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  1. #1
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    Default So where did the Rockwellian thing even come from?

    So for many years when I first began to learn more about Superman there has been one thing I've encountered time and time again which the more I learn seems more and more strange. This weird connection some see between Norman Rockwell who was an American Artist who often painted very serene and idyllic pictures of American life and Superman who at the smallest building block is about spending great energy to fight evil.

    Rockwell's general high point is considered to be around the 30's 40's which is right around the time Superman was coming in to be and what's going on in Rockwell's art and what's happening in the pages of Superman are showing two very different views of the world and American life. Rockwell is depicting a very rosy view of what America could be like and Superman is depicting the hard times and the problems that the little guy was suffering. They're frankly the polar opposites that modern comics try to make Batman and Superman, they have little in common imo besides presumed time setting.
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  2. #2
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Tomasi was influenced by some of moore's stories with clark.

  3. #3
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what you mean about the connection between Norman Rockwell and Superman. If it's about Rebirth, then it's a critique mainly expressed by users on this forum to criticise the idyllic, picturesque depiction of the Super Family dynamic by Tomasi and Gleason in their Rebirth run. It's something I don't agree with for the most part but for those who don't like their Rebirth run as much as other fans do, I understand they feel it's a stale and boring portrayal of the relationship between Clark, Lois and Jon without any conflict or growth. If you're speaking generally, then perhaps it's to do with Mort Weisenger making Superman into the iconic, optimistic champion of classic American values to keep within the Comics Code Authority guidelines. Either way, I have a feeling it's to do with the belief that the classic depiction of Superman has Rockwellian values of America.

  4. #4
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvenger View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean about the connection between Norman Rockwell and Superman. If it's about Rebirth, then it's a critique mainly expressed by users on this forum to criticise the idyllic, picturesque depiction of the Super Family dynamic by Tomasi and Gleason in their Rebirth run. It's something I don't agree with for the most part but for those who don't like their Rebirth run as much as other fans do, I understand they feel it's a stale and boring portrayal of the relationship between Clark, Lois and Jon without any conflict or growth. If you're speaking generally, then perhaps it's to do with Mort Weisenger making Superman into the iconic, optimistic champion of classic American values to keep within the Comics Code Authority guidelines. Either way, I have a feeling it's to do with the belief that the classic depiction of Superman has Rockwellian values of America.
    Superman: The Movie, and the Byrne Superman run are the one I think of when I talk about Superman being “Rockwellian”. Pre-Crisis Smallville was far too weird to be Rockwellian although Superman himself could be very pro-establishment at times depending on the era. That said yeah there is a Rockwellian influence in Tomasi’s run, particularly stuff like the family vacation (which not coincidentally was the low point of the run in terms of being boring to read imo).

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  6. #6
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    The original Superman would have come up in middle America through the early 20th century. Through all the variations of the character that touch never really went away. But maybe you could say it would have had it not been for the establishment of Ma and Pa as characters in his life.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Tomasi was influenced by some of moore's stories with clark.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lvenger View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean about the connection between Norman Rockwell and Superman. If it's about Rebirth, then it's a critique mainly expressed by users on this forum to criticise the idyllic, picturesque depiction of the Super Family dynamic by Tomasi and Gleason in their Rebirth run. It's something I don't agree with for the most part but for those who don't like their Rebirth run as much as other fans do, I understand they feel it's a stale and boring portrayal of the relationship between Clark, Lois and Jon without any conflict or growth. If you're speaking generally, then perhaps it's to do with Mort Weisenger making Superman into the iconic, optimistic champion of classic American values to keep within the Comics Code Authority guidelines. Either way, I have a feeling it's to do with the belief that the classic depiction of Superman has Rockwellian values of America.
    I wasn't really speaking specifically to the Rebirth era because that was all written as an apology to the Post-Crisis readers who felt burned by the N52. Meaning there must have already been a taste for a Norman Rockwell style depiction of Superman. Personally I've seen people making the correlation for as long as I've been looking into this character from back in the mid 2000's. At some point or another people seemed to have gotten together and said that Rockwell and Superman were essentially two peas in a pod.

    I think you're right that it probably begins with back with CCA restructuring the character to be more "acceptable" but the mentality never went away and continued to unravel the character imo. If I recall Byrne basically said he didn't believe a man could lose his parents as young as Pre-Crisis Superman did without becoming like Batman or something like that and that was why he brought them back. Then you have them getting rid of Superboy because it was too out of the norm for what a "normal" person would have in their childhood. A lot of this Rockwellian stuff seems to be what fuels the hope of normalization for Superman which oddly enough the Weisenger period kind of divorced Superman from somewhat. But then you have the 70 and early 80s which tried to pull back on that. Then you've got Post-Crisis which really kicked the "normal man Clark Kent" mindset into overdrive. Modern Superman is kind of the worst of both worlds not enough wonder and not enough drive or passion.


    As for classic Superman, I think it's a bit odd that a characters classic idea is separate from what the character is in the early and some of his strongest years. Like classic for most characters seems to refer to the beginning of things but for Superman it's referring to some kind of mutually agreed upon mash up of different aspects from different mediums and time periods. Can't be healthy for the character.
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  8. #8
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    For most people, “classic Superman” is Byrne Superman. That’s the Superman they’re stalking about when they’re talking about how Superman is “supposed to be”. Hence all the “edgy” cries when they got a taste of what an actual Siegel and Shuster classic Superman was like in New 52

  9. #9
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    For most people, “classic Superman” is Byrne Superman. That’s the Superman they’re stalking about when they’re talking about how Superman is “supposed to be”. Hence all the “edgy” cries when they got a taste of what an actual Siegel and Shuster classic Superman was like in New 52
    Which is really a shame. Those comics had their place at the time, but they really haven't aged well. it's not because they're old, in comparison a lot of the proto-Vertigo stuff that was released around the same time still holds up FAR better. They are just average comics from the 80s, nostalgia makes them seem better than they actually are.

    For me Superman is supposed to be either the Siegel/Shuster original or the crazy Weisenger period, or preferably a fusion of the two.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    For most people, “classic Superman” is Byrne Superman. That’s the Superman they’re stalking about when they’re talking about how Superman is “supposed to be”. Hence all the “edgy” cries when they got a taste of what an actual Siegel and Shuster classic Superman was like in New 52
    Eh I don't really want to turn this into N52 vs Post-Crisis vs Pre-Crisis thing because I think this is a problem that looms over the franchise as a whole. Personally I agree with Lvenger that it started back with the CAA which as I understand is basically what made Superman get into line with what people though was an acceptable and wholesome American behavior. One that wasn't rocking the boat and causing a ruckus, it shifted his focus more towards scifi stories, mythos building, and unoffensive material. But as the years went on and most characters kind of eventually began to shrug off the shackles of the CAA Super has struggled nightly to do the same with many kind of thinking it makes good contrast for him to be Rockwellian on the backdrop of what is the much wilder world of the DCU.

    I've seen Supes be described as things like "Jesus from Space", "Farmer in Cape", or "Naive Farmboy" etc over "Champion of the Oppressed" for years. I'm not sure if it was just ignorance or if people simply wanted that older stuff buried. It's Superman's own history we should be embracing it rather than trying to cover it up with Rockwellian imagery and ideals.
    Last edited by The World; 11-11-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    The original Superman would have come up in middle America through the early 20th century. Through all the variations of the character that touch never really went away. But maybe you could say it would have had it not been for the establishment of Ma and Pa as characters in his life.
    The original Superman had powers as a kid and it wasn't long before he adventures as one too. Far cry from idyllic, normal, and quaint depictions of life Rockwell was famous for.
    Rules are for lesser men, Charlie - Grand Pa Joe ~ Willy Wonka & Chocolate Factory

  12. #12
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Eh I don't really want to turn this into N52 vs Post-Crisis vs Pre-Crisis thing because I think this is a problem that looms over the franchise as a whole. Personally I agree with Lvenger that it started back with the CAA which as I understand is basically what made Superman get into line with what people though was an acceptable and wholesome American behavior. One that wasn't rocking the boat and causing a ruckus, it shifted his focus more towards scifi stories, mythos building, and unoffensive material. But as the years went on and most characters kind of eventually began to shrug off the shackles of the CAA Super has struggled nightly to do the same with many kind of thinking it makes good contrast for him to be Rockwellian on the backdrop of what is the much wilder world of the DCU.

    I've seen Supes be described as things like "Jesus from Space", "Farmer in Cape", or "Naive Farmboy" etc over "Champion of the Oppressed" for years. I'm not sure if it was just ignorance or if people simply wanted that older stuff buried. It's Superman's own history we should be embracing it rather than trying to cover it up with Rockwellian imagery and ideals.
    Yes but it was Byrne where the focus shifted from “Superman DISGUISED as Clark Kent” to “Clark is who I am, Superman is what I can do” in an effort to make him more of a Marvel character and more “relatable”. That’s not me taking shots at Post Crisis, that’s just simple fact. The idealization of the rural lifestyle and Smallville as a beacon of good old-fashioned American values in contrast to the urban cesspools of Metropolis is something baked into the Donner films (which I like) and the Byrne take which was the foundation for Post Crisis Superman (which I’m far more negative about even if I think Byrne did some good and had some great ideas). Pre-Crisis Superman would NEVER go choose to go be a farmer over being Superman, in stark contrast to Post Crisis Superman who holds a lot of nostalgia for his childhood life and upbringing.

    Pre-Crisis Smallville has freaking mountains and other bat**** insane stuff that make it clear this is no normal small town even before Superman shows up. The Smallville TV show is the closest we’re ever likely to get to that set up lmao!

    And we’ve seen those titles used a lot in ways that don’t make any sense. Given Clark’s power levels and experience it’s flat out idiotic to portray him as naive which is why most writers try to stay away from that. He uses his superhearing and vision to stop crimes which means logically he can hear all the robberies and rapes and all the other nasty stuff happening around the world. For him to be shocked by man’s inhumanity is just pure laziness on the writer’s part. It’s far more interesting when you explore how a man who can hear all that still not lose his faith in humanity.
    Last edited by Vordan; 11-11-2019 at 10:50 AM.

  13. #13
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Superman: The Movie, and the Byrne Superman run are the one I think of when I talk about Superman being “Rockwellian”. Pre-Crisis Smallville was far too weird to be Rockwellian although Superman himself could be very pro-establishment at times depending on the era. That said yeah there is a Rockwellian influence in Tomasi’s run, particularly stuff like the family vacation (which not coincidentally was the low point of the run in terms of being boring to read imo).
    Hamilton is just as wierd if not more wierd than smallville. It has a monster cow and a bunch of alien refugees. Jon is pretty wierd himself.

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Hamilton is just as wierd if not more wierd than smallville. It has a monster cow and a bunch of alien refugees. Jon is pretty wierd himself.
    The monster cow ended up being Manchester Black in the end.

    Surreal, yet hilarious, to see a British cow smoking a cigarette.

  15. #15
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Hamilton is just as wierd if not more wierd than smallville. It has a monster cow and a bunch of alien refugees. Jon is pretty wierd himself.
    Yeah I agree that’s why I pointed out the family vacation as the high “Rockwellian” point. There were always Rockwellian influences but Tomasi did a good job balancing them with the insanity of the Kents lives. The vacation was so boring because it was that Rockwall stuff played straight. Lois and Clark give a very pro-America history lesson to Jon, The End. That’s basically it, there’s no real underlying weirdness or superhero stuff for that arc just a straight up history lesson that’s very sanitized.

    Like we talk about Rockwell being very sanitized and that’s what he’s famous for, but he did occasionally show off a darker side to America: (Racial slur in the painting):
    The Problem We All Live With (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_..._All_Live_With)
    Southern Justice: (https://www.msmuseumart.org/index.ph...in-mississippi)
    If stuff like this had come up in the family vacation it would’ve been much more interesting imo, since Jon would obviously have questions about that stuff and it could be a good opportunity to have Lois give perhaps a more cynical view on American history while Clark gives a more optimistic (but still acknowledging the darker parts) of American history. Would’ve been more interesting than what we got imo.

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