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  1. #16
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Oh, please. I admit I dropped off One Piece relatively early, but show me where Luffy pillages port towns, has a child in every port that he'll never be a father to, wantonly murders if it garners him profit and is willing to murder crew for betrayal, dissent or a show of force.

    Luffy is a generic Shonen protagonist, or was for the few years I read him. He's not actually a pirate by any real stretch of the word. Everything Luffy does is about adventure, his friends and he never royally screws people for his own ends unless they really have it coming. He's sanitized as hell. If you download a Lady Gaga song you're probably more of a pirate than Monkey D. Luffy is.

    I have never understood conflating American superhero comics with manga because the former are often the sum of hundreds of different creative visions that coalesce into a singular concept whereas manga generally has one creator that tells the story. They're completely different beasts. The comparisons are pretty weak because one can have a unifying theme that nobody overturns. All Might is absolutely based on Superman to some degree, but given he's going to have exactly one writer for the duration of his narrative, of course he'll have a more focused portrayal that everyone can generally agree upon-- there's only one! The same goes for Batman, Spider-Man and so-on. They will never be apt comparisons because there are significantly more interpretations based on the teams weaving their stories.

    I hate Frank Miller's Batman outside Year One and the first half of DKR, but he's Batman just as much as my beloved Denny O'Neil era Bruce Wayne. Who is your favorite Luffy, Eiichiro Oda's or Eiichiro Oda's?
    Basically, instead of seeing piracy as ‘freedom to attack whoever I want and take their stuff’, Luffy sees it in broader terms, as ‘freedom to ignore whatever boundaries or laws might hinder my ability to do what I want’, and he does take full advantage of that. He’s just not all that interested in attacking people who haven’t done anything to deserve it.

    I can give you, comics and manga comparisons not being fair . But that still doesn't explain why spiderman and batman actually content with their opposition But supes just doesn't as often.
    Last edited by Kuwagaton; 11-12-2019 at 12:31 AM. Reason: Off topic, bad link

  2. #17
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Um, right... well Oda doing Superman would be neat in that as the least cynical guy in comics he would spread casualties like seven years apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Cynics absolutely should write Superman, as should optimists. The more view points we use to chisel away at Clark, the more clearly we can refine him as a character. The devil is in the details. When that chisel becomes a sledgehammer, we have a problem. The point is to flesh him out, not strip him down.
    Superman might be his best mainstream character after Punisher. It's crazy. Azzarello and Rucka had their moments. If those are some of the most cynical it's really not so bad.
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  3. #18
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    I believe that any writer should be allowed to write Superman provided he or she is talented enough (and has an interesting story), regardless of their (perceived) world view or writing style. In my opinion, stifling art/creativity is wrong or saying this person can/can't write Superman because you disagree with their world view is wrong. Suggesting that A-list talents like Hickman (my dream Superman writer), Ellis or even Bendis shouldn't be writing Superman is very concerning.

    The fact is we live in an increasingly cynical world and we cannot go back in time. Superman has lived in and interacted with a more cynical world since at least the Bronze-Age and has coped very well within it. Superman needs to be challenged, and a cynical worldview can be a great challenge for Superman to overcome as it probes his ethics, morality and resolve.

    Being safe, invincible and utterly flawless and living in a safe, invincible and utterly flawless world is tedious and is a major complaints non-fans have about Superman (wrongly), and only commissioning writers to reinforce this would be detrimental to the character going forward. What and who can Superman possibly inspire if he doesn't have any darkness to shine his light toward? How can Superman inspire hope if everybody is living in a contented dreamworld when unpleasant thoughts and feelings do not exist?

    People want more realised, relatable worlds and characters. Eschewing any level of grey morality in favour of a simple good/evil dichotomy fails to work in serialised fiction (with certain exceptions), as it quickly becomes stale.

    Does this mean we should be shoving Superman into cynical stories just to appease a greater audience? No, not at all, Superman should remain true to the basic ideas that have stuck over the 80+ years. Superman himself should not be cynical, of course he shouldn't, but removing cynicism from his world, or rejecting a writer because of a cynical world view, is only going to lead to stagnation, uninteresting stories and ultimately more readers leaving our beloved character behind.

    Superman is good, kind, generous, selfless, honest and true. He is the very antithesis of cynicism, which is the very reason cynicism should be in his books.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  4. #19
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    Um, right... well Oda doing Superman would be neat in that as the least cynical guy in comics he would spread casualties like seven years apart.



    Superman might be his best mainstream character after Punisher. It's crazy. Azzarello and Rucka had their moments. If those are some of the most cynical it's really not so bad.
    Rucka doesn’t feel cynical at all. He likes writing messed up female protagonists but he’s one of the biggest WW fans of all time, so he’s clearly not a cynic at his core.

  5. #20
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    I was going with a definition of cynical as being able to understand and write characters motivated by self interest. Being able to do a jaded take on morality. Not specifically optimistic as his bad guys don't seem implausible and his protagonists aren't really obligated to an objective correctness. I don't mean that he's some "edge" guy. The Punisher is basically my favorite Marvel character and although everyone knows the contributions of Ennis, I think Rucka's take blew the door down. For what that might say about how I see his usual wheelhouse. Complete with a damaged secondary protagonist who happened to be female, lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Suggesting that A-list talents like Hickman (my dream Superman writer), Ellis or even Bendis shouldn't be writing Superman is very concerning.
    At the same time one thing I want to see go away is the "A-list" thing. Not saying anything about you but I have seen hats thrown in the ring and it's been long debunked that a big name will "save" Superman or sustain any sales beyond the norm. I would be powerless to stop them from getting Hickman and would check it out for sure, but I see it come up for his general talent and I don't think there's any metric to indicate that he's more qualified that a less popular writer with comparable experience.
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  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    If your mantra going in is "my source material/IP sucks and I need to fix it," you're probably not going to do a great job.
    I think that just about sums it up for me.

    I pretty strongly disagree with the idea that cynics can't write Superman. There's a streak of cynicism in Superman himself which is often forgotten or swept under the rug by fans and writers who only see the inspirational in him, but this is a character working as a journalist in the big city. He sees the injustices of life on Earth sixteen times before breakfast. His original bread and butter was seeing a social issue like corrupt politicians, immoral labor bosses, social Darwinists, etc. and nailing them to the wall with cartoonish enthusiasm. There's room in that character for a streak of cynicism or pragmatism, and many writers give it to him here and there. It might even just be in as subtle away as giving Clark a tendency toward barbed remarks, and I'm there for that too. If anything, I might be interested in seeing Superman be cynical more often.

    And yet, all that said, to write Superman, you need to like Superman. Nobody who thinks Superman is a broken idea, in need of fixing, should write him. Nobody who thinks that Superman doesn't need a secret identity, or that he and Lois should have constant relationship problems, or that any joy or wonder in the character is only fit to ignore, should write Superman.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  7. #22
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    I believe that any writer should be allowed to write Superman provided he or she is talented enough (and has an interesting story), regardless of their (perceived) world view or writing style. In my opinion, stifling art/creativity is wrong or saying this person can/can't write Superman because you disagree with their world view is wrong. Suggesting that A-list talents like Hickman (my dream Superman writer), Ellis or even Bendis shouldn't be writing Superman is very concerning.
    This.

    First hand experience is not necessary for writing. It helps, but writing outside your own life is what imagination is for. And by this logic, Moore would never have written Superman. As far as I'm concerned that proves the theory false right there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    And yet, all that said, to write Superman, you need to like Superman. Nobody who thinks Superman is a broken idea, in need of fixing, should write him. Nobody who thinks that Superman doesn't need a secret identity, or that he and Lois should have constant relationship problems, or that any joy or wonder in the character is only fit to ignore, should write Superman.
    And also this. Oh my god, if you don't like Superman, don't take the damn job. Hell, half the reason I'm cool with (most of) Lobdell's New52 Supes is just because you could tell the guy's heart was in it. If you love Superman but you miss a lot of the nuance (like Lobdell) I'm still willing to give it a shot; your gonna give it everything you got. But if you don't love the character, no amount of literary analysis or understanding of his personality traits and history is going to make you write anything entertaining. It'll just be accurate.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  8. #23
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    At the same time one thing I want to see go away is the "A-list" thing. Not saying anything about you but I have seen hats thrown in the ring and it's been long debunked that a big name will "save" Superman or sustain any sales beyond the norm. I would be powerless to stop them from getting Hickman and would check it out for sure, but I see it come up for his general talent and I don't think there's any metric to indicate that he's more qualified that a less popular writer with comparable experience.
    I only ever use A-list to describe name recognition, not selling power or talent, just anyone who has worked for a considerable amount of time and has garnered a certain level of faith from the audience (whether I agree or not). Say, a Dan Slott or Brian Bendis instead of a Tony Bedard or Will Pfeifer. This is not to say that the latter are any less talented, but neither have their name as their brand in the way the first two do.

    You're absolutely right that a big name does not equal big sales, Grant Morrison is proof of that. He is beloved by his fan base and seen across the board as one of the greats, but his sales rarely reflect the enormous status of his name. Just throwing a name at Superman is never going to bring consistent sales growth.

    Specifically on Hickman, I cite him only because he is a writer whose work I consistently enjoy and I think he would be a great fit for Superman. To me, Hickman is very much like Greg Rucka (perhaps my favourite comic book writer), and writes a meticulous, well structured and deliberate narrative that always delivers in the end. I like a writer who spins a lot of plates and delves deep into the lore and character of the worlds he is using/building (or even destroying!).

    His sales for FF were good but not stellar but he wrote a superb story, saw his vision through from start to finish, elevated the FF's standing in Marvel (got them up to two books) and made a lot of FF fans very happy. This is what I want for Superman at the end of the day.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  9. #24
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I was going with a definition of cynical as being able to understand and write characters motivated by self interest. Being able to do a jaded take on morality. Not specifically optimistic as his bad guys don't seem implausible and his protagonists aren't really obligated to an objective correctness. I don't mean that he's some "edge" guy. The Punisher is basically my favorite Marvel character and although everyone knows the contributions of Ennis, I think Rucka's take blew the door down. For what that might say about how I see his usual wheelhouse. Complete with a damaged secondary protagonist who happened to be female, lol.



    At the same time one thing I want to see go away is the "A-list" thing. Not saying anything about you but I have seen hats thrown in the ring and it's been long debunked that a big name will "save" Superman or sustain any sales beyond the norm. I would be powerless to stop them from getting Hickman and would check it out for sure, but I see it come up for his general talent and I don't think there's any metric to indicate that he's more qualified that a less popular writer with comparable experience.
    Yeah “saving” Superman would require multiple highly acclaimed runs, some successes in outside media like TV, movies, and video games, and DC tackling the usual criticisms head on and in such a way as to command notice. Seeing as that’s unlikely, I am perfectly happy to get creators on Supes that care about the character and want to build him and his world up rather than tear it down.

    Hickman and Ewing are two creators I want on Superman because both have shown an understanding and appreciation for the Superman archetype over at Marvel with their use of Hyperion and Blue Marvel respectively. Also they’re two writers who love using continuity to build their stories and that’s what Superman needs, not another damn reboot. I want the next writer to build on Bendis even if I don’t love everything he’s done.
    Last edited by Vordan; 11-13-2019 at 09:02 AM.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    And also this. Oh my god, if you don't like Superman, don't take the damn job. Hell, half the reason I'm cool with (most of) Lobdell's New52 Supes is just because you could tell the guy's heart was in it. If you love Superman but you miss a lot of the nuance (like Lobdell) I'm still willing to give it a shot; your gonna give it everything you got. But if you don't love the character, no amount of literary analysis or understanding of his personality traits and history is going to make you write anything entertaining. It'll just be accurate.
    You know, I kinda like Lobdell's Superman stories too. They're not fantastic or anything, but they can be kind of cool, and they're sure not half-assed. I appreciated them.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  11. #26
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Ewing on superman could be bonkers. I hope it happens. I hope when it happens he has some freaking cool story to tell.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I think apathy is a bigger problem than antipathy. I could imagine a really good writer who didn't like Superman but wanted to be a consummate pro doing better than a guy who viewed it as just a paycheck. I know writing and penciling are two different skills, but Rags Morales is a guy I can think of who has been quoted as saying he didn't like Superman that much but did a great job drawing Supes.

    Though from a creator's point of view, maybe nothing would shake you out of apathy than deep love for the subject.

  13. #28
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    You know, I kinda like Lobdell's Superman stories too. They're not fantastic or anything, but they can be kind of cool, and they're sure not half-assed. I appreciated them.
    As far as I'm concerned, Lobdell tried to organically update Clark's career into something vaguely modern and tackle some social issues with it and brought back some crazy, Silver Age type power levels. I'm gonna appreciate his run for those things alone, yknow?

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Ewing on superman could be bonkers. I hope it happens. I hope when it happens he has some freaking cool story to tell.
    Ewing is probably my dream Super-writer (short of getting a really excited Morrison back who has new things to say). I'd take Ewing over Hickman even, I think, if Ewing could bring his A game with him. Dude is legit one of the best, most entertaining writers in the industry when he's into the story. His Loki: Agent of Asgard series is one of the best books of the last ten years and his Mighty Avengers was way, way better than it ever had a right to be.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  14. #29
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Ewing is probably my dream Super-writer (short of getting a really excited Morrison back who has new things to say). I'd take Ewing over Hickman even, I think, if Ewing could bring his A game with him. Dude is legit one of the best, most entertaining writers in the industry when he's into the story. His Loki: Agent of Asgard series is one of the best books of the last ten years and his Mighty Avengers was way, way better than it ever had a right to be.
    Didn't ewing say something about sun god archetype when he was talking about the immortal hulk? He could give a whole new dimension to superman. I mean, clark isn't exactly pure science either. The guy can see souls and stuff. He puts out more energy than the sun.

  15. #30
    OUTRAGEOUS!! Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    I think it is not than a cynic shouldn't be wrote Superman.

    I think is "Superman shouldn't be wrote AS a cynic".

    As every writer lies to say a truth, so a cynic person can be a good writer and wrote a decent tale of Superman.
    "Never assign to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance."

    "Great stories will always return to their original forms"

    "Nobody is more dangerous than he who imagines himself pure in heart; for his purity, by definition, is unassailable." James Baldwin

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