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  1. #166
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Why is Mystique flashing her p--sy to everyone?
    Her opening petition to get Destiny reincarnated.

  2. #167
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    what failed story would writers not let go of? Scott's "role" in the Terrigen era was immediately forgotten after he was exonerated in DoX/IvX.
    Scott being the villain of Schism/AvX. The entire era was spent trashing him as the most evil mutant to walk the Earth. And editorial doubled down every time anyone questioned that narrative.

  3. #168
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Scott being the villain of Schism/AvX. The entire era was spent trashing him as the most evil mutant to walk the Earth. And editorial doubled down every time anyone questioned that narrative.
    Oh okay. Yeah, nothing in the writing supported that. I felt like Bendis still wrote him as sympathetic with many redeeming qualities even if thats not how editorial percieved him to be following the stuff he had done

  4. #169
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Oh okay. Yeah, nothing in the writing supported that. I felt like Bendis still wrote him as sympathetic with many redeeming qualities even if thats not how editorial percieved him to be following the stuff he had done
    Bendis wanted to have a morally gray conflict, but the writer for Wolverine was Jason Aaron. Which meant that Cyclops was a mix of Satan and Skeletor whose piss is pure liquid malevolence when it was Aaron at the pen. So Bendis had to write Cyclops as an angel to simply counteract Aaron's damage.

  5. #170
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    The Cyclops vs Bishop bad writing/character heel turn. In think i this comparison you have to look at the long term damage. What happened to Cyke did not and has not stuck, while in the case of Bishop it is something that will stick with the character for a long time. When Bishop is mentioned some people still focus on him trying to kill Hope and committing genocide, while you hardly hear of anyone comparing Cyke to Hitler. Both were bad for the characters, but it has affected how Bishop is viewed more, imo.
    Last edited by Tazpocalapse; 11-12-2019 at 05:36 PM. Reason: missing a letter.

  6. #171
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    The Cyclops vs Bishop bad writing/character heel turn. I think i this comparison you have to look at the long term damage. What happened to Cyke did not and has not stuck, while in the case of Bishop it is something that will stick with the character for a long time. When Bishop is mentioned some people still focus on him trying to kill Hope and committing genocide, while you hardly hear of anyone comparing Cyke to Hitler. Both were bad for the characters, but it has affected how Bishop is viewed more, imo.
    Not in universe. No one has mentioned what Bishop did since Hope did once. It was completely forgiven by everyone.

    Cyclops was forgiven completely by Deus Ex Hickman, but that still feels cheap to me.

  7. #172
    Astonishing Member Tazpocalapse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Not in universe. No one has mentioned what Bishop did since Hope did once. It was completely forgiven by everyone.

    Cyclops was forgiven completely by Deus Ex Hickman, but that still feels cheap to me.
    Yes outside of the X-men and extended family many do not have knowledge of what Bishop did during the time jaunts. Some X-fans still have what Bishop did as a crucial point of his history with the X-men.. I think in the realm of fandom what Bishop did is still a stain on his character.

  8. #173
    Incredible Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Thy could have achieved those plans by actually writing him out of character and as an irredeemable psychopath monster like they did with Bishop, but they didnt, which was my point. It was all talk which ultimately didnt matter. They did worse with him in AvX where we actually saw him go Dark Phoenix. People are focusing on the wrong thing. Being called Hitler means diddly squat without anything to back it up. Being shown to actually be a Hitler speaks more volumes
    But, imo, the main goal at the time was to remove Cyclops from the X-books and put other characters in the spotlight. Marvel chose to do so by making him evil, using a time skip and trying to build some cheap mistery about the horrible thing he did.
    Thats why he wasn't character assassinated on page, they wanted to do it off panel, what probably saved the carácter.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Bendis wanted to have a morally gray conflict, but the writer for Wolverine was Jason Aaron. Which meant that Cyclops was a mix of Satan and Skeletor whose piss is pure liquid malevolence when it was Aaron at the pen. So Bendis had to write Cyclops as an angel to simply counteract Aaron's damage.
    Didn't Aaron start Schism as well? But to be fair to Aaron, the dude wrote a (tone deaf) reconciliation chapter between Cyke and Logan. But editorial / future authors decided to ignore that in favor of the "Cyke is evil" narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    The Cyclops vs Bishop bad writing/character heel turn. In think i this comparison you have to look at the long term damage. What happened to Cyke did not and has not stuck, while in the case of Bishop it is something that will stick with the character for a long time. When Bishop is mentioned some people still focus on him trying to kill Hope and committing genocide, while you hardly hear of anyone comparing Cyke to Hitler. Both were bad for the characters, but it has affected how Bishop is viewed more, imo.
    Honestly? I've been advocating for a while that it'd actually be nice if the writers had shown Cyke to be this moustache-twirling hybrid of Satan and Skeletor. But in the end, we got a lot of on-panel telling / whining, and when they finally tried to show Cyke's misdeed in Death of X, we find out that it wasn't actually Cyke, and the biggest thing Cyke actually did was try to stop a fart cloud from killing mutants. Show the dude actually committing genocide to justify the allegations. I'm not even going to bother touching AvX because by this point, everyone's got their own opinions on what went down. Suffice it to say, Cyke's got the plausible alibi of Phoenix Possession / Madness. Like... I don't know? That doesn't sound as bad as Bishop blowing up a planet in his quest to kill a child...

    In Bishop's case, Marvel could have actually written a better redemption story for him instead of Uncanny X-Force's route of demon bear possession and claiming to be just as much Hope's dad as Cable. Looking at it from Bishop's perspective, Hope was the herald to his bad future, and he was doing all he could to prevent it.
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    When will Logan call out Jean for putting his clone and his clone's underage clone in an X-Squad?

  10. #175
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Not in universe. No one has mentioned what Bishop did since Hope did once. It was completely forgiven by everyone.

    Cyclops was forgiven completely by Deus Ex Hickman, but that still feels cheap to me.
    It was brought back on Uncanny x-force and also on Disamssembled.

    Cyclops was forgiven the moment they knew that it wasn't Cyclops doing, but it was Emma illusion

    Quote Originally Posted by xiyon View Post
    Didn't Aaron start Schism as well? But to be fair to Aaron, the dude wrote a (tone deaf) reconciliation chapter between Cyke and Logan. But editorial / future authors decided to ignore that in favor of the "Cyke is evil" narrative.



    Honestly? I've been advocating for a while that it'd actually be nice if the writers had shown Cyke to be this moustache-twirling hybrid of Satan and Skeletor. But in the end, we got a lot of on-panel telling / whining, and when they finally tried to show Cyke's misdeed in Death of X, we find out that it wasn't actually Cyke, and the biggest thing Cyke actually did was try to stop a fart cloud from killing mutants. Show the dude actually committing genocide to justify the allegations. I'm not even going to bother touching AvX because by this point, everyone's got their own opinions on what went down. Suffice it to say, Cyke's got the plausible alibi of Phoenix Possession / Madness. Like... I don't know? That doesn't sound as bad as Bishop blowing up a planet in his quest to kill a child...

    In Bishop's case, Marvel could have actually written a better redemption story for him instead of Uncanny X-Force's route of demon bear possession and claiming to be just as much Hope's dad as Cable. Looking at it from Bishop's perspective, Hope was the herald to his bad future, and he was doing all he could to prevent it.
    The hwole Bendis run was a redempiton of Scott and him abandoning violence/extreme ways.

    Bishop wasn't under possession of Demon Bear when he was after Hope.

    The only way Bishop could be reasonable is if Hope really causes his distopian future. The narrative clearly put it as he was wrong.

    It could be a nice narrative if what saves mutants could also doom them on the future, but they went the simplistic way with character assassination
    Last edited by spirit2011; 11-12-2019 at 07:01 PM.

  11. #176
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Bendis wanted to have a morally gray conflict, but the writer for Wolverine was Jason Aaron. Which meant that Cyclops was a mix of Satan and Skeletor whose piss is pure liquid malevolence when it was Aaron at the pen. So Bendis had to write Cyclops as an angel to simply counteract Aaron's damage.
    Did Aaron really do that bc from what I recall, he just had characters hating on Cyclops. His Cyclops wasnt actually written as some horrific monster
    Last edited by Havok83; 11-12-2019 at 08:34 PM.

  12. #177
    Spectacular Member Coatl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazpocalapse View Post
    The Cyclops vs Bishop bad writing/character heel turn. In think i this comparison you have to look at the long term damage. What happened to Cyke did not and has not stuck, while in the case of Bishop it is something that will stick with the character for a long time. When Bishop is mentioned some people still focus on him trying to kill Hope and committing genocide, while you hardly hear of anyone comparing Cyke to Hitler. Both were bad for the characters, but it has affected how Bishop is viewed more, imo.
    Well Cyclops was for a long time reviled by other characters in universe, I think that the reason that the "Evil Cyclops" didn't stick is because the reader out universe talked about how ridiculous was trying to compare Cyclops, with Cyclops when the worst thing he did was exactly trying to avoid that a very uptight and classist society exterminated his race via poisonous cloud. While there is not a lot of excuse for Bishop actions still he was just occasionally called out about it once he stooped.
    "And you eater of world. May you taste our righteous fire, And choke on it. For my planet's sake, I spit my last breath at thee"

  13. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coatl View Post
    Well Cyclops was for a long time reviled by other characters in universe, I think that the reason that the "Evil Cyclops" didn't stick is because the reader out universe talked about how ridiculous was trying to compare Cyclops, with Cyclops when the worst thing he did was exactly trying to avoid that a very uptight and classist society exterminated his race via poisonous cloud. While there is not a lot of excuse for Bishop actions still he was just occasionally called out about it once he stooped.
    I mean, basically this. Readers saw Bishop do some heinous stuff and whether or not that's horrendously OOC or has been properly addressed, it's canon. Hilter-clops is all based on writers and editors assuring us that Cyclops did something very, very bad, really awful, and everyone believes this because the Inhumans say so... and practically none of that is on the page.

    This Week's Comics: Old Guard: Force Multiplied #2, Excalibur #6, Marauders #6

  14. #179
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Did Aaron really that do bc from what I recall, he just had characters hating on Cyclops. His Cyclops wasnt actually written as some horrific monster
    For the little i remember, Aaron Cyclops was pretty normal. The X-Men hated him, but in no point he did act like some sort of monster.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It was brought back on Uncanny x-force and also on Disamssembled.

    Cyclops was forgiven the moment they knew that it wasn't Cyclops doing, but it was Emma illusion
    I think this was supposed to happen, but like Aaron's reconciliation issue, it got ignored by future writers. In this case, Rosenbublé.

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    The only way Bishop could be reasonable is if Hope really causes his distopian future. The narrative clearly put it as he was wrong.

    It could be a nice narrative if what saves mutants could also doom them on the future, but they went the simplistic way with character assassination
    I was honestly banking on this post-AvX. Like, a callback to Avengers X-Sanction when Cable was warning Cyke not to let the Avengers get their hands on Hope. But alas, nothing came out of that. In hindsight, it was silly getting hyped up over these loosely-connected comic books.
    Don't like? Don't read. Let your wallet talk.

    When will Logan call out Jean for putting his clone and his clone's underage clone in an X-Squad?

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