Is Jean Grey Really Ororo's Best Friend?

[butterflykyss]

Perhaps, but if Jean is really a racist, then I guess that also means she loves Mastermind, wants to join the hellfire club, and wants to walk around in underwear. If that's not the case for the others, why is the racism aspect the only truth?

are you talking about Emma or Jean? I'm confused now.

[Havok83]

So Im pretty sure I asked u in the past couple of days if you'd read DPS recently but now I gotta be more specific: dis u read the Dark Phoenix Saga and interpret that Jean was mind-controlled, not influenced and perverted but actually mind-controlled to the point her thoughts were not hers and she was essentially a puppet with no agency whatsoever for a good chunk of the story? Because theres missing the point of a story and then theres that.

Up until she turned into Dark Phoenix and was free of Mastermind's hold, yeah she didnt have complete agency. And that wasnt a good chunk of the story, but rather like 2 issues. She legit thought she was living in the 1700s and Mastermind was her great love bc thats what he wanted her to believe.



Cyclops explained what was happening. Jean did become the HFC puppet and this illusion was the ruse that Mastermind used to control her. He was in over his head though as she eventually broke free of it but it left her messed up in other ways


She flipped out when she realized that he tried to enslave her. He took away her agency and manipulated her thoughts and perception

[TheDeadSpace]

are you talking about Emma or Jean? I'm confused now.

I mentioned Jean in the post. I'm interested in an honest response to Jean's/Phoneix's overall behavior. It's either an all or nothing situation for me. Either everything she did as Black Queen was her, or nothing.

[tuck frump]

Perhaps, but if Jean is really a racist, then I guess that also means she loves Mastermind, wants to join the hellfire club, and wants to walk around in underwear. If that's not the case for the others, why is the racism aspect the only truth?

The entire Phoenix saga was about her embracing her nasty side, specifically when it comes to sex. Theres a panel in the scene where she and Scott are meeting Dazzler for the first time, shes thinking to herself how she can read the (sexual) thoughts of everyone around her and how she finds it both disgusting and fascinating. Mastermind exploited that (she wouldnt date regular Mastermind but she was into Jason Wyngarde, not because she was coerced into it but because he made himself look like what she would desire) and in the same way the 1700s setting was presented to her as a way to tempt her but none of the choices she made during that time were imposed on her. At least thats how it always read to me, but this is a good point to argue about, certainly better then "do we all hate Jean Grey and conspire to make her look bad y/n?"

[franckd]

Exactly. This only makes Jean flawed which in turn makes her interesting. But people only want their fave to be uwu cinnamon rolls too precious for this world not realizing this is holding the characters back creatively.

As I said a few times in other topics, I don't mind if my fav is not perfect, if she doesn't shine or is not the spotlight. But I need my fav to be in character. In a greater story, than counting her panel time or power points. I loved Morrison's run, because she wasn't perfect. She had a temper, could be abusive, as much as she could be full of compassion... But she wasn't the main star of the book. All the X-Men were. Hank, Emma, Scott, Logan...

[JB]

Up until she turned into Dark Phoenix and was free of Mastermind's hold, yeah she didnt have complete agency. And that wasnt a good chunk of the story, but rather like 2 issues. She legit thought she was living in the 1700s and Mastermind was her great love bc thats what he wanted her to believe.



Cyclops explained what was happening. Jean did become the HFC puppet and this illusion was the ruse that Mastermind used to control her. He was in over his head though as she eventually broke free of it but it left her messed up in other ways

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. What a story.

[Strong Girl Daken]

Exactly. This only makes Jean flawed which in turn makes her interesting. But people only want their fave to be uwu cinnamon rolls too precious for this world not realizing this is holding the characters back creatively.

Sure, so lets make threads about Nightcrawler, Rogue, and Gambit being repeating offenders for unwanted sexual contact.
Threads about how Emma blew up blimps of innocent people and was predatory toward teenage Cyclops and is now running the 21st century East Indian Trading Company. She also tried to steal Storm's body before Jordan Peele was even born lol.
Threads about Wolverine thinking Squirrel Girl is sexually attractive.
Threads about Beast fantasizing over Jean in her Marvel Girl outfit.
Threads about Iceman hating the diverse All-New All-Different team.
Threads about Dazzler existing as a white disco diva lol
Threads about Northstar being part of a terrorist cell.
etc

Every character has problematic elements in their publishing history since it's a book created in the 1960s and written by white guys since. It's very easy to weaponize that history if you dislike a specific character, and I just don't see the point.

[franckd]

Up until she turned into Dark Phoenix and was free of Mastermind's hold, yeah she didnt have complete agency. And that wasnt a good chunk of the story, but rather like 2 issues. She legit thought she was living in the 1700s and Mastermind was her great love bc thats what he wanted her to believe.



Cyclops explained what was happening. Jean did become the HFC puppet and this illusion was the ruse that Mastermind used to control her. He was in over his head though as she eventually broke free of it but it left her messed up in other ways


She flipped out when she realized that he tried to enslave her. He took away her agency and manipulated her thoughts and perception

Thank you for the scan. Yes, now I agree, she wasn't 100 % herself. Scott described the process, and himself thought she wouldn't hesitate to kill them. And Jean would rather die than killing her friends.

[Strong Girl Daken]

Storm is drawn with darker eyes and a wider nose when she's a slave compared to when she's a superhero. Did Jean draw the comics too?

[spirit2011]

Up until she turned into Dark Phoenix and was free of Mastermind's hold, yeah she didnt have complete agency. And that wasnt a good chunk of the story, but rather like 2 issues. She legit thought she was living in the 1700s and Mastermind was her great love bc thats what he wanted her to believe.



Cyclops explained what was happening. Jean did become the HFC puppet and this illusion was the ruse that Mastermind used to control her. He was in over his head though as she eventually broke free of it but it left her messed up in other ways


She flipped out when she realized that he tried to enslave her. He took away her agency and manipulated her thoughts and perception

Really hard to say where it was Jean fantasy or Mastermind. He was manipulating every perception she had

[tuck frump]

Sure, so lets make threads about Nightcrawler, Rogue, and Gambit being repeating offenders for unwanted sexual contact.
Threads about how Emma blew up blimps of innocent people and was predatory toward teenage Cyclops and is now running the 21st century East Indian Trading Company. She also tried to steal Storm's body before Jordan Peele was even born lol.
Threads about Wolverine thinking Squirrel Girl is sexually attractive.
Threads about Beast fantasizing over Jean in her Marvel Girl outfit.
Threads about Iceman hating the diverse All-New All-Different team.
Threads about Dazzler existing as a white disco diva lol
Threads about Northstar being part of a terrorist cell.
etc

Every character has problematic elements in their publishing history since it's a book created in the 1960s and written by white guys since. It's very easy to weaponize that history if you dislike a specific character, and I just don't see the point.

Its only the 12th day of the month we'll get to them soon enough.

[JB]

Really hard to say where it was Jean fantasy or Mastermind. He was manipulating every perception she had

I wonder if they're going to resurrect him. Drama!

[franckd]

I wonder if they're going to resurrect him. Drama!

You read my mind. I was asking to myself the same thing.

[spirit2011]

I wonder if they're going to resurrect him. Drama!

Well I think this would be in bad taste and tactiless.

[tuck frump]

He made his peace with Jean before dying. Not much drama to be had there but Id like to see Jean clash with the Mastermind sisters.