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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Don't get me wrong I'm not dogpiling on Bendis. I feel his meteoric rise is merely a symptom of deep problems at DC Comics (many of which others, including yourself, have already pointed out). I think (from what I've heard) the situation is far direr than many people assume.
    Oh I think the situation is very direr. You don't proceed with a plan to try and permanently replace Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and your other big-named characters if things are going hunky-dory. As I said, I've been a DC fan for a very, very long time and I can honestly say this is easily the worst 10 years of comics I've seen them produce, and I was around for Electric Superman.

    As far as Bendis, I think DC clearly sees him as a major coup and a progressive, forward-thinking mind who can somehow save the brand. And again, he may very well be that guy but thus far his stories and sales since jumping to DC certainly don't warrant the amount of faith DC has shown in him. His Action run isn't bad, but everything else is average to mediocre, and none of it is selling well.

  2. #92
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Well, and you'll get the argument "story trumps continuity", and I more or less agree with that to a degree.

    But there's something to be said that, as an example, Gwen's death still counts as originally written and depicted nearly FIFTY years ago in Spider-Man's universe. That's why Marvel has more good will with its fan base than DC has.
    Yeah, and if Marvel ever reboots, The Night Gwen Stacy Died would be the first story to be forever wiped away - they'd have her survive and become Ghost Spider instead (rather than the superhero version of her coming from an alternate universe).

    Hopefully this new timeline stuff DC revealed recently will result in Donna Troy's backstory getting simplified - right now it's a total mess because New 52 Wonder Woman was declared to be fake memories and at least some of the old Titans continuity has been restored. No reason not to just use her pre-Crisis one, if Wonder Woman's golden and silver age continuity is to be brought back (the timeline says Diana was around in the war, went home when the atomic bombs dropped, and came back after Superman and Batman debuted in the 50s - their continuities are only back from the silver age onwards, which was the post-Crisis pre-Flashpoint status quo for those two anyway - and that means Diana was now around to rescue toddler Donna from the fire, as was said in her original origin story). Donna's the poster girl for the negativity of reboots.

  3. #93
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    No reason not to just use her pre-Crisis one, if Wonder Woman's golden and silver age continuity is to be brought back (the timeline says Diana was around in the war, went home when the atomic bombs dropped, and came back after Superman and Batman debuted in the 50s - their continuities are only back from the silver age onwards, which was the post-Crisis pre-Flashpoint status quo for those two anyway - and that means Diana was now around to rescue toddler Donna from the fire, as was said in her original origin story). Donna's the poster girl for the negativity of reboots.
    I'm just not willing to have Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman active for 7-10 years before Robin. I like Donna very much, but her being rescued by WW means little to me (she's a Titans, not WW character to me) and it screws up the timeline a lot by adding a big gap after trinity debut and before Dick's (and, of course, accordingly ages all of them). I'm actually very fond Dick coming when Batman has only been around a year and technically having seniority over so many other (already adult) heroes and being nearly as experienced as Bruce and Clark (who I prefer with his original non-Superboyness). But I accept him moving down a few years so Cissie King-Jones can exist. But not 10 years later - just doesn't work for me at all.

    I'm not willing to sacrifice Dick's place as one the first for the sake of Diana rescuing Donna. Yeah, early '80s and second-half-of-90s Dick is my absolute favorite character, so I admit I'm going to prioritize him. I think he's been much diminished in stature since 2001 and this would only make it more so. And, to me, it doesn't do much for Donna's character.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 11-11-2019 at 07:08 PM.

  4. #94
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    I mean think it makes more sense for Bruce to be active for at least 2 or 3 years before he gets Dick as his Robin. Because during that period I think it around the time where Batman is no longer an urban legend in Gotham. So, it makes sense for him to now have this colorful boy sidekick next to him. I feel like 7 to 10 years before Robin makes Bruce to old especially if he still becomes batman at 25. If he is nearly 35 when he gets Dick then how old his he now with Damian? Does that mean him and Superman are pushing 50?

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Doomsday Clock Part 1 only moving 6K in trades is surprising. That feels very low for such a highly promoted book connected to DC's bet selling trade (Watchmen) of all time. Plus you figured that many might have been trade waiting the series because of how slow the single issue releases have been. Like I thought it would at least get over 10K.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Doomsday Clock Part 1 only moving 6K in trades is surprising. That feels very low for such a highly promoted book connected to DC's bet selling trade (Watchmen) of all time. Plus you figured that many might have been trade waiting the series because of how slow the single issue releases have been. Like I thought it would at least get over 10K.
    That's one of those books I expect does gangbusters at Amazon, BN, etc. I'd someone knows how to pull the bookscan(?) numbers on it, I'd be interested.
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  7. #97
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    I imagine the reason the Doomsday Clock trade did not do so great is because most people are waiting for part 2 of the series to come out in trade. I mean the whole point of trade waiting is to get a full story arc without waiting each month for the next issue. I think I will hold judgment on Doomsday Clock's trade sales until part 2 is released.

  8. #98
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Doomsday Clock Part 1 only moving 6K in trades is surprising. That feels very low for such a highly promoted book connected to DC's bet selling trade (Watchmen) of all time. Plus you figured that many might have been trade waiting the series because of how slow the single issue releases have been. Like I thought it would at least get over 10K.
    I'll be honest, I'm waiting for a big hardcover that has the entire narrative in it. I know it'll be a thing, and quite frankly the ending may completely sour the book because there's a lot to be resolved in just one issue. It's been such a torturous string of delays and clear changes that I can no longer trust I'll want to own a collected edition. I imagine I'm not alone in this respect. The Legion reveal in issue 11 really disappointed me because it just felt like editorial took the Legion from Johns, so Saturn Girl dissolves just as his plans for the Legion did. If something similar happens to the JSA you will be hard-pressed to find a trade or hardcover of Doomsday Clock on my shelf.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterfall View Post
    Flash Forward sells on par, heck even better than the main Flash book, the one that sold above was a conclusion to arc, tie-in to an event and included an important retcon regarding Hunter. Even that made only 4k difference between the books. I don't know how this makes the series a failure honestly.
    The Flash books have been pretty flat for quite a long time now. Low to mid 30K per issue seems to the ceiling.
    Nice to see Flash Forward selling near the same as the Flash monthly numbers. The book has been pretty good so far, so hopefully more Wally fans decide to give it a shot.
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
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  10. #100
    Ultimate Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I'm just not willing to have Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman active for 7-10 years before Robin. I like Donna very much, but her being rescued by WW means little to me (she's a Titans, not WW character to me) and it screws up the timeline a lot by adding a big gap after trinity debut and before Dick's (and, of course, accordingly ages all of them). I'm actually very fond Dick coming when Batman has only been around a year and technically having seniority over so many other (already adult) heroes and being nearly as experienced as Bruce and Clark (who I prefer with his original non-Superboyness). But I accept him moving down a few years so Cissie King-Jones can exist. But not 10 years later - just doesn't work for me at all.

    I'm not willing to sacrifice Dick's place as one the first for the sake of Diana rescuing Donna. Yeah, early '80s and second-half-of-90s Dick is my absolute favorite character, so I admit I'm going to prioritize him. I think he's been much diminished in stature since 2001 and this would only make it more so. And, to me, it doesn't do much for Donna's character.
    You misread what I said. Only Wonder Woman is active for that extra decade. Batman and Superman start in the silver age, and therefore so does Robin. Remember also that the Crisis and Flashpoint both result in character de-aging, which explains the Titans remaining young and both the Society and the League not aging to the point of uselessness. The timeline also only covers 60 years, not 80, which is presumably where 5G comes in.

    Funny thing about Arrowette. Originally she took part in the 2000 Olympics, but in the new timeline it would need to be earlier - say, 1992?

  11. #101
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    You misread what I said. Only Wonder Woman is active for that extra decade. Batman and Superman start in the silver age, and therefore so does Robin. Remember also that the Crisis and Flashpoint both result in character de-aging, which explains the Titans remaining young and both the Society and the League not aging to the point of uselessness. The timeline also only covers 60 years, not 80, which is presumably where 5G comes in.
    I'm aware of the new timeline, but was speaking only in hypothetical - sorry about that. I hate the new timeline so much - the 60 years is 80+ drives me crazy. Hoping for a reasonable explanation, because WWII 60 years ago is unworkable, to me. I think it's a continuity-killer that only means another reboot will be necessary soon. I don't like WW pre-dating the other two that much. I didn't like her a rookie when they were experienced heroes in post-COIE. I like them as peers with roughly the same about of experience. I will accept one or two long before another, but it's not what I'd prefer. The 60-80 years thing, though, I'm going to need a really good explanation for.

  12. #102
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob/.schoonover View Post
    That's one of those books I expect does gangbusters at Amazon, BN, etc. I'd someone knows how to pull the bookscan(?) numbers on it, I'd be interested.
    I believe the trade part of the chart is related to the bookscan numbers. Years ago I added up the sales for the New 52 Nightwing Vol. 1 trades off the Comichron list for a year and it matched the trade sold in the bookscan numbers Hibbs posted in his yearly column. So I think they are very closely related. Though I am not completely sure on this. We won't have the bookscan numbers until next year though.

  13. #103
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    If it was doing amazing numbers on Amazon or somewhere else then DC probably would have mentioned it somewhere since they do need some good news in the public space.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Yeah, and if Marvel ever reboots, The Night Gwen Stacy Died would be the first story to be forever wiped away - they'd have her survive and become Ghost Spider instead (rather than the superhero version of her coming from an alternate universe).
    I think bigger issue is not that DC reboots, but that they turn reboots into stories. If Marvel was like DC then Gwen Stacy would be alive, but 6 months later we'd get story about how some people remember that this is wrong and she is supposed to be dead, then we'd discover some villain who has altered the universe for some reasons. All this would lead to another reboot that would probably make her dead and alive at the same time till eventually they are merged and its back to how it was, but not really. At some point she'd probably become black as well and would later become not-Gwen, but actually a cousin of Gwen who is still white.

  14. #104
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Yeah DC makes continuity clean ups into big ass events. Marvel just handwaves it. Marvel’s way is honestly better I feel since DC’s big stories are wasted trying to make sense of their rebooting, which is why the most popular events don’t really focus on continuity crap.

  15. #105
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    Another unfortunate thing about Snyderís Justice League not doing so great is that the triumphant return of the JSA landed with a whimper. I think a lot of that can be blamed on Doomsday Clock. Part of the appeal of that book was the return of the Legion and JSA. With all the delays DC had to go ahead and bring them back in far less dramatic fashion.

    A year ago if someone told me that DC would be producing a Justice League book written by Snyder featuring a Crisis level event that effects the entire DCU and the story also has the return of the Justice Society, I would definitely expect it to be at least in the top 10.
    Or maybe not many care about JSA and perhaps DC should have waited for doomsday clock who could have made their return a bigger deal and actually matter.

    I already said before that DC rushing to get JSA back instead of waiting for doomsday clock was stupid and probably what delayed it further due to the rewrite.

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