The Mandalorian

[Ascended]

I'd imagine you're right. I don't think the Order had the resources to legitimately hold the galaxy, they probably had their hands full just keeping trade routes contained, maybe keeping a presence over certain noteworthy planets. I mean, they were held on the fringes of the outer rim and a small group of resistance fighters were enough to keep them there (until the Order fired up starkiller base). There's no way they had enough ships to maintain a presence across the galaxy.

[godisawesome]

I'd imagine you're right. I don't think the Order had the resources to legitimately hold the galaxy, they probably had their hands full just keeping trade routes contained, maybe keeping a presence over certain noteworthy planets. I mean, they were held on the fringes of the outer rim and a small group of resistance fighters were enough to keep them there (until the Order fired up starkiller base). There's no way they had enough ships to maintain a presence across the galaxy.

It's an interesting question to explore because we totally saw LFL change their minds about this in huge, setting-altering ways.

The FO in TFA is implied to be a smaller, lean, hungry enterprise of mostly professional and competent extremist, reliant on SKB as their ace card, cautious of outright engaging the “precious fleet” of the Republic, and genuinely seriously inconvenienced by the smaller Resistance outfit.

…Then TLJ massively scales up both organizations - the FO can now field an ROTJ-sized fleet to just chase a Resistance that now has a decent fleet of its own, and the FO can even lose about half of theirs in the chase without it being depicted as a crippling blow - but also makes the FO a collection of clowns and jokers so incompetent that an also idiotic Resistance can still almost outfox them… and apparently their still supposed to effectively conquer the Galaxy so soon that we’re resetting the board straight back to the OT’s situation even faster than Abrams was doing so (which is saying something!)

…Then TROS scales things back again so that the FO is short handed enough that even their issues with the Sith Eternal Fleet are quickly resolved in favor of joining them because they need that to take over the Galaxy, while Hux is replaced as damaged goods by Pryde (who’s characterization is… just like TFA!Hux, but older, much like Captain Cannady was in TLJ), and so that defeating the Sith Eternal Fleet and its FO supporters effectively ends the war.

[Ascended]

It's an interesting question to explore because we totally saw LFL change their minds about this in huge, setting-altering ways.

Right. Even the Republic's actions at the start of TFA seem odd. Leia's small Resistance group is keeping the pressure on the Imperials, with just enough manpower and resources to keep the Imps in a slow, continual withdrawal, losing a war of attrition. The rest of the fleet is all around the core worlds. I understand needing to keep a defensive perimeter, but the *whole* Republic fleet? When Leia's small strike force is enough to keep the Order contained? Seems like overkill. Were pirates and smugglers not a concern? Was there nothing else in the whole galaxy that fleet should have been doing?

I actually think a lot of all this can be justified if there's a third (or more) faction in the mix, causing problems off-screen.

If this third group isn't friendly with the Republic, and the Republic has reason to fear an attack, then the presence of the whole fleet around the core worlds makes sense. They don't even have to be in open conflict with this third faction, just on tense enough terms that an attack seems possible.

Likewise, the Order may have been forced to split their forces between fighting Leia's Resistance and the third group. So when TLJ ramps up the Order's numbers we can assume they're just reallocating resources from one battlefield to another. Any ramp-up on the Resistance side could simply be remaining Republic forces making their way to the outer rim and Leia, or it could be some people who had been fighting the Order with that third faction, uniting against a common enemy who suddenly seems to have the upper hand.

By the time we hit tRoS, the Order has spread itself thin trying to control as much territory as possible, while still fighting the remaining Resistance. Odds are those two problems alone would justify them accepting the Sith Eternal fleet so easily, but if that third faction is still kicking around it gives them even more reason to want the Sith ships.

Hypothetical third faction could be damn near anything; the Chiss or Yuuzhan Vong, an independent alliance of neutral systems in the outer rim tired of both Imperial and Republic bullshit, some other thing from Legends or a whole new threat, whatever. And whatever the faction is, it explains why Mandalore wasn't mentioned in the Resistance-focused sequels despite (presumably) having reestablished themselves. Whether Mandalore is part of that third faction or fighting against them, either way it'd explain their absence.

[thwhtGuardian]

Right. Even the Republic's actions at the start of TFA seem odd. Leia's small Resistance group is keeping the pressure on the Imperials, with just enough manpower and resources to keep the Imps in a slow, continual withdrawal, losing a war of attrition. The rest of the fleet is all around the core worlds. I understand needing to keep a defensive perimeter, but the *whole* Republic fleet? When Leia's small strike force is enough to keep the Order contained? Seems like overkill. Were pirates and smugglers not a concern? Was there nothing else in the whole galaxy that fleet should have been doing?

I actually think a lot of all this can be justified if there's a third (or more) faction in the mix, causing problems off-screen.

If this third group isn't friendly with the Republic, and the Republic has reason to fear an attack, then the presence of the whole fleet around the core worlds makes sense. They don't even have to be in open conflict with this third faction, just on tense enough terms that an attack seems possible.

Likewise, the Order may have been forced to split their forces between fighting Leia's Resistance and the third group. So when TLJ ramps up the Order's numbers we can assume they're just reallocating resources from one battlefield to another. Any ramp-up on the Resistance side could simply be remaining Republic forces making their way to the outer rim and Leia, or it could be some people who had been fighting the Order with that third faction, uniting against a common enemy who suddenly seems to have the upper hand.

By the time we hit tRoS, the Order has spread itself thin trying to control as much territory as possible, while still fighting the remaining Resistance. Odds are those two problems alone would justify them accepting the Sith Eternal fleet so easily, but if that third faction is still kicking around it gives them even more reason to want the Sith ships.

Hypothetical third faction could be damn near anything; the Chiss or Yuuzhan Vong, an independent alliance of neutral systems in the outer rim tired of both Imperial and Republic bullshit, some other thing from Legends or a whole new threat, whatever. And whatever the faction is, it explains why Mandalore wasn't mentioned in the Resistance-focused sequels despite (presumably) having reestablished themselves. Whether Mandalore is part of that third faction or fighting against them, either way it'd explain their absence.

Eh, why waste time time trying to come up with a complex explanation when, "it was bad writing" is probably the real reason?

[Ascended]

Eh, why waste time time trying to come up with a complex explanation when, "it was bad writing" is probably the real reason?

Because coming up with complex explanations to work around bad writing is how we got half of the content we have in this franchise. What do you think the Clone Wars cartoon was? Fake Wedge just became a legitimate and interesting character apparently, too.

It's a longstanding tradition that goes back to the old days, when all we had were the originals.

[thwhtGuardian]

Because coming up with complex explanations to work around bad writing is how we got half of the content we have in this franchise. What do you think the Clone Wars cartoon was? Fake Wedge just became a legitimate and interesting character apparently, too.

It's a longstanding tradition that goes back to the old days, when all we had were the originals.

Eh, the Clone Wars Cartoon was just good writing and fun stories no real complex hand waves there.

[Immortal Weapon]

Eh, the Clone Wars Cartoon was just good writing and fun stories no real complex hand waves there.

It did have them though. I'm sure getting the highly emotional story of Ahsoka being expelled from the order was done to explain her absence from Revenge of the Sith. Anakin disproval of said decision likely led to why the council didn't make him a master. The final arc of season 6 was Yoda's training to become a force ghost which he alluded to in RotS ending.

[Ascended]

And the show itself was an attempt to repair and fix all the bad writing and characterization from the prequels. Every single episode was, ultimately, a handwave attempt to rectify the prequel's poor execution.

This is how Star Wars functions. They'll tell a bad story, or tell a good story badly, and then another project has to step up, fill in the blanks, add context, and/or quietly course-correct the narrative/characters.

In this case, the sequels were made before The Mandalorian was a thing so there's no way anyone would have anticipated Mandalore being a power again. That's the real reason why we don't hear anything about them in the sequels, but now it's a question: Did Mandalore fall again so quickly? Were they just busy somewhere else? We'll find out how Mandalore fit into the sequel era in good time, but until then it's fun to try and connect the dots.

And saying there was another conflict/faction somewhere during the sequels is not a "complex explanation" in my mind. It's actually pretty straightforward and simple, I think. It only seems convoluted because it has to slide in and work around the inconsistencies of the sequel's narrative.

[godisawesome]

Eh, the Clone Wars Cartoon was just good writing and fun stories no real complex hand waves there.

It did have them though. I'm sure getting the highly emotional story of Ahsoka being expelled from the order was done to explain her absence from Revenge of the Sith. Anakin disproval of said decision likely led to why the council didn't make him a master. The final arc of season 6 was Yoda's training to become a force ghost which he alluded to in RotS ending.

The initial TCW plan apparently involved having Ahsoka in the Temple during ROTS as the finale, before Filoni apparently convinced Lucas to let him do something different.

And I’d argue the entire TCW Mandalorian arc was likely born out of Lucas and Filoni deciding that the “Jango Fett was the clone army template” idea was a decent but ultimately insufficient adaptation of the old fluff that the Mandalorians had been major participants in the Clone Wars - as well as an also maybe justified opinion that the Legends take on the concept was also rather “meh” and uninspiring (it didn’t help that Karen Traviss was herself unimpressed and dismissive of the Abel G. Peña implementation of the idea that she largely ignored.)

…Which brings me back to some stuff I might want to see Season 4 of The Mandalorian do to help Season 3 feel less like waste of time for Din or the Mandalorian cultures. They could:

- Din encounters a New Mandalorian, Fenn Rau, or Sabine Wren, and gets an education on the political history of all his people.
- Have Din end ups with a mission that involves uncovering the Death Watch’s history, and possibly an unsavory side to his own origin.
- Have an episode about rebuilding and reforging the Darksaber into Din-then-Grogu’s weapon, with Din learning to use it like Sabine did in Trials of the Darksaber.
- Have Din encounter an enemy who’s a “good Mandalorian” but a bad person, because a “good Mandalorian” is simply a strong warrior.

Stuff like that which really should have been a part of Season 3.

[Jackalope89]

Will the Dins have any kind of role in the Ahsoka show? Just curious. They do owe her, and even then, all she would need to do is mention having to face Imperial Remnants to have those two be first in line to join her. This would also bring him into contact with Sabine Wren, which would make for an interesting meeting.

- Have Din encounter an enemy who’s a “good Mandalorian” but a bad person, because a “good Mandalorian” is simply a strong warrior.

Not necessarily. Look at Din. He's a good warrior, and while a bounty hunter, he always give his targets a chance to come quietly. And it feels like, aside from not revealing the face thing, there are a number of other codes that the Children have lived by as well.

[Frontier]

Will the Dins have any kind of role in the Ahsoka show? Just curious. They do owe her, and even then, all she would need to do is mention having to face Imperial Remnants to have those two be first in line to join her. This would also bring him into contact with Sabine Wren, which would make for an interesting meeting.


Not necessarily. Look at Din. He's a good warrior, and while a bounty hunter, he always give his targets a chance to come quietly. And it feels like, aside from not revealing the face thing, there are a number of other codes that the Children have lived by as well.

I guess Din could make a guest appearance.

[Jackalope89]

I guess Din could make a guest appearance.

...Well, there goes my hope for it.

[Immortal Weapon]

I guess Din could make a guest appearance.

If he can takeover Boba Fett's show than it's not too much to ask he do the same with Ahsoka.

[ChrisIII]

I think it's possible the Mandalorian finale kind of scaled back the sequel connection; revealing that Gideon's clones were probably just his pet project and not related to what Palpatine was up to on Exegol.

Even Bad Batch might be doing it's own thing with it's own clone subplot.

[godisawesome]

Will the Dins have any kind of role in the Ahsoka show? Just curious. They do owe her, and even then, all she would need to do is mention having to face Imperial Remnants to have those two be first in line to join her. This would also bring him into contact with Sabine Wren, which would make for an interesting meeting.

I would still kill to have Din meet Sabine… but I feel such a meeting needs more character work and analysis of Mandalorian history (and possibly a repeat Darksaber) than anything in the drearily uncritical and shallow Season 3 of The Mandalorian to really make that meeting mean something if it happens.

Sabine is now the “best” Mandalorian because, like Din, she’s a more actively moral personality than the other major Mandos we’ve met (more on that in a bit), but also because, unlike Din, she’s had a morally complex and challenging conflict with Mandalorian culture and politics - which Din was refused by TM Season 3 and which has seriously handicapped him going forward by making him more bland and purposeless outside of “be a cool Mando.”

Maybe we’ll be lucky, and Filoni called “dibs” on actually having Din get educated on tough questions and facts that Star Wars kind for needs to give the Mandos to make them more interesting than this season left them.

Now on that other stuff to further my point:

Not necessarily. Look at Din. He's a good warrior, and while a bounty hunter, he always give his targets a chance to come quietly. And it feels like, aside from not revealing the face thing, there are a number of other codes that the Children have lived by as well.

See, here’s several issues I have with that, though not with you, but the way this Season 3 tried to play things:

- Din is not representative of all Mandos, and is already much more heroic than other Mandos, both before this season’s obfuscation and “dumbing down” of the story, and even afterwards; he’s the only Mando we’ve heard endorse the New Republic or ever care about non Mandos, while both the main Mando factions this season had to be either brought in line with the simple, inward focused goal of retaking their home (the Nite Owls) or convinced of a quid pro quo to intervene on behalf of someone else (the Children of the Watch.)

And frankly, Din and other heroic Mandos are better off when their morality is clarified as unique to them.

- Even given this Season 3 conceit that our Mandalorian faction this season were purely heroic (and it is a conceit - a minor “fib” or obfuscation made for convenience or laziness), they were still prostrated as myopically insular and apathetic about the larger Galaxy. This is the only real consistent thing from previous seasons and the cartoons that the Mandos got this season - they care about their actions and attitudes only in relation to each other when you get down to it. Their honor codes and creeds are only really relevant in how they interact with each other, which in this season was used to make them seem more overtly heroic and virtuous, but never actually strayed into them being selfless or compassionate towards those outside the warrior cults brought together here,

- On a more subjective but, in my option, very important note… the fact that 2/3rds of the Mando factions we saw this season were Death Watch descendants should have been used and now should be used as a source of conflict and drama… or else the Mandos are just dudes in armor, and nothing more, or the show is endorsing Death Watch’s murders and treachery in the Clone Wars because they don’t want to deal with difficult questions.

I mean… by the standards of Death Watch, Pre Vizsla and Gar Saxon were honorable warriors, which played into how we got Mando VS Mando fights, which this Seaosn 3 could have desperately used, and which is the best way to watch Mandos fight.