Cynics shouldn’t be Writing Superman.

[mathew101281]

The character is too optimistic, and idealistic for most modern writers, so we wind up with a bunch of stories about breaking down the tropes of the Superman myth. Batman fits the general world view of most modern writers better, that’s why he has overtaken Superman in recent years.

Superman, and Shazam are “child-like wonder,” characters and increasingly that is something that modern superhero writers find hard to write.

[lotchj]

The character is too optimistic, and idealistic for most modern writers, so we wind up with a bunch of stories about breaking down the tropes of the Superman myth. Batman fits the general world view of most modern writers better, that’s why he has overtaken Superman in recent years.

Superman, and Shazam are “child-like wonder,” characters and increasingly that is something that modern superhero writers find hard to write.

I strongly disagree with you that superman is a child-like wonder!! When I read a superman comic or watch a superman movie it's refreshing!! It's refreshing to have a character that is optimistic and idealistic, that give people hope!! I'm not a big fan of Batman!! I don't like his darkness!

[Agent Z]

How are we defining cynics here?

[Vordan]

Garth Ennis of all people wrote a great Superman so I kind of disagree? And Hickman is a pretty cynical writer who I think could write an amazing Superman given his Sun God and Hyperion.

[SiegePerilous02]

Garth Ennis of all people wrote a great Superman so I kind of disagree? And Hickman is a pretty cynical writer who I think could write an amazing Superman given his Sun God and Hyperion.

Maybe cynics who know when it is appropriate to be cynical and when not to be? if given the chance, Ennis and Hickman might be able to do it. I would especially love if the latter came to DC to write Superman after he's done with the X-Men.

[DochaDocha]

A cynical guy is welcome so long as he can write a character who falls outside his own world view.

[manwhohaseverything]

The character is too optimistic, and idealistic for most modern writers, so we wind up with a bunch of stories about breaking down the tropes of the Superman myth. Batman fits the general world view of most modern writers better, that’s why he has overtaken Superman in recent years.

Superman, and Shazam are “child-like wonder,” characters and increasingly that is something that modern superhero writers find hard to write.

Read the first 10 issues of action comics or superman and say that to me again. Superman is child like wonder when taken in that context like tbe fleischer cartoons.

[Kuwagaton]

I don't think there's a whole type of people who shouldn't write a character, but defensive writing for Superman is one of my least favorite things. If a depiction boils down to "nuh uh he's cool see?!" I see it as an uphill battle. There are people who won't like him, but don't worry about that.

[Vordan]

I don't think there's a whole type of people who shouldn't write a character, but defensive writing for Superman is one of my least favorite things. If a depiction boils down to "nuh uh he's cool see?!" I see it as an uphill battle. There are people who won't like him, but don't worry about that.

I agree with this.

[Robanker]

I don't think there's a whole type of people who shouldn't write a character, but defensive writing for Superman is one of my least favorite things. If a depiction boils down to "nuh uh he's cool see?!" I see it as an uphill battle. There are people who won't like him, but don't worry about that.

This. I think the only people who shouldn't write for characters are one who hate them inherently and want to mangle them into what makes them appealing for said writer. If you're a cynic, but you can appreciate what Superman represents and think he's an exception, go for it. Ennis writes a pretty good Superman when he's trying. If your mantra going in is "my source material/IP sucks and I need to fix it," you're probably not going to do a great job. If you're going in thinking "well, this guy is probably a bit too naive, but perhaps I can have him meet my world view and see why he can continue being himself in light of my perspective" then there's absolutely merit in writing that story.

Let's not forget that every time Clark is holding a collapsing building up, he's probably hearing someone burn to death in an electrical fire. He can't save everyone, but he tries and continues to believe in the better of us even though he can probably hear a sexual assault happening while he's helping evacuate said burning building. He knows awful things happen. I think it was Garth Ennis who wrote that Superman had to look someone in the eye as they died while they had complete faith he'd save them. That's a very cynical moment where Clark came through perfectly.

Cynics absolutely should write Superman, as should optimists. The more view points we use to chisel away at Clark, the more clearly we can refine him as a character. The devil is in the details. When that chisel becomes a sledgehammer, we have a problem. The point is to flesh him out, not strip him down.

[Adekis]

If your mantra going in is "my source material/IP sucks and I need to fix it," you're probably not going to do a great job.

I think that just about sums it up for me.

I pretty strongly disagree with the idea that cynics can't write Superman. There's a streak of cynicism in Superman himself which is often forgotten or swept under the rug by fans and writers who only see the inspirational in him, but this is a character working as a journalist in the big city. He sees the injustices of life on Earth sixteen times before breakfast. His original bread and butter was seeing a social issue like corrupt politicians, immoral labor bosses, social Darwinists, etc. and nailing them to the wall with cartoonish enthusiasm. There's room in that character for a streak of cynicism or pragmatism, and many writers give it to him here and there. It might even just be in as subtle away as giving Clark a tendency toward barbed remarks, and I'm there for that too. If anything, I might be interested in seeing Superman be cynical more often.

And yet, all that said, to write Superman, you need to like Superman. Nobody who thinks Superman is a broken idea, in need of fixing, should write him. Nobody who thinks that Superman doesn't need a secret identity, or that he and Lois should have constant relationship problems, or that any joy or wonder in the character is only fit to ignore, should write Superman.

[Ascended]

I believe that any writer should be allowed to write Superman provided he or she is talented enough (and has an interesting story), regardless of their (perceived) world view or writing style. In my opinion, stifling art/creativity is wrong or saying this person can/can't write Superman because you disagree with their world view is wrong. Suggesting that A-list talents like Hickman (my dream Superman writer), Ellis or even Bendis shouldn't be writing Superman is very concerning.

This.

First hand experience is not necessary for writing. It helps, but writing outside your own life is what imagination is for. And by this logic, Moore would never have written Superman. As far as I'm concerned that proves the theory false right there.

And yet, all that said, to write Superman, you need to like Superman. Nobody who thinks Superman is a broken idea, in need of fixing, should write him. Nobody who thinks that Superman doesn't need a secret identity, or that he and Lois should have constant relationship problems, or that any joy or wonder in the character is only fit to ignore, should write Superman.

And also this. Oh my god, if you don't like Superman, don't take the damn job. Hell, half the reason I'm cool with (most of) Lobdell's New52 Supes is just because you could tell the guy's heart was in it. If you love Superman but you miss a lot of the nuance (like Lobdell) I'm still willing to give it a shot; your gonna give it everything you got. But if you don't love the character, no amount of literary analysis or understanding of his personality traits and history is going to make you write anything entertaining. It'll just be accurate.

[Sutekh]

I don't think there's a whole type of people who shouldn't write a character, but defensive writing for Superman is one of my least favorite things. If a depiction boils down to "nuh uh he's cool see?!" I see it as an uphill battle. There are people who won't like him, but don't worry about that.

Yes. I was most annoyed by 'take that' writing of Aquaman, with on the page references to internet memes about 'talks to fish' or whatever. I do not read about Aquaman to read about how the rest of the world thinks he's 'lame' and needs to be corrected. Screw that. I'm not those people. I'm already reading the darn book! I don't need to be told he's not lame.

I also don't need to be told that Captain America isn't boring old vanilla (a bit naive at times, a bit out of touch on occasion), or the Superman isn't a big blue boy scout (hopeful and idealistic), or whatever. I already like them *because* of those traits. Making Superman brooding or angry or alienated or removed does absolutely nothing for me, because I already have Batman and Wolverine and the Punisher and various other characters to scratch that itch. Not every character needs to service every taste.

Superman (and Captain Marvel, and Wonder Woman, and the best iterations of the Legion of Super-Heroes) are big bright-eyed hopeful idealists, and, IMO, should stay that way. (Wonder Woman is the most schizophenic about this. She's the ambassador of peace to man's world, who will win the fight with love and truth and uses just a lasso as a weapon! No, she's a badass warrior Xena-chick who will totally pragmatically stab a fool who underestimates her and carries a sword! Gah.)

Anyone who doesn't like that can go read about characters that aren't. It's not like comics aren't already giving them plenty of Batverine.

[Agent Z]

Yes. I was most annoyed by 'take that' writing of Aquaman, with on the page references to internet memes about 'talks to fish' or whatever. I do not read about Aquaman to read about how the rest of the world thinks he's 'lame' and needs to be corrected. Screw that. I'm not those people. I'm already reading the darn book! I don't need to be told he's not lame.

I also don't need to be told that Captain America isn't boring old vanilla (a bit naive at times, a bit out of touch on occasion), or the Superman isn't a big blue boy scout (hopeful and idealistic), or whatever. I already like them *because* of those traits. Making Superman brooding or angry or alienated or removed does absolutely nothing for me, because I already have Batman and Wolverine and the Punisher and various other characters to scratch that itch. Not every character needs to service every taste.

Superman (and Captain Marvel, and Wonder Woman, and the best iterations of the Legion of Super-Heroes) are big bright-eyed hopeful idealists, and, IMO, should stay that way. (Wonder Woman is the most schizophenic about this. She's the ambassador of peace to man's world, who will win the fight with love and truth and uses just a lasso as a weapon! No, she's a badass warrior Xena-chick who will totally pragmatically stab a fool who underestimates her and carries a sword! Gah.)

Anyone who doesn't like that can go read about characters that aren't. It's not like comics aren't already giving them plenty of Batverine.

Not that schizophrenic. Most of the time she's killed it's as a last resort and not something she enjoys doing. The excessively violent take is mostly Elseworlds and it was started by Mark Waid who supposedly isn't a cynic. Even those takes on Wonder Woman aren't really like Xena.

[The World]

The character is too optimistic, and idealistic for most modern writers, so we wind up with a bunch of stories about breaking down the tropes of the Superman myth. Batman fits the general world view of most modern writers better, that’s why he has overtaken Superman in recent years.

Superman, and Shazam are “child-like wonder,” characters and increasingly that is something that modern superhero writers find hard to write.

Superman writers just aren't willing to crack down when writers for other characters try and push the Man of Steel around. As long as he continues to behave like a whipped dog he'll continue to flounder. Supergirl, Batman, Green Arrow whoever if they take a shot a Superman then the Superman writers have to be willing to take a shot back maybe two. Somehow, someway modern writers have conflated nice with weak; it is a very American thing where bad attitudes and rude behavior are seen as essential to getting respect. Batman has wildly popularized this mindset and Superman has in his own way played the part of helping by being Bruce's occasional whipping boy with the current Batman/Superman comic being an example of this.

Japanese writers never seem to make this conflation, look at Luffy. Good-natured guy, but no one has ever considered him weak.