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Thread: The Mandalorian

  1. #1156
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Omid is no longer on Fear The Walking Dead, so he definetly has time for more Pershing.
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  2. #1157
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    There was another clip shown today, featuring a Star Destroyer, some starfighter battle that Din’s involved with, and a potentially connected star base with what looked like a Walker on it, and both teasers featured Bo-Katan-affiliated Mandos shooting someone or something in some kind of ground combat.

    *If* the idea is to eventually crossover with Thrawn as the antagonist, uncovering him as the force behind Gideon in The Mandalorian and teasing his full strength would be a good move.
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  3. #1158
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    There was another clip shown today, featuring a Star Destroyer, some starfighter battle that Din’s involved with, and a potentially connected star base with what looked like a Walker on it, and both teasers featured Bo-Katan-affiliated Mandos shooting someone or something in some kind of ground combat.

    *If* the idea is to eventually crossover with Thrawn as the antagonist, uncovering him as the force behind Gideon in The Mandalorian and teasing his full strength would be a good move.
    I kind of hope that isn't the case, the novels have been painting a heroic picture of Thrawn and I'd like to see that continue.I could definitely be wrong, but my feeling is that he will be thought to be the villain in Ahsoka only for it to turn out that he has been working with Ezra to keep the Grysk at bay.
    Last edited by thwhtGuardian; 05-28-2022 at 04:21 PM.
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  4. #1159
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I kind of hope that isn't the case, the novels have been painting a heroic picture of Thrawn and I'd like to see that continue.I could definitely be wrong, but my feeling is that he will be thought to be the villain in Ahsoka only for it to turn out that he has been working with Ezra to keep the Grysk at bay.
    That would be my assumption as well. Unless they want to completely ignore the Zahn novels just so they can get a villainous Thrawn, all Thrawn should care about at this point is finding a way to help the Chiss.

  5. #1160
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I won't be surprised if they play Thrawn up as the multi-season big bad of all the post-RotJ shows. He's a fan favorite, he's capable, and he could build a bridge between these minor Imperial remnants in the Mando era and the First Order from the sequels.

    Because we all know the sequels are not gonna be retconned or rebooted away. That's the finale of the Skywalker saga, we just gotta live with it and hopefully Lucasfilm will find a way to make it all work after the fact, like they did with the prequels.

    If there are novels that paint Thrawn in a different light (I only read the original Thrawn trilogy) then maybe Fav and Filoni will stick with that, I don't know how much import they put on that sorta thing. But it seems to me that Thrawn is probably one of the most popular villains in the franchise after Palpatine and Vader and that's a real valuable resource to burn just so he can be a good guy.

    Perhaps they'll just play him in that nebulous, morally gray zone where you're never quite sure just how solidly he's on your side?
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  6. #1161
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    The thing with Thrawn is he was created to be a villain, and while he’s frequently positioned as the “lesser of two evils” in Zahn’s novels… he’s also still someone who mostly loyally serves the Empire and Palpatine specifically when the Grysk kind of can’t end up being on par with that level of senseless evil… and the First Order ends up in in the Chiss’s own backyard with nary a sign of the Chiss anywhere…

    Perosnally, I’d like it if Thrawn goes full antagonist in this show because of his skewed priorities, gets defeated, and then we find out that survivors of his faction of the Empire end up joining with the First Order in brutally enslaving and murdering the Ascendancy, to illustrate that Thrawn’s moral relativism was an intellectually flawed as it was ethically.
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  7. #1162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    If there are novels that paint Thrawn in a different light (I only read the original Thrawn trilogy) then maybe Fav and Filoni will stick with that, I don't know how much import they put on that sorta thing. But it seems to me that Thrawn is probably one of the most popular villains in the franchise after Palpatine and Vader and that's a real valuable resource to burn just so he can be a good guy.
    It's not that they portray him in a different light. He's very much the same character. It's a "certain point of view" thing.

    In his novels, half of which are set before he comes to the Empire and half during his career pre-Rebels, he's just being looked at by people who align with is worldview better. Before he leaves the Chiss Ascendency, he's utterly devoted to his people and everything he does is on their behalf. Even if it's weird or taboo to them, to us the audience we see the import he gives his people and it is intensely admirable. Later, once he's in service to the Emperor we see all the things about him that would make him heroic in other contexts. His loyalty, creativity, ability to adapt. But we see them deployed in service to an evil regime and feel the sting of what could be a good man doing great things to aid evil men. He's not popular in the Empire, outside of the Emperor who sees his value, but those who serve under him come to respect and like him and we can relate to that even while his alignment still bothers us.

    My guess is he'll be played, much as he was during Rebels, as a noble and honorable foe, but an antagonist all the same. He's the best of the Empire, not just because of his big brain, but because he somehow manages to share so few of the excesses that mark it's worst features. We WANT him to switch sides, to see the error of his ways and join the Rebels or the heroes. But he's not going to. Because he values the order of the Empire and because he believes it is the key to saving the Ascendency, which is his ultimate goal. I can see them doing something where his goals and the heroes' align for a time, but at the end of the day if it doesn't help the Chiss he'll forget to care that you exist at the drop of a hat.

    It's why he's such a great character, who works so well, under Zahn's pen. He's not just challenging for the heroes to defeat, he's challenging for the audience to hate. You do so reluctantly, because he's on the other side and because he'll crush the heroes if they give him a chance. But you see the things about him that make him different from other Imperials at the same time.

  8. #1163
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    Really I think it depends on his current status where Ezra and Thrawn are and whether Thrawn sees any value in still using the Empire for the Chiss with the Imperial Remnants in such disaray. I could honestly see Thrawn leading remnants of the Empire from his fleet back to work for the Ascendancy than care for any attempt to reform the Empire or form something like the First Order.

    The former I can at least see Ezra going along with.

  9. #1164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Really I think it depends on his current status where Ezra and Thrawn are and whether Thrawn sees any value in still using the Empire for the Chiss with the Imperial Remnants in such disaray. I could honestly see Thrawn leading remnants of the Empire from his fleet back to work for the Ascendancy than care for any attempt to reform the Empire or form something like the First Order.

    The former I can at least see Ezra going along with.
    I definitely agree it's going to depend. I've been head-canon-ing the idea that Thrawn basically ensures that the First Order gets built in between the Ascendency and the Grysk. Basically making them a psychotically fascist buffer state between his people and the real threat, to body block the coming danger. In which case I could totally see Thrawn being almost fanatically devoted to the FO.'

    On the other hand, it might be fun to completely subvert expectations and have Ezra and Thrawn already working together in some capacity by this point to achieve some common aim.

    A lot is going to rest on how they want to build the danger, and what exactly Thrawn ends up being up to out in the wilds.

    It's actually kind of fun to speculate on, because they could really go in almost any direction they want and it would make sense if they build the set up correctly. Which means we're probably going to be guessing right up until they hit us over the head with it.

  10. #1165
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    I definitely see the Grysk as something they're setting up as a major villain, so Thrawn as the bad guy wouldn't really help that but Thrawn as an unexpected ally would.
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  11. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    I definitely see the Grysk as something they're setting up as a major villain, so Thrawn as the bad guy wouldn't really help that but Thrawn as an unexpected ally would.
    I don’t really agree; I think the Grysk are more a plot tool for allowing Thrawn’s paranoia and nationalism to believably fuel his amoral pragmatism. Thus far, they've only really been present in Zahn’s novels and explicitly serving that role, while Thrawn was strictly an antagonist in Rebels and continuing his support of the species-enslaving, planet-murdering, Evil-Space-Wizard-led Empire in both stories.

    I know some people expect the, to be a Yuuzahn Vong parallel, but even if that’s the case, they can’t do anything on that scale until after the ST period, so anything they could get up to here will cause less damage than what Thrawn’s colleagues will before and after The Mandalorian’s setting…

    …And I don’t really think modern LFL wants to do anything movie- or Disney+-scale with a Yuuzahn Vong-style concept.

    I want fans of the “Thrawn’s actually an anti-hero” interpretation to end up finding out they’re wrong - because that’s kind of what Star Wars needs more of. The *heroes* can go grey in morality, like with Cassian. But if you back the Empire or the Sith, you’re at best a foolish accomplice to your own destruction.

    I’m far more interested in Thrawn being the villain he is than in trying to reverse that for Imperial fanboys who can’t be satisfied with that faction being baddies. And to be honest, it’s transfiguring him into an anti-hero that kind fi turned me cold on the book series - I want to read a book with a villain protagonist when it’s Thrawn, because that”s what he is.

    Though if he did show up, and was fighting against the Imperial forces in the Unknown Regions, I could dog with that - provided he had a Mayfeld-like moment of realizing he was wrong, but even more so, being horrified by it because he was a more active participant as a high ranking officer.
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  12. #1167
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I don’t really agree; I think the Grysk are more a plot tool for allowing Thrawn’s paranoia and nationalism to believably fuel his amoral pragmatism. Thus far, they've only really been present in Zahn’s novels and explicitly serving that role, while Thrawn was strictly an antagonist in Rebels and continuing his support of the species-enslaving, planet-murdering, Evil-Space-Wizard-led Empire in both stories.

    I know some people expect the, to be a Yuuzahn Vong parallel, but even if that’s the case, they can’t do anything on that scale until after the ST period, so anything they could get up to here will cause less damage than what Thrawn’s colleagues will before and after The Mandalorian’s setting…

    …And I don’t really think modern LFL wants to do anything movie- or Disney+-scale with a Yuuzahn Vong-style concept.

    I want fans of the “Thrawn’s actually an anti-hero” interpretation to end up finding out they’re wrong - because that’s kind of what Star Wars needs more of. The *heroes* can go grey in morality, like with Cassian. But if you back the Empire or the Sith, you’re at best a foolish accomplice to your own destruction.

    I’m far more interested in Thrawn being the villain he is than in trying to reverse that for Imperial fanboys who can’t be satisfied with that faction being baddies. And to be honest, it’s transfiguring him into an anti-hero that kind fi turned me cold on the book series - I want to read a book with a villain protagonist when it’s Thrawn, because that”s what he is.

    Though if he did show up, and was fighting against the Imperial forces in the Unknown Regions, I could dog with that - provided he had a Mayfeld-like moment of realizing he was wrong, but even more so, being horrified by it because he was a more active participant as a high ranking officer.
    I dunno, Thrawn is generally pretty reasonable, practical, and mission-oriented and he's only really worried about stuff that's genuinely something to be worried about even if no one else takes it as seriously as I do. It's why he was as unpopular in the Ascendancy as he was despite how capable he is.

    Like, I think Thrawn was definitely an antagonist in the context of Rebels but he was always with the Empire for his own reasons and not out of any kind of nationalist loyalties and he certainly wasn't 100% loyal to them as his novels indicate. If those reasons to serve the Empire don't exist any more, I can imagine him pretty easily shifting to whatever benefits the Chiss next.

  13. #1168
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Whatever Gideon's after seems to be more connected to force-sensitive genetic engineering/clones than anything else we've seen I think. Which fits more with Palpatine's stuff in Rise of Skywalker more than Thrawn's storyline (Thrawn used clones in the original novels, but they were mostly Stormtrooper clones).
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  14. #1169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I dunno, Thrawn is generally pretty reasonable, practical, and mission-oriented and he's only really worried about stuff that's genuinely something to be worried about even if no one else takes it as seriously as I do. It's why he was as unpopular in the Ascendancy as he was despite how capable he is.

    Like, I think Thrawn was definitely an antagonist in the context of Rebels but he was always with the Empire for his own reasons and not out of any kind of nationalist loyalties and he certainly wasn't 100% loyal to them as his novels indicate. If those reasons to serve the Empire don't exist any more, I can imagine him pretty easily shifting to whatever benefits the Chiss next.
    The problem is there’s nothing reasonable, practical, or even all the mission oriented about the Empire, and in fact that’s baked into the system, with Thrawn being a willful participant in its evil - the novels are written from his perspective, but he’s still a slavery and genocide supporting fascist. I still think that, ultimately, the reasonable, practical anti-hero depiction is entirely a creation of the novels, coming from a skewed perspective. Unlike some of his critics, I don’t actually think Timothy Zahn is worshipping fascism and militarism when writing Thrawn - I just think he knows how much you have to soften the character’s perspective and trick the audience into cheering for someone who is, objectively, still a bad person.

    And we can already see something of how he’s operating now in The Mandalorian - employing Morgan Elsbeth to deforest entire planets with viciously brutal methods including many of the same war crimes that he’s pointing to for the Grysk’s threat level. And if he really wanted to prepare the Galaxy or the Chiss for the Grysk… laying with the New Republic would be better than hiding out.

    The dude is a fascist villain. We need to stop pretending that’s not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    Whatever Gideon's after seems to be more connected to force-sensitive genetic engineering/clones than anything else we've seen I think. Which fits more with Palpatine's stuff in Rise of Skywalker more than Thrawn's storyline (Thrawn used clones in the original novels, but they were mostly Stormtrooper clones).
    See, I see where that comes in, but I’ve been under the impression that Clonepatine is already enthroned on Exegol, and I tend to think Palpatine should already have all the resources he needs safe and secured for any further experimentation if we’re really relying on him being a chessmaster for the ST… and I really want Thrawn to end up as an independent Big Bad during this timeline so the stench of the ST doesn’t waft over onto Din and co.

    Thrawn having Gideon experiment on the Force through science feels just as much his sort of thing to me as it would for Palpatine - the difference would be that Palpatine understands it on a sorcerous level, while Thrawn would be trying to define it in a wholly scientific manner. Stuff like just trying to pump midichlorians into someone to generate the Force also feels like the kind of thing Palpatine would already know doesn’t work, and that’s the kind of stuff Pershing is doing.

    Better to have it turn out Thrawn is a de facto rival to Palpatine’s forces during this time period, employing guys like Gideon (who’s manipulation of Mandlaorian culture fits perfectly with Thrawn’s MO) and Elsbeth, and still very much wanting a fascist government in charge of the Galaxy out of his fascist ideals, who can then be a Big Bad thoroughly vanquished by the heroes here.
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  15. #1170
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    The problem is there’s nothing reasonable, practical, or even all the mission oriented about the Empire, and in fact that’s baked into the system, with Thrawn being a willful participant in its evil - the novels are written from his perspective, but he’s still a slavery and genocide supporting fascist. I still think that, ultimately, the reasonable, practical anti-hero depiction is entirely a creation of the novels, coming from a skewed perspective. Unlike some of his critics, I don’t actually think Timothy Zahn is worshipping fascism and militarism when writing Thrawn - I just think he knows how much you have to soften the character’s perspective and trick the audience into cheering for someone who is, objectively, still a bad person.

    And we can already see something of how he’s operating now in The Mandalorian - employing Morgan Elsbeth to deforest entire planets with viciously brutal methods including many of the same war crimes that he’s pointing to for the Grysk’s threat level. And if he really wanted to prepare the Galaxy or the Chiss for the Grysk… laying with the New Republic would be better than hiding out.

    The dude is a fascist villain. We need to stop pretending that’s not the case.
    I don't think Thrawn was oblivious to the fascist nature of the Empire and I don't think Zahn ever wrote him as supporting it (and the Ascendancy weren't fascist from what I remember either) beyond fulfilling his obligation to the Empire, but he saw it as a means to an end for aiding the Chiss. Which is why he sent people he felt had the potential to help the Ascendancy to the Ascendancy rather than keep them employed by the Empire.

    I even had a hard time seeing him using Elsbeth like that beyond maybe keeping in contact with her.

    Heck, compared to his fellow Chiss, Thrawn seemed like the least militaristic of them.

    I think the thing with Thrawn is it's all about perspective. Of course he's going to come off differently when he's an antagonist who is hunting the protagonists like a consummate professional versus a story from his perspective that dives into why he's really doing the things he does.

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