So where did the Rockwellian thing even come from?

[The World]

So for many years when I first began to learn more about Superman there has been one thing I've encountered time and time again which the more I learn seems more and more strange. This weird connection some see between Norman Rockwell who was an American Artist who often painted very serene and idyllic pictures of American life and Superman who at the smallest building block is about spending great energy to fight evil.

Rockwell's general high point is considered to be around the 30's 40's which is right around the time Superman was coming in to be and what's going on in Rockwell's art and what's happening in the pages of Superman are showing two very different views of the world and American life. Rockwell is depicting a very rosy view of what America could be like and Superman is depicting the hard times and the problems that the little guy was suffering. They're frankly the polar opposites that modern comics try to make Batman and Superman, they have little in common imo besides presumed time setting.

[manwhohaseverything]

Tomasi was influenced by some of moore's stories with clark.

[Lvenger]

I'm not sure what you mean about the connection between Norman Rockwell and Superman. If it's about Rebirth, then it's a critique mainly expressed by users on this forum to criticise the idyllic, picturesque depiction of the Super Family dynamic by Tomasi and Gleason in their Rebirth run. It's something I don't agree with for the most part but for those who don't like their Rebirth run as much as other fans do, I understand they feel it's a stale and boring portrayal of the relationship between Clark, Lois and Jon without any conflict or growth. If you're speaking generally, then perhaps it's to do with Mort Weisenger making Superman into the iconic, optimistic champion of classic American values to keep within the Comics Code Authority guidelines. Either way, I have a feeling it's to do with the belief that the classic depiction of Superman has Rockwellian values of America.

[Vordan]

I'm not sure what you mean about the connection between Norman Rockwell and Superman. If it's about Rebirth, then it's a critique mainly expressed by users on this forum to criticise the idyllic, picturesque depiction of the Super Family dynamic by Tomasi and Gleason in their Rebirth run. It's something I don't agree with for the most part but for those who don't like their Rebirth run as much as other fans do, I understand they feel it's a stale and boring portrayal of the relationship between Clark, Lois and Jon without any conflict or growth. If you're speaking generally, then perhaps it's to do with Mort Weisenger making Superman into the iconic, optimistic champion of classic American values to keep within the Comics Code Authority guidelines. Either way, I have a feeling it's to do with the belief that the classic depiction of Superman has Rockwellian values of America.

Superman: The Movie, and the Byrne Superman run are the one I think of when I talk about Superman being “Rockwellian”. Pre-Crisis Smallville was far too weird to be Rockwellian although Superman himself could be very pro-establishment at times depending on the era. That said yeah there is a Rockwellian influence in Tomasi’s run, particularly stuff like the family vacation (which not coincidentally was the low point of the run in terms of being boring to read imo).

[Jim Kelly]

[Kuwagaton]

The original Superman would have come up in middle America through the early 20th century. Through all the variations of the character that touch never really went away. But maybe you could say it would have had it not been for the establishment of Ma and Pa as characters in his life.

[manwhohaseverything]

Superman: The Movie, and the Byrne Superman run are the one I think of when I talk about Superman being “Rockwellian”. Pre-Crisis Smallville was far too weird to be Rockwellian although Superman himself could be very pro-establishment at times depending on the era. That said yeah there is a Rockwellian influence in Tomasi’s run, particularly stuff like the family vacation (which not coincidentally was the low point of the run in terms of being boring to read imo).

Hamilton is just as wierd if not more wierd than smallville. It has a monster cow and a bunch of alien refugees. Jon is pretty wierd himself.

[Jackalope89]

Hamilton is just as wierd if not more wierd than smallville. It has a monster cow and a bunch of alien refugees. Jon is pretty wierd himself.

The monster cow ended up being Manchester Black in the end.

Surreal, yet hilarious, to see a British cow smoking a cigarette.

[Vordan]

Hamilton is just as wierd if not more wierd than smallville. It has a monster cow and a bunch of alien refugees. Jon is pretty wierd himself.

Yeah I agree that’s why I pointed out the family vacation as the high “Rockwellian” point. There were always Rockwellian influences but Tomasi did a good job balancing them with the insanity of the Kents lives. The vacation was so boring because it was that Rockwall stuff played straight. Lois and Clark give a very pro-America history lesson to Jon, The End. That’s basically it, there’s no real underlying weirdness or superhero stuff for that arc just a straight up history lesson that’s very sanitized.

Like we talk about Rockwell being very sanitized and that’s what he’s famous for, but he did occasionally show off a darker side to America: (Racial slur in the painting):
The Problem We All Live With (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_..._All_Live_With)
Southern Justice: (https://www.msmuseumart.org/index.ph...in-mississippi)
If stuff like this had come up in the family vacation it would’ve been much more interesting imo, since Jon would obviously have questions about that stuff and it could be a good opportunity to have Lois give perhaps a more cynical view on American history while Clark gives a more optimistic (but still acknowledging the darker parts) of American history. Would’ve been more interesting than what we got imo.

[Lvenger]

Superman: The Movie, and the Byrne Superman run are the one I think of when I talk about Superman being “Rockwellian”. Pre-Crisis Smallville was far too weird to be Rockwellian although Superman himself could be very pro-establishment at times depending on the era. That said yeah there is a Rockwellian influence in Tomasi’s run, particularly stuff like the family vacation (which not coincidentally was the low point of the run in terms of being boring to read imo).

Those are some prime examples of the Rockwellian-Superman connection people talk about. But like The World says later on, I do think the Mort Weisenger era onwards was the beginning of the depiction of Superman as this Rockwellian champion of American values. Or to think of it another way, it was when Superman started to earn the nickname 'Big Blue Boyscout.'

[Adekis]

So for many years when I first began to learn more about Superman there has been one thing I've encountered time and time again which the more I learn seems more and more strange. This weird connection some see between Norman Rockwell who was an American Artist who often painted very serene and idyllic pictures of American life and Superman who at the smallest building block is about spending great energy to fight evil.

Rockwell's general high point is considered to be around the 30's 40's which is right around the time Superman was coming in to be and what's going on in Rockwell's art and what's happening in the pages of Superman are showing two very different views of the world and American life. Rockwell is depicting a very rosy view of what America could be like and Superman is depicting the hard times and the problems that the little guy was suffering. They're frankly the polar opposites that modern comics try to make Batman and Superman, they have little in common imo besides presumed time setting.

I think it comes down to the way both comics, radio and television all came into the lives of American boys during the 40s and 50s, especially the TV show. George Reeves certainly didn't portray an idyllic world in his Superman show, in fact the debut movie is about a small-minded mob trying to kill a pair of alien explorers just because they look different. It's an incisive tragedy about xenophobia and the danger of "othering" those who are different from us instead of trying to make friends. But of course the way these stories came into American life, through relaxed evenings sitting around a TV set or a radio, through lazy summer days reading comic books in the warm grass, during a time period which has itself become idealized however wrongly, leads to an association of George Reeves with Norman Rockwell-esque homey happiness. Makes enough sense to me. My only real problem with it is how such a false view of the Superman franchise often leads to people dismissing that era of Superman, or anything that comes before '86, based on the Rockwell impression, and without any attempt to read the stories themselves, which are often, as you pointed out, "depicting the hard times and the problems that the little guy was suffering," which is I think a much more important kind of story than "Leave it to Beaver".

For me Superman is supposed to be either the Siegel/Shuster original or the crazy Weisenger period, or preferably a fusion of the two.

I don't think there's ever really been a solid, long running fusion of the two, but I'd be way past down for it. A relatively scaled down Superman who's a little impulsive with real roughneck tendencies and a hot streak of political engagement running through his core, but who also brings his cousin and his dog along with him to fight the New Brainiac and Bizarro Team-Up! Or something like that.

Imagine a Will Eisner-esque Metropolis co-existing with a Weisinger era wider Superman universe! I can almost taste the tension, and I'd be extremely hyped to see how it turns out.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think there's ever really been a solid, long running fusion of the two, but I'd be way past down for it. A relatively scaled down Superman who's a little impulsive with real roughneck tendencies and a hot streak of political engagement running through his core, but who also brings his cousin and his dog along with him to fight the New Brainiac and Bizarro Team-Up! Or something like that.

Imagine a Will Eisner-esque Metropolis co-existing with a Weisinger era wider Superman universe! I can almost taste the tension, and I'd be extremely hyped to see how it turns out.

I think Morisson's Action is the only close example of that we have, but I'd be down for more of it.

And that idea sounds excellent.