Is Jean Grey Really Ororo's Best Friend?

[butterflykyss]

Jean viewing Ororo as a houseslave in her fantasy is very much a racial issue and the fact it was published in 1980 doesnt diminish that fact in any way.

agreed 100%.

[tuck frump]

agreed 100%.

The Frenzy thing happened less then 20 years ago and is extremely messed up, not even Xavier has ever remote controlled another human being and forced them to put their lives at risk in a battle for him but Jean gets a pass. Fandom loves continuity and following the same character for 50 years until the character does something nasty then its oops lets forget this ever happened.

[spirit2011]

Jean viewing Ororo as a houseslave in her fantasy is very much a racial issue and the fact it was published in 1980 doesnt diminish that fact in any way.

It wasn't even her own fantasy.

[Havok83]

The Frenzy thing happened less then 20 years ago and is extremely messed up, not even Xavier has ever remote controlled another human being and forced them to put their lives at risk in a battle for him but Jean gets a pass. Fandom loves continuity and following the same character for 50 years until the character does something nasty then its oops lets forget this ever happened.

it shows that she's flawed and not this perfect being that her haters seem to occasionally come at her for

[MechaJeanix]

it shows that she's flawed and not this perfect being that her haters seem to occasionally come at her for

Right? The Jean Grey character gets hate for being little miss perfect or goody two shoes but as soon as she does anything questionable peoples heads explode. Can’t win. What Jean did to Frenzy was bad, and again the writer should have been more careful. The tone deaf white male writers are certainly a big part of the problem.

Though I admit I like it when telepaths use their abilities in questionable ways. It makes them more interesting.

[CoCoBandz]

Right? The Jean Grey character gets hate for being little miss perfect or goody two shoes but as soon as she does anything questionable peoples heads explode. Can’t win. What Jean did to Frenzy was bad, and again the writer should have been more careful. The tone deaf white male writers are certainly a big part of the problem.

Though I admit I like it when telepaths use their abilities in questionable ways. It makes them more interesting.

They're the problem in it's totality if were being honest.

[franckd]

Jean viewing Ororo as a houseslave in her fantasy is very much a racial issue and the fact it was published in 1980 doesnt diminish that fact in any way.

Nope. It's all Mastermind. I had doubts, but he is the one projecting illusions in Jean's head. It wasn't Jean fantasy to be psychically rapped and to treat her friends and the man she loves like crap. It's mastermind fantasy of what Jean Grey should be. He's even projecting Ororo with a different face. He's projecting the clothes, the environment. Like he projected this very version of "lady Grey" in Mystique's head when Jean was dead. Oh, I know, some haters are able to say that it was Jean Grey who cut Mystique's throat in her "nightmare". Even if Jean was dead. I have seen some haters saying horrible things about Jean Grey, juste based on a nightmare Maddie had... Like it really happened. If it's not biased, I don't know what it is.

Ignore that all you want, that's fine. I'm too old and have too much experience to know that a hater can't have a change of heart.

I know too that I can't change some people's mind about their constant negativity against Hickman. And I know I can't change Jean's crushers mind either. They're obsessed about her... It's not in my field of competency, to help people getting rid of their obsessions.

[Handsome men don't lose fights]

You said it yourself, russian ambassador is a flatscan so she's irrelevant in the story and doesnt represent any real person or group that is relevant or inspire sympathy. Discarded.

Whaaaaaat about Sabertooth? Wooo, I think POTE might have caught you napping!

[Handsome men don't lose fights]

She could had stopped there, instead she went and use Ororo body for sex

That's rape, full stop.

[PsychoEFrost]

Just because it happened 30 years ago doesn't mean it is less bad.

What about Emma going for jail for sexual assault for lying to patient about the therapy? happy now?



Jean asks Ororo is she is having a seizure... I hope it stays this way, some crimes shouldn't be forgiven

Fine, we put Emma in jail for life for her crimes, and Jean to death for the murder of the D'Bari. Everyone wins.

[Daedra]

Fine, we put Emma in jail for life for her crimes, and Jean to death for the murder of the D'Bari. Everyone wins.

Jean already died but Emma can rot in jail as long as you want as far as I am concerned.

[mikelmcknight72]

The Frenzy thing happened less then 20 years ago and is extremely messed up, not even Xavier has ever remote controlled another human being and forced them to put their lives at risk in a battle for him but Jean gets a pass. Fandom loves continuity and following the same character for 50 years until the character does something nasty then its oops lets forget this ever happened.

What happened was that there were impending creative change behind the signs, as well as a big direction change for the franchise. Subsequent writers had stories they wanted to tell, and they concentrated on those. Fandom had more important stories to get worked up about than Eve of Destruction, and the big direction change for the franchise took up a lot of that. Unfortunately, the writing wasn't exactly Lobdell's finest.

As for fandom, most fans are reasonable to give a character a pass over a profoundly out of character plot element that was inconsistent with with the vast majority of characterization for that character, both before and after. Essentially, they treat it like the anomaly it is.

In story, I won't argue that Jean's mind control of Frenzy was wrong. The "ends justify the means" motivation is not one I think is ever acceptable in real life, although I certainly understand it. In this case, Jean was flat out desperate. Logan and Scott were behind enemy lines and needed backup, Charles was being held captive and in great danger, and Magneto was on a villainous bent. The best team she could come up with was two relatively experienced & powerful heroes (Dazzler & Northstar) and three unknown characters (Sunpyre, Omerta, & Wraith). She needed a super-strong tank character to round out the team, and she had no friendly mutants who were available to help. Due to bad writing, her choices for a tank mutant were Frenzy or nothing, and the lives of her Logan, Scott, and Charles were on the line. Let's not forget that there had been zero stories up to that point depicting even a small reason to have any sympathy for Frenzy. Her history was working for Apocalypse and being a part of a team that called themselves the Alliance of Evil. She'd been depicted as doing nothing but harm. It doesn't make it right, nor does it excuse it, but it certainly makes it understandable. There was certainly nothing depicted regarding this event to indicate that Jean had even a trace of racial motivation to it.

And once again, Jean did not have an "Ororo as her slave" fantasy. It was the Phoenix while being corrupted by a combination of the following: essentially a xerox of a human mind as its operating system, a cosmic power level with which not even an actual human mind could cope, and what was essentially brainwashing and mind rape with illusions projected into her mind directly by Mastermind with an assist from the White Queen. Before the end of that story, Phoenix had even threatened Jean's father. Taking into account that storyline and all of the subsequent stories and retcons that altered the view of the events, Phoenix was not Jean. So a heavily traumatized, delusional cosmic entity fell prey to brainwashing, mind rape, and possibly actual rape. All while using a mind framework that was incapable of coping with the power at its disposal. Plus, if there was time in between parts of the story, you know darned well that Mastermind would have taken advantage of the opportunity to physically violate what was essentially his Galatea. Jean Grey/Grey-Summers is not responsible for what the Phoenix did, and she hasn't been responsible for it since the Avengers & Fantastic Four issues that brought her back and put the retcon in place. The majority of stories make it clear.

In real life, it is widely and rightly considered to be flat-out wrong to blame and/or punish someone for something they did not do. Would you blame someone for the actions of an immediate family member, extended family member, friend, ancestors, or simply people with whom they have a common gender, skin color, or sexual orientation? I would hope not. Doing so is akin to punishing someone for a crime they did not commit. You don't have to like that person, but you should do so only for their own actions. The same is true for fictional characters. Dislike a character all you want, but have fair reasons. Do it for what the character's canon shows to be that character's fault.

[PsychoEFrost]

Jean already died but Emma can rot in jail as long as you want as far as I am concerned.

Emma has died at least twice, if death removes all crimes. So we're back to where we are now.

[Agent Z]

The Frenzy thing happened less then 20 years ago and is extremely messed up, not even Xavier has ever remote controlled another human being and forced them to put their lives at risk in a battle for him but Jean gets a pass. Fandom loves continuity and following the same character for 50 years until the character does something nasty then its oops lets forget this ever happened.

Honestly, this says more about Marvel's tonedeafness when it comes to race than the Jean Grey character.

[BroHomo]

After Jean got De-Phoenixed, outta the cocoon, revived, and after Storm got her powers back and was fixed so she was an adult again. After ALLLLL that.
Storm, Jean and maaaaybe a jar of Vasoline had a few words.
but when it was all said and done....
Jean would still get invited to the barbeque