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Thread: The Mandalorian

  1. #1096
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    I think the problem if you start to let Council members outside Yoda and Obi-Wan survive (Mace being the other logical candidate people ask often about) is you have to start explaining why they've let things happen as they have for so long. If they all end up doing the 'hide on a quiet planet' stick it starts to get very cliché.
    Now that you mention it seems like most of the main surviving Jedi ended up being Padawan's. I don't think Ahsoka even made it to Jedi Knight before she left.

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    It's possible one survived and tried to train other force sensitive people. That could make more sense than a bunch of old masters surviving.

  3. #1098
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Now that you mention it seems like most of the main surviving Jedi ended up being Padawan's. I don't think Ahsoka even made it to Jedi Knight before she left.
    She was technically raised to Knight by the Council after being cleared of the temple bombing (with her suspicion and trial taking the place of her Jedi Trials) but she chose to walk away rather than accept. She exists in an odd, but ultimately fortunate thematically, gray area where she both IS and ISN'T a Jedi simultaneously. For what it's worth, she asserts that she is no longer a Jedi in Rebels, though she never really denies it to Din Djarin in the Mandalorian. Does that signal a change in her thinking between the two? Or did it just not come up? We may learn more on her thoughts, and others, during her own show.

    My suspicion is that she won't be considered a Jedi during the OT period, because Luke MUST be the only one or Yoda is a damn liar, but might have a change of heart post-ROTJ once Luke restores the Order. I still think we're owed a story of the first time she hears that name, and what she does once she has. But I'm not sure where/when would be the best place, format or time for that story.

  4. #1099
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    She was technically raised to Knight by the Council after being cleared of the temple bombing (with her suspicion and trial taking the place of her Jedi Trials) but she chose to walk away rather than accept. She exists in an odd, but ultimately fortunate thematically, gray area where she both IS and ISN'T a Jedi simultaneously. For what it's worth, she asserts that she is no longer a Jedi in Rebels, though she never really denies it to Din Djarin in the Mandalorian. Does that signal a change in her thinking between the two? Or did it just not come up? We may learn more on her thoughts, and others, during her own show.

    My suspicion is that she won't be considered a Jedi during the OT period, because Luke MUST be the only one or Yoda is a damn liar, but might have a change of heart post-ROTJ once Luke restores the Order. I still think we're owed a story of the first time she hears that name, and what she does once she has. But I'm not sure where/when would be the best place, format or time for that story.
    I wonder if she was close to being Master-level by the time she fought Vader.

    I think with Ahsoka it's kind of a touchy subject considering her issues with the Order and what they became while, at the same time, she still lives by and holds herself to their principles and training to a certain extent.

    What Yoda said is true from a certain point of view if only in the sense that Luke was the only available Jedi at the time to do what needed to be done, since Ahsoka and Ezra were indisposed and no one knows what Cal was up to by that point.

  5. #1100
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    I honestly don’t give a damn about Yoda’s line in ROTJ, at least not as a hard and fast rule; it got soft balled into a more “for the practical purposes of the saving the Galaxy, not as an absolute denial of other Jedi” back before Disney bought the brand, and as much as Filoni or others may want to pussyfoot around it, no one really cares enough about Ahsoka and possibly Ezra “ruining” it to matter.

    Plus, I really want a similar flexibility applied to the ST era… as it already has with Leia.

    Hell, if it was me, I’d go ahead and give a Grogu a few classmates in Luke’s “Academy” experiment before he creates a temple, then simply have them incapacitated or lost when the ST happens.

    Limiting the Jedi doesn’t mean forbidding the Jedi from still being useful in the wider franchise… or being able to sidestep where the ST screwed up because Rian Johnson didn’t want Luke to train Rey,
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  6. #1101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    What Yoda said is true from a certain point of view if only in the sense that Luke was the only available Jedi at the time to do what needed to be done, since Ahsoka and Ezra were indisposed and no one knows what Cal was up to by that point.
    This is true to an extent. You can't "a certain point of view" Yoda's comment on Luke too far. It's a binary situation. Either Yoda (and Obi-Wan) have created Luke to be a weapon against his own father and the Emperor, and have outright lied to him to do it (in which case the Jedi ARE the Sith, and there is no light or hope in the universe, just cynicism and vengeance) or Luke must be the only true Jedi active in the galaxy at that moment and the fact that he must confront his own father is merely a tragedy of fate. Yoda was clearly monitoring the Force for others, he interacts with Kanan and Ezra for example, so you can't just hand wave the existence of other Jedi. But by the same token, it kind of depends on what you consider a Jedi.

    You can live with Ezra. He was never knighted. Trained isn't the same thing as being a Jedi Knight. Ahsoka gets through on a technicality for the same reason, but Filoni even has her explicitly tell the Rebels cast that she doesn't see herself as a Jedi. And the ST even creates a precedent with Leia, where even being fully trained doesn't necessarily mean you're a Jedi if you step away from the Order for whatever reason. However, this is why Kanan Jarrus had to die before Rebels reached it's conclusion. It's why Cal Kestis has thankfully been set so early in the Imperial period there are avenues to either remove him from the board before ROTJ or to remove him from the Jedi path (Merrin gives them not only an easy narrative out should they choose to take it, but one that is both thematically appropriate and honestly past due for being explored.) The more you pile on here the more problematic the entire thing becomes.

    There's no reason to think you couldn't play by the same rules with the ST period. Luke had so cut himself off, from both the galaxy and the Force, that it would be easy to slip a few trainees around the edges of his statements. Nothing in the narrative is fundamentally dependent on Rey being the lone surviving Jedi. Luke's role in the story isn't even fundamentally about being the last Jedi as much as it is about being a mythic figure with all the power to influence morale and public opinion that comes with being a legend. Sure, Snoke/Palpatine seem to think that killing Luke ends the Jedi forever, but their arrogance makes it easy to take that statement with a grain of salt if necessary.

    Basically, as long as you either weren't Knighted or don't class yourself as a Jedi you aren't one. You can have all the skills, even the lightsaber(s). You can do all the work and serve the precise role in the story. In that gray area, just about anything goes. For example, and going back to Ahsoka with it, should Ahsoka choose to re-identify as a Jedi by the post-ROTJ period (or perhaps to do so as a result of story in her upcoming series) I think that could work well. Similarly, I have absolutely no issues with Ezra completing his training, perhaps even with Ahsoka and becoming a full Knight or even Master. So long as it happens post-ROTJ.
    Last edited by ZeroBG82; 08-28-2021 at 11:20 PM.

  7. #1102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    This is true to an extent. You can't "a certain point of view" Yoda's comment on Luke too far. It's a binary situation. Either Yoda (and Obi-Wan) have created Luke to be a weapon against his own father and the Emperor, and have outright lied to him to do it (in which case the Jedi ARE the Sith, and there is no light or hope in the universe, just cynicism and vengeance) or Luke must be the only true Jedi active in the galaxy at that moment and the fact that he must confront his own father is merely a tragedy of fate. Yoda was clearly monitoring the Force for others, he interacts with Kanan and Ezra for example, so you can't just hand wave the existence of other Jedi. But by the same token, it kind of depends on what you consider a Jedi.

    You can live with Ezra. He was never knighted. Trained isn't the same thing as being a Jedi Knight. Ahsoka gets through on a technicality for the same reason, but Filoni even has her explicitly tell the Rebels cast that she doesn't see herself as a Jedi. And the ST even creates a precedent with Leia, where even being fully trained doesn't necessarily mean you're a Jedi if you step away from the Order for whatever reason. However, this is why Kanan Jarrus had to die before Rebels reached it's conclusion. It's why Cal Kestis has thankfully been set so early in the Imperial period there are avenues to either remove him from the board before ROTJ or to remove him from the Jedi path (Merrin gives them not only an easy narrative out should they choose to take it, but one that is both thematically appropriate and honestly past due for being explored.) The more you pile on here the more problematic the entire thing becomes.

    There's no reason to think you couldn't play by the same rules with the ST period. Luke had so cut himself off, from both the galaxy and the Force, that it would be easy to slip a few trainees around the edges of his statements. Nothing in the narrative is fundamentally dependent on Rey being the lone surviving Jedi. Luke's role in the story isn't even fundamentally about being the last Jedi as much as it is about being a mythic figure with all the power to influence morale and public opinion that comes with being a legend. Sure, Snoke/Palpatine seem to think that killing Luke ends the Jedi forever, but their arrogance makes it easy to take that statement with a grain of salt if necessary.

    Basically, as long as you either weren't Knighted or don't class yourself as a Jedi you aren't one. You can have all the skills, even the lightsaber(s). You can do all the work and serve the precise role in the story. In that gray area, just about anything goes. For example, and going back to Ahsoka with it, should Ahsoka choose to re-identify as a Jedi by the post-ROTJ period (or perhaps to do so as a result of story in her upcoming series) I think that could work well. Similarly, I have absolutely no issues with Ezra completing his training, perhaps even with Ahsoka and becoming a full Knight or even Master. So long as it happens post-ROTJ.
    My understanding of the OT era is that a Jedi can achieve the level or rank of a Knight or Master without needing to be formally knighted because that kind of structure just doesn't really exist anymore and there are barely any Jedi to begin with, so it becomes more about personal development and achievement than that needing to be acknowledged out loud since either there's no Master or council to formally knight them.

    I think it makes enough sense that Luke was the only one who wasn't so far off like Ezra or...doing whatever Ahsoka was doing between Rebels and the OT, because it doesn't seem like she was still helping the Rebellion near as far as we could see and she was kind of done fighting, unless she was already searching for Ezra. So Luke was the only Jedi in that sense.

  8. #1103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    My understanding of the OT era is that a Jedi can achieve the level or rank of a Knight or Master without needing to be formally knighted because that kind of structure just doesn't really exist anymore and there are barely any Jedi to begin with, so it becomes more about personal development and achievement than that needing to be acknowledged out loud since either there's no Master or council to formally knight them.

    I think it makes enough sense that Luke was the only one who wasn't so far off like Ezra or...doing whatever Ahsoka was doing between Rebels and the OT, because it doesn't seem like she was still helping the Rebellion near as far as we could see and she was kind of done fighting, unless she was already searching for Ezra. So Luke was the only Jedi in that sense.
    That's my feeling too, Ezra was out there in wild space(or where ever those space whales took him) and likewise Ahsoka was off the board doing her own thing.

  9. #1104
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    The prequels mention the trials a few times as some kind of Jedi test, but it seems they kind of get hand-waved away for Obi-Wan, Anakin, and in a sense Luke as well for surviving combat with a Sith lord.
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  10. #1105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    The prequels mention the trials a few times as some kind of Jedi test, but it seems they kind of get hand-waved away for Obi-Wan, Anakin, and in a sense Luke as well for surviving combat with a Sith lord.
    Inquisitors probably don't count, I guess.

  11. #1106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    My understanding of the OT era is that a Jedi can achieve the level or rank of a Knight or Master without needing to be formally knighted because that kind of structure just doesn't really exist anymore and there are barely any Jedi to begin with, so it becomes more about personal development and achievement than that needing to be acknowledged out loud since either there's no Master or council to formally knight them.

    I think it makes enough sense that Luke was the only one who wasn't so far off like Ezra or...doing whatever Ahsoka was doing between Rebels and the OT, because it doesn't seem like she was still helping the Rebellion near as far as we could see and she was kind of done fighting, unless she was already searching for Ezra. So Luke was the only Jedi in that sense.
    I forget but doesn't Obi Wan become a Master between movies 1 and 2? He doesn't seem the type to self appoint himself the title.

    If we can accept that Obi Wan and Yoda were the only Jedi masters left alive, I can see how Yoda would consider Luke ( who completed his training) a true Jedi. Ezra's and Kanan wouldn't count to him, even if he knew they existed.

    Ashoka quit. Technically she isn't a Jedi either.

    Yoda might not be a liar as much as he is an elitist.

  12. #1107
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Yoda communicates with both Ezra, Kanan and Ashoka in REBELS, although that's mainly due to the Temple I think. (When the temple collapses-a nod of sorts to THE LAST CRUSADE-he doesn't reappear I think).



    It's kind of funny how Yoda is basically begging Luke to complete the training in ESB and in ROTJ he also pretty much just says that Luke has it figured out anyway ("Already know you, that what you need").

    Although I suppose this can be seen as partially Yoda trying to stop Luke from learning about Vader's true identity and having that burden as he seems to say later.


    I think in the old canon you technically had to train 3 Padawans to knighthood to get a Master rank-Qui-Gon had already trained a few before Obi-Wan, although one went to the dark side.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 08-31-2021 at 01:45 PM.
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