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  1. #16
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yes but it was Byrne where the focus shifted from “Superman DISGUISED as Clark Kent” to “Clark is who I am, Superman is what I can do” in an effort to make him more of a Marvel character and more “relatable”. That’s not me taking shots at Post Crisis, that’s just simple fact. The idealization of the rural lifestyle and Smallville as a beacon of good old-fashioned American values in contrast to the urban cesspools of Metropolis is something baked into the Donner films (which I like) and the Byrne take which was the foundation for Post Crisis Superman (which I’m far more negative about even if I think Byrne did some good and had some great ideas). Pre-Crisis Superman would NEVER go choose to go be a farmer over being Superman, in stark contrast to Post Crisis Superman who holds a lot of nostalgia for his childhood life and upbringing.

    Pre-Crisis Smallville has freaking mountains and other bat**** insane stuff that make it clear this is no normal small town even before Superman shows up. The Smallville TV show is the closest we’re ever likely to get to that set up lmao!

    And we’ve seen those titles used a lot in ways that don’t make any sense. Given Clark’s power levels and experience it’s flat out idiotic to portray him as naive which is why most writers try to stay away from that. He uses his superhearing and vision to stop crimes which means logically he can hear all the robberies and rapes and all the other nasty stuff happening around the world. For him to be shocked by man’s inhumanity is just pure laziness on the writer’s part. It’s far more interesting when you explore how a man who can hear all that still not lose his faith in humanity.
    I think, byrne just removed the fake persona. Clark never played up the part as a comedy character. golden age clark kent is superman. Superman was the name given to the vigilante. It might not even be a term of endearment.
    As for being a farmer, when you think about it. Silverage guy was really super intelligent. He would feel shackled in Smallville. Postcrisis guy isn't supposed to be superintelligent(except for when morrison writes him) . So, he would never get that. Ofcourse he would love deep connection with his pa's work as well as his own writing job. I think killing of both parents of for the silverage guy was a wrong decision. Morrison had the right idea keeping ma alive. I am not a fan of crazed loner characterisation for silverage guy. For the goldenage guy it fits. That guy wasn't really supposed to be raised in the heartlands of america in a farm. Silverage guy wasn't really a vigilante The goldenage guy was. Dead parents thing was something that silverage guy got due to transition from goldenage to silverage rather than a clean reboot.it is'nt something that was planned.For me, all three of them have their strengths and weaknesses. They appeal to different audiences. You can't do something like superman for all seasons with the silverage guy because that wouldn't be in character for that guy.

  2. #17
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah I agree that’s why I pointed out the family vacation as the high “Rockwellian” point. There were always Rockwellian influences but Tomasi did a good job balancing them with the insanity of the Kents lives. The vacation was so boring because it was that Rockwall stuff played straight. Lois and Clark give a very pro-America history lesson to Jon, The End. That’s basically it, there’s no real underlying weirdness or superhero stuff for that arc just a straight up history lesson that’s very sanitized.

    Like we talk about Rockwell being very sanitized and that’s what he’s famous for, but he did occasionally show off a darker side to America: (Racial slur in the painting):
    The Problem We All Live With (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_..._All_Live_With)
    Southern Justice: (https://www.msmuseumart.org/index.ph...in-mississippi)
    If stuff like this had come up in the family vacation it would’ve been much more interesting imo, since Jon would obviously have questions about that stuff and it could be a good opportunity to have Lois give perhaps a more cynical view on American history while Clark gives a more optimistic (but still acknowledging the darker parts) of American history. Would’ve been more interesting than what we got imo.
    I remember the issue coming out during the american independence day. So, it's quite understandable being a little nationalistic. So, i just didn't mind it.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Maybe the influence is that Superman is wholesome and pure. Someone who always tries to do the right thing, someone who is nice and was raised well by decent and hard-working lower class parents.

  4. #19
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I remember the issue coming out during the american independence day. So, it's quite understandable being a little nationalistic. So, i just didn't mind it.
    I wouldn’t have minded it if it had just been a one and done issue, but it was two issues I think and the sales really started dropping afterwards. And that’s just my own preferences lol, I have no doubt some people enjoyed those issues.

  5. #20
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I wouldn’t have minded it if it had just been a one and done issue, but it was two issues I think and the sales really started dropping afterwards. And that’s just my own preferences lol, I have no doubt some people enjoyed those issues.
    it wasn't the best. But it was nowhere near bad enough for anyone to consider dropping it. Also, starting of it was great with the exhausted clark kind of mirroring tomasi himself . No, if i remember it was during the fill-ins that sales dropped. Other writers started filling in during that period.Tomasi was really struggling with the scheduling. It was natural he was getting burned out. Even then when he cam back he delievered.Also,he had to write for the death of superman movie

  6. #21
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    Meaning there must have already been a taste for a Norman Rockwell style depiction of Superman. Personally I've seen people making the correlation for as long as I've been looking into this character from back in the mid 2000's.
    I think for the modern chapter you have to blame For All Seasons at the very latest.

    If I recall Byrne basically said he didn't believe a man could lose his parents as young as Pre-Crisis Superman did without becoming like Batman or something like that and that was why he brought them back. Then you have them getting rid of Superboy because it was too out of the norm for what a "normal" person would have in their childhood.
    Byrne's starting points were the early versions of the origin where Pa inspired Clark to become Superman from his deathbed and then how Superboy changed all that. Keep in mind of course that Byrne's earliest take had a different approach to the beginning of his superhero career, but his point was that the deathbed inspiration and killing of the characters were arbitrary, as Superman doesn't need a lesson in becoming a good guy.

    http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/...rne-interview/



    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    For most people, “classic Superman” is Byrne Superman. That’s the Superman they’re stalking about when they’re talking about how Superman is “supposed to be”. Hence all the “edgy” cries when they got a taste of what an actual Siegel and Shuster classic Superman was like in New 52
    By the time Superboy was introduced, Siegel already had a different approach to Superman though. The chapter with yellow lining on the boots was already more humorous and "superhero" than the street level stuff for which the creators are usually cited. If they tried the earliest take on Superman around when O'Neil came on (and you can argue that that's really what he tried anyway) you could probably get people who were used to the 60s Siegel to cry about the rough edges.

    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    The original Superman had powers as a kid and it wasn't long before he adventures as one too. Far cry from idyllic, normal, and quaint depictions of life Rockwell was famous for.
    The unpacked, earliest take from the strips extended the introductions of Jor-L and Krypton. There was virtually nothing on his uprbinging though, where apparently he just stayed an orphan. You could assume that it was quiet enough though given he's perfectly established to be living as Clark before Superman or his introduction to the Daily Star shortly after. The 40s intro of Superboy is a big part of this whole thing, but I'd also point out that it really wasn't a continuity that early on either. The Superboy feature really didn't define the Superman features, and even looking at it separately from what (little) I've seen it took a bit before Smallville was a wacky setting as opposed to being a normal home to a wacky Super boy.

    When it comes to his mission, going back to your earlier post, there isn't really a connection between his upbringing amd decision to fight for the little guy. That fits no matter which origin you give him, provided you're not subject to playing in the big DC sandbox.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Pre-Crisis Smallville has freaking mountains and other bat**** insane stuff that make it clear this is no normal small town even before Superman shows up.
    The Rockwell thing seems like a broad and slightly pejorative term. It does fit as a description in a sense but the emphasis is kind of defeated with things like the Manhunters of Millennium or the flat out alien cast of Hamilton as others have taken into account.
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  7. #22
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    it wasn't the best. But it was nowhere near bad enough for anyone to consider dropping it. Also, starting of it was great with the exhausted clark kind of mirroring tomasi himself . No, if i remember it was during the fill-ins that sales dropped. Other writers started filling in during that period.Tomasi was really struggling with the scheduling. It was natural he was getting burned out. Even then when he cam back he delievered.Also,he had to write for the death of superman movie
    Yet iirc that was indeed the point where you started seeing lots of drop off. Plus it was only the start of about 3 months of filler.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I think for the modern chapter you have to blame For All Seasons at the very latest.



    Byrne's starting points were the early versions of the origin where Pa inspired Clark to become Superman from his deathbed and then how Superboy changed all that. Keep in mind of course that Byrne's earliest take had a different approach to the beginning of his superhero career, but his point was that the deathbed inspiration and killing of the characters were arbitrary, as Superman doesn't need a lesson in becoming a good guy.

    http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/...rne-interview/





    By the time Superboy was introduced, Siegel already had a different approach to Superman though. The chapter with yellow lining on the boots was already more humorous and "superhero" than the street level stuff for which the creators are usually cited. If they tried the earliest take on Superman around when O'Neil came on (and you can argue that that's really what he tried anyway) you could probably get people who were used to the 60s Siegel to cry about the rough edges.



    The unpacked, earliest take from the strips extended the introductions of Jor-L and Krypton. There was virtually nothing on his uprbinging though, where apparently he just stayed an orphan. You could assume that it was quiet enough though given he's perfectly established to be living as Clark before Superman or his introduction to the Daily Star shortly after. The 40s intro of Superboy is a big part of this whole thing, but I'd also point out that it really wasn't a continuity that early on either. The Superboy feature really didn't define the Superman features, and even looking at it separately from what (little) I've seen it took a bit before Smallville was a wacky setting as opposed to being a normal home to a wacky Super boy.

    When it comes to his mission, going back to your earlier post, there isn't really a connection between his upbringing amd decision to fight for the little guy. That fits no matter which origin you give him, provided you're not subject to playing in the big DC sandbox.



    The Rockwell thing seems like a broad and slightly pejorative term. It does fit as a description in a sense but the emphasis is kind of defeated with things like the Manhunters of Millennium or the flat out alien cast of Hamilton as others have taken into account.
    Yeah I wouldn’t say Jon’s upbringing was Rockwellian at all, in full agreement with you there. Jon was basically Pre-Crisis Superboy in terms of his insane upbringing lol.

  8. #23
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I can see it if someone is talking about the sentiments and sometimes what seems like direct reference, even if as parody or subversion. I know it's not the topic focus but it really is a strong case, as Rebirth was far more its own beast than a return of old continuity.

    Before that I think the biggest thing is most of the time they took a foot off the alien pedal. I wish I was more familiar with the setting shenanigans of the old Superboy. That continuity really had some hurdles.
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  9. #24
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Superman: The Movie, and the Byrne Superman run are the one I think of when I talk about Superman being “Rockwellian”. Pre-Crisis Smallville was far too weird to be Rockwellian although Superman himself could be very pro-establishment at times depending on the era. That said yeah there is a Rockwellian influence in Tomasi’s run, particularly stuff like the family vacation (which not coincidentally was the low point of the run in terms of being boring to read imo).
    Those are some prime examples of the Rockwellian-Superman connection people talk about. But like The World says later on, I do think the Mort Weisenger era onwards was the beginning of the depiction of Superman as this Rockwellian champion of American values. Or to think of it another way, it was when Superman started to earn the nickname 'Big Blue Boyscout.'

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    So for many years when I first began to learn more about Superman there has been one thing I've encountered time and time again which the more I learn seems more and more strange. This weird connection some see between Norman Rockwell who was an American Artist who often painted very serene and idyllic pictures of American life and Superman who at the smallest building block is about spending great energy to fight evil.

    Rockwell's general high point is considered to be around the 30's 40's which is right around the time Superman was coming in to be and what's going on in Rockwell's art and what's happening in the pages of Superman are showing two very different views of the world and American life. Rockwell is depicting a very rosy view of what America could be like and Superman is depicting the hard times and the problems that the little guy was suffering. They're frankly the polar opposites that modern comics try to make Batman and Superman, they have little in common imo besides presumed time setting.
    I think it comes down to the way both comics, radio and television all came into the lives of American boys during the 40s and 50s, especially the TV show. George Reeves certainly didn't portray an idyllic world in his Superman show, in fact the debut movie is about a small-minded mob trying to kill a pair of alien explorers just because they look different. It's an incisive tragedy about xenophobia and the danger of "othering" those who are different from us instead of trying to make friends. But of course the way these stories came into American life, through relaxed evenings sitting around a TV set or a radio, through lazy summer days reading comic books in the warm grass, during a time period which has itself become idealized however wrongly, leads to an association of George Reeves with Norman Rockwell-esque homey happiness. Makes enough sense to me. My only real problem with it is how such a false view of the Superman franchise often leads to people dismissing that era of Superman, or anything that comes before '86, based on the Rockwell impression, and without any attempt to read the stories themselves, which are often, as you pointed out, "depicting the hard times and the problems that the little guy was suffering," which is I think a much more important kind of story than "Leave it to Beaver".

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    For me Superman is supposed to be either the Siegel/Shuster original or the crazy Weisenger period, or preferably a fusion of the two.
    I don't think there's ever really been a solid, long running fusion of the two, but I'd be way past down for it. A relatively scaled down Superman who's a little impulsive with real roughneck tendencies and a hot streak of political engagement running through his core, but who also brings his cousin and his dog along with him to fight the New Brainiac and Bizarro Team-Up! Or something like that.

    Imagine a Will Eisner-esque Metropolis co-existing with a Weisinger era wider Superman universe! I can almost taste the tension, and I'd be extremely hyped to see how it turns out.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  11. #26
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I don't think there's ever really been a solid, long running fusion of the two, but I'd be way past down for it. A relatively scaled down Superman who's a little impulsive with real roughneck tendencies and a hot streak of political engagement running through his core, but who also brings his cousin and his dog along with him to fight the New Brainiac and Bizarro Team-Up! Or something like that.

    Imagine a Will Eisner-esque Metropolis co-existing with a Weisinger era wider Superman universe! I can almost taste the tension, and I'd be extremely hyped to see how it turns out.
    I think Morisson's Action is the only close example of that we have, but I'd be down for more of it.

    And that idea sounds excellent.

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