by their accounts (i.e., comic shops) to be put on shelves (or meet preorders).
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah DC makes continuity clean ups into big ass events. Marvel just handwaves it. Marvelís way is honestly better I feel since DCís big stories are wasted trying to make sense of their rebooting, which is why the most popular events donít really focus on continuity crap.
    Marvel begins Secret Wars with everything being destroyed. They end it with a brand new universe being created that maybe mostly matches the previous one we knew as 616. No one bats and eye. DC does some 'filler event' for 2 months where some out of timeline battle occurs that ends with some Crisis being averted and everyone theorizes on every past continuity flooding into the current one. It is interesting to observe the differences.

    For what it is worth, I don't think these continuity changing events matter to 90% or so of the readers who are just going in looking for characters (or writers or artists) they recognize and hoping for something that interests them enough to come back next month. DC does not need to clean up any continuity for the sake of cleaning it up. They just need to carve out parts of the DC universe for their characters to have their own stories and make their own impact and from time to time show that things ripple across to other stories and then keep moving on. When they focus too much on the act of rebooting, even something like Rebirth, people form all these expectations and they let that happen. You are right, Marvel just says "here is this big thing happening, don't bother us with asking how it fits into that other big event or if anything is going to care about it after, just buy all the variants and the tie-ins that speculators are buzzing about, and hey guess what let me tell you about the next big event that is going to shake up everything!"

  8. #113
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    Constantly doing stories about fixing your own nightmare continuity, especially having your biggest stories revolve around that, is inherently toxic. Your biggest stories are about other stories which means people have to read outside material to actually get the story and why it matters. This is not going to grow your audience and fans don't love it, either. They need to clean everything up and move on, except they've never pulled off step 1 so they can never do step 2. If Marvel does an event about Iron Man snorting cocaine off a table, everyone gets the premise and the stakes. They can follow the story even without understanding some continuity sprinkles. A long history is supposed to be additive and add a healthy weight to proceedings, not drag your universe down to a messy floor.
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  9. #114
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    I think more people care about continuity than people here seem to think. It IS additive when writers actually take the time to learn about and include it in the story. A strong editorial staff is needed to ensure continuity is followed. It was done for decades so I’m not sure Heath it’s so difficult now. Marvel’s big reboot went mostly unnoticed because it’s the only time they’ve ever done it. DC seems to do it every couple of years now because they don’t take the time to follow continuity and then have to jump through their asses to reboot or realign things to try to make it make sense. If you want a connected universe and MANY do, then writers need to utilize existing continuity when forming their stories. Continuity isn’t the problem, poor writing is.

  10. #115
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    Bookscan numbers are not what we are getting here. Bookscan comes from participating retailers and report on what actually sold at checkout. These numbers here are just what was ordered from Diamond by their accounts (i.e., comic shops) to be put on shelves (or meet preorders).

    Marvel begins Secret Wars with everything being destroyed. They end it with a brand new universe being created that maybe mostly matches the previous one we knew as 616. No one bats and eye. DC does some 'filler event' for 2 months where some out of timeline battle occurs that ends with some Crisis being averted and everyone theorizes on every past continuity flooding into the current one. It is interesting to observe the differences.
    Thing is, ANAD Marvel only added a few things from the old Earth-1610. Miles Morales and his supporting cast, and villain The Maker (ex-Mr Fantastic). And the Triskelion building. All old stories still happened (even Miles Morales's - Miles believed himself to 616 native, as shown in an annual after Bendis stopped writing him and before his current series started, but that's obviously fake memories and he's now beginning to remember 1610 as a villain from there - Green Goblin - has come to 616 by interdimensional travel - 1610 having been revealed to be restored in Bendis's Spider-Men II). When DC reboots the universe, all old stories get binned, only to be brought back bit by bit (Teen Titans never fully rebooted after the Crisis, and Batman and Green Lantern didn't junk everything after Flashpoint, but those are exceptions).

  11. #116
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    I get that people may not like DC Comics doing events and stories to fix continuity but, am I the only one who remembers the DCU era? Remember how DC Comics just focused on telling stories and not telling fans when they took place? I remember fans not liking that at all. A lot of fans like continuity we may compliant about a Crisis or event happening at the moment but when DC Comics tried to move away from continuity fans were not happy. I mean what's the point of having serialized comics if past events are not going to matter? Also, I personality like Crisis and events because DC has so many characters that are not being used and a Crisis often means for some fans including myself that there is a possibility that a character you love is coming back.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadow6743 View Post
    I get that people may not like DC Comics doing events and stories to fix continuity but, am I the only one who remembers the DCU era? Remember how DC Comics just focused on telling stories and not telling fans when they took place? I remember fans not liking that at all. A lot of fans like continuity we may compliant about a Crisis or event happening at the moment but when DC Comics tried to move away from continuity fans were not happy. I mean what's the point of having serialized comics if past events are not going to matter? Also, I personality like Crisis and events because DC has so many characters that are not being used and a Crisis often means for some fans including myself that there is a possibility that a character you love is coming back.
    The problem is, it was based on N52 world which majority of fans hated. It also didn't help the matters that not even the writers knew what they were doing. I hate the obsession with continuity myself but it wouldn't hurt anyone if they just laid down a clear guideline to follow. If 5G is gonna accomplish this, then good for everyone if you ask me.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick Figure View Post
    Honestly the whole 5g thing really has me interested in what will happen next. I’ll probably pick up more DC titles than I ever have! I’m already buying Superman comics & the new Legion title because of Bendis. I never dreamed I’d d be interested in those books. I’m excited by what DC is doing.

    Pretty Much, I haven't been this excited since New 52, I'm just hoping for better execution this time around then last time. With that said, the sales of Rebirth is exactly how I stated, which is the idea that somehow classic characters would save DC is an entirely misguided premise. The issue has never been about the characters, it's been about classic fans steadily leaving comics and there's no new blood to replace them. They're reading manga, they're playing video games, they're on social media, hell, they're playing freaking dnd. The fact that DND is finding a resurgence when comics is failing tells you the issue lies in drawing in new audiences. The writing has been on the wall for a while now that older readers are either leaving or dying and there isn't anyone to pick up the slack. Classic fans themselves wished to keep comics the same just like how many older dnd players were upset from 4e to 5e, but it was those adjustments to 5e to help bring DnD to a new light.

    Will 5g save the day all by itself? Definitely not, but like Marvel's ANAD, it can be a key component in bringing in demographics the classic characters currently alienate. The fact that San Diego Comic Con had more people dressed up in Miles Morales costumes then essentially every single hero from DC tells you the potential that 5g can possibly bring.

  14. #119
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    It'll be interesting to see how 5G is handled from a cross-media standpoint given from the sounds of it WB is very involved.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It'll be interesting to see how 5G is handled from a cross-media standpoint given from the sounds of it WB is very involved.
    To be honest, that is what I'm entirely expected this 5g initiative to be about. I know classic fans hate to see the writing on the wall, but comics in it's current form is dying. It cannot sustain itself. And this is coming from someone who's essentially creating my own comic book company (though my method for delivering comics is going to be completely different from the standard big 2 method, that's a different story.) It has almost nothing to do with continuity, as solving that issue may provide a temporary bump just like reboots, but would do nothing to solve the lack of new readership. Marvel is doing constant reboots, variant covers, and more not to excel the market but just to sustain it. Without these methods, they would be in just as bad shape as DC is currently.

    IMO 5g is almost entirely about the cross-media marketplace, they know they cannot rely on just the big 7 any longer, especially with how bad the DCU ended up being. And while Sony is blowing up Miles Morales, and Disney+ is going with Ms.Marvel, She Hulk, and Moon Knight, DC is stuck since all of their eggs lie in their big 7 (primarily due to the chokehold these characters have on the DC universe, but that's a different story.) 5g is going to break those shackles to allow DC to tell different stories that they couldn't tell previously before. Especially in capturing diverse markets in the general audience that is almost impossible with their current offerings. One of DC's biggest success was wonder woman, while marvel released captain marvel. But DC then looks at the success at black panther, looks at their own properties and realize there is nothing they have in their stable that can hold up to that.

    Or Miles Morales. Even before into the spiderverse, folks have been regularly asking the MCU when can we expect to see Miles Morales in Spider Man. Then Sony's Into The Spider Verse comes out and makes him the most popular new character to come out within the last decade. What does DC have for this? There best option may be blue beetle, but he hasn't had a stable series long enough to keep telling stories. He's gone through what, 3 series cancelations?

    This is what's 5g is about, IMO. DC, (and Marvel) knows comics are on life support due to the constraints of the comic book market, and will mostly be used as spring boards to be able to tell stories in other media properties in the future. So 5g is allowing them the best opportunity to reach the general audience. At the same time, it's going to give new stories that makes people like me excited. So while I'm all aboard the 5g initiative, I pretty sure I know what the reason is for this method, and it's not for comics.
    Last edited by leo619; 11-13-2019 at 01:39 PM.

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