The Mandalorian

[BeastieRunner]

RE: The Mandalorian's Baby Yoda Further Exposes Fandom's 'Mary Sue' Hypocrisy

I don't see how it's hypocrisy, insofar as we've never seen a "Baby Yoda" before and it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the species is more naturally adept at Force manipulation than humanoids who, as we all know, require training in the use of the Force.

Luke did the same crazy stuff Rey and the Child did with little to no training.

Maybe it's how the Force works perchance?

[abulafia]

Luke did the same crazy stuff Rey and the Child did with little to no training.

Maybe it's how the Force works perchance?

wuuuuuuuuut???

his one in a million miiight have been skill paired with confidence!
next force stunt we seem him perform is him gathering all of his strength to avoid certain death by being eaten by a savage ice monster.

do you know star wars at all?

thing is, from a stupid marketing point of view, they have been amping of force powers over the years. just look at the force unleashed(sigh) games.
while i admit that the early movies were limited by their days special effect, you can´t just amp up new characters to the max cause it makes established characters look like losers.
there has to be a believable transition.

as a jedi freshman luke just did some jumps, failing with his 2nd attempt of a force mind trick.

as a full jedi, he has to focus hard to just let c3po float around a little. compare that to baby yoda lifting a savage beast or rey doing ... ahh ... everything she does.
as for size doesn´t matter, in my reading there is still a different from lifting a clueless droid or dead matter rocks/x-wing than a 2 tons enraged beast. since the force interacts with all living, remember? so the beast is not just dead matter but a wild soul fighting for its brood.
rey and baby yoda ofc would have just nailed the wampa to the caves wall. lightsabers, jedi toys ... who needs em?
ridiculous

[TriggerWarning]

wuuuuuuuuut???

his one in a million miiight have been skill paired with confidence!
next force stunt we seem him perform is him gathering all of his strength to avoid certain death by being eaten by a savage ice monster.

do you know star wars at all?

thing is, from a stupid marketing point of view, they have been amping of force powers over the years. just look at the force unleashed(sigh) games.
while i admit that the early movies were limited by their days special effect, you can´t just amp up new characters to the max cause it makes established characters look like losers.
there has to be a believable transition.

as a jedi freshman luke just did some jumps, failing with his 2nd attempt of a force mind trick.

as a full jedi, he has to focus hard to just let c3po float around a little. compare that to baby yoda lifting a savage beast or rey doing ... ahh ... everything she does.
as for size doesn´t matter, in my reading there is still a different from lifting a clueless droid or dead matter rocks/x-wing than a 2 tons enraged beast. since the force interacts with all living, remember? so the beast is not just dead matter but a wild soul fighting for its brood.
rey and baby yoda ofc would have just nailed the wampa to the caves wall. lightsabers, jedi toys ... who needs em?
ridiculous

Luke with 2 minutes of training with Ben manages to outfly Vader longer than any other Rebel pilot even to the point that Vader gets frustrated. Vader was allegedly the best pilot in the galaxy and a Sith Lord yet he had to struggle to beat a force sensitive, he had no training so he can't even be considered a force user or Padawan.

Luke then only had 1-2 days of training with Yoda and thats being generous as you have to line his training up with the Bespin storyline and still get Luke there in time to see Boba Fett leaving. He then actually is beating Vader in a lightsaber battle, despite no training in lightsaber fighting, until Vader makes him realize he's giving in to the dark side at which point Luke runs away.

Luke then trains with no one and somehow becomes skilled enough to be a full Jedi.

He is the original Star Wars Mary Sue.

Plus I have a theory about Rey which explain a lot with her. I think she is the genetic daughter of Palpatine. There have been subtle visual hints to this and the mystery of her parentage still exists. I'm betting that the empire impregnated woman across the galaxy with Palpatine DNA trying to breed new Sith Lords and Rey is one of the results. Which is why she'll hear Palpatine's force ghost talking to her in the movie as she has to decide whether to follow her lineage or not.

[Lee Stone]

Luke with 2 minutes of training with Ben manages to outfly Vader longer than any other Rebel pilot even to the point that Vader gets frustrated. Vader was allegedly the best pilot in the galaxy and a Sith Lord yet he had to struggle to beat a force sensitive, he had no training so he can't even be considered a force user or Padawan.

Luke then only had 1-2 days of training with Yoda and thats being generous as you have to line his training up with the Bespin storyline and still get Luke there in time to see Boba Fett leaving. He then actually is beating Vader in a lightsaber battle, despite no training in lightsaber fighting, until Vader makes him realize he's giving in to the dark side at which point Luke runs away.

Luke then trains with no one and somehow becomes skilled enough to be a full Jedi.

He is the original Star Wars Mary Sue.

Don't forget he only made the shot that destroyed the Death Star because of the Force.
Without it, he would've missed, just like everyone else.

[BeastieRunner]

wuuuuuuuuut???

his one in a million miiight have been skill paired with confidence!
next force stunt we seem him perform is him gathering all of his strength to avoid certain death by being eaten by a savage ice monster.

do you know star wars at all?

thing is, from a stupid marketing point of view, they have been amping of force powers over the years. just look at the force unleashed(sigh) games.
while i admit that the early movies were limited by their days special effect, you can´t just amp up new characters to the max cause it makes established characters look like losers.
there has to be a believable transition.

as a jedi freshman luke just did some jumps, failing with his 2nd attempt of a force mind trick.

as a full jedi, he has to focus hard to just let c3po float around a little. compare that to baby yoda lifting a savage beast or rey doing ... ahh ... everything she does.
as for size doesn´t matter, in my reading there is still a different from lifting a clueless droid or dead matter rocks/x-wing than a 2 tons enraged beast. since the force interacts with all living, remember? so the beast is not just dead matter but a wild soul fighting for its brood.
rey and baby yoda ofc would have just nailed the wampa to the caves wall. lightsabers, jedi toys ... who needs em?
ridiculous

Insults aside, I know Star Wars. I don't purport to be an expert, mind you. I've avoided a lot of the new stuff because I was concerned it would be non-canon. I know that Lucas reigned in Hamill in RotJ for being too fancy with his lightsaber skills. I know Luke did some pretty crazy stuff in the Bantum books, the old Marvel series, and even the current Marvel series. I know Lucas went back on that and changed it for the PT. So the ramping up has been going on for decades now. As has the inconsistent nature of the Force.

There are a lot of inferences made about length and time of Luke's training in the OT, some of them you made yourself. Same goes for Rey in the ST. I personally find it fascinating. Had Luke's feats been bigger, would you argue that he's OP? Had Rey's feats been smaller, would you argue that they make sense? Did you enjoy the Force feats in Rouge One?

I'm of the opinion of enjoying the new Force usages and level of feats from all the Disney stuff because they're ungrounded and have made the Force mystical again.

[abulafia]

Luke with 2 minutes of training with Ben manages to outfly Vader longer than any other Rebel pilot even to the point that Vader gets frustrated. Vader was allegedly the best pilot in the galaxy and a Sith Lord yet he had to struggle to beat a force sensitive, he had no training so he can't even be considered a force user or Padawan.

Luke then only had 1-2 days of training with Yoda and thats being generous as you have to line his training up with the Bespin storyline and still get Luke there in time to see Boba Fett leaving. He then actually is beating Vader in a lightsaber battle, despite no training in lightsaber fighting, until Vader makes him realize he's giving in to the dark side at which point Luke runs away.

Luke then trains with no one and somehow becomes skilled enough to be a full Jedi.

He is the original Star Wars Mary Sue.

Plus I have a theory about Rey which explain a lot with her. I think she is the genetic daughter of Palpatine. There have been subtle visual hints to this and the mystery of her parentage still exists. I'm betting that the empire impregnated woman across the galaxy with Palpatine DNA trying to breed new Sith Lords and Rey is one of the results. Which is why she'll hear Palpatine's force ghost talking to her in the movie as she has to decide whether to follow her lineage or not.

the one in a million was doable. the other rebel pilot almost made it. so it might be confidence and skill.
vader was not supposed to be the best star pilot in the galaxy when that movie was filmed. otherwise he would have tried spinning. when han showed up.
jedi powers don´t transfer well to dogfights. obi wan hates it and ki adi mundi is also a sitting duck like vader when han blew him off the orbit.
luke´s training time is not specified. the movie is densely cut, but the falcon traveled to bespin on non-hyperdrive speed. could have been weeks or months. don´t like it, just saying.
vader is toying with him, wanting to spare him and might have been underestimating luke´s fighting spirit during the fight. he still stays in control all the time though.
luke running away is actually an act of defiance and not cowardice.

luke developing between empire and return is a believable transition. what is your problem there? unkown amount of time has passed, maybe he might have found some jedi journals in the mean time cO

if you just compare rey/luke around the falcon, luke is reminded not to get cooky after scoring. when he insults han on that pile of rubbish, he is made to look like an inexperienced big mouth to the audience.
compare that to rey, i dare you.


anyway, i just thought about that scene with all the bounty hunters alerted to mando´s code breaking.
which reminded me of the scene of han and company at the maz kanada establishment. how stupid are both han and maz?
she shouts his friggn name across the room. and han should have been aware of the danger and maybe should have postponed his arrival on a more discrete channel.
these guys are supposed to be underworld experts. but they are unaware that everyone in the bar grabs their bounty comms? so stupid

[Blind Wedjat]

I'm no expert but Baby Yoda used the Force to briefly lift up a beast and then fainted, staying unconscious for several hours.

Rey on the other hand was pulling Jedi mind tricks (which I believe is a more impressive technique) without even knowing about the Force itself. She was able to fight and beat Kylo Ren who had been trained by Luke and Snoke.

I don't think those are comparable at all. Now Rey isn't a Mary Sue (being good at a lot of things or being better at something than everyone else doesn't make someone a Mary Sue - people really need to understand what the term means again). She's just an underdeveloped protagonist that does behave like a deus ex machina at times.

[abulafia]

I'm no expert but Baby Yoda used the Force to briefly lift up a beast and then fainted, staying unconscious for several hours.

Rey on the other hand was pulling Jedi mind tricks (which I believe is a more impressive technique) without even knowing about the Force itself. She was able to fight and beat Kylo Ren who had been trained by Luke and Snoke.

I don't think those are comparable at all. Now Rey isn't a Mary Sue (being good at a lot of things or being better at something than everyone else doesn't make someone a Mary Sue - people really need to understand what the term means again). She's just an underdeveloped protagonist that does behave like a deus ex machina at times.

the mary sue deal was sealed when leia hugged her instead of chewbacca. established characters are magically attracted to a mary sue, case closed

[BeastieRunner]

How do you think it would affect the narrative if the Child ends up being trained by a Jedi before he was put into hiding?

[abulafia]

How do you think it would affect the narrative if the Child ends up being trained by a Jedi before he was put into hiding?

i have no idea what you are hinting at, but why not address the points i made first?

[BeastieRunner]

i have no idea what you are hinting at, but why not address the points i made first?

... I did? And others have as well.

I was trying to move the conversation back to the Child. I'm curious to find out what people would think if it's revealed the Child had some interaction with a Jedi before being hidden.

[abulafia]

... I did? And others have as well.

I was trying to move the conversation back to the Child. I'm curious to find out what people would think if it's revealed the Child had some interaction with a Jedi before being hidden.

but ... that has no substance at all
i also dislike the idea that yoda´s race are all some fairy force folks. ofc they can pull anything out of their a****, but there have never been any hints. no one ever commented on the yodaloogians being special.
agh

to me it is just cheap fan service. like doing the last bounty being the possible son of ackbar. well, we shall see. maybe baby yoda is used to inflict the sith troopers with some schwartz juice.

[BeastieRunner]

but ... that has no substance at all
i also dislike the idea that yoda´s race are all some fairy force folks. ofc they can pull anything out of their a****, but there have never been any hints. no one ever commented on the yodaloogians being special.
agh

to me it is just cheap fan service. like doing the last bounty being the possible son of ackbar. well, we shall see. maybe baby yoda is used to inflict the sith troopers with some schwartz juice.

I've been enjoying the fan service because I enjoy finding the ET senators, seeing the world getting fleshed out with throw-away lines and tied together. Gives me a more lived-in feeling for my fiction. It's fun.

On your point though, you don't really like the Child then? Or is there a narrative you're hoping for that isn't obvious to most people?

[ZeroBG82]

Luke then only had 1-2 days of training with Yoda and thats being generous as you have to line his training up with the Bespin storyline

The Falcon had no hyperdrive. It had to travel from where it left the Imperial fleet to Bespin at sublight. That could easily have been weeks. There's no clear indication of time passing in the film itself, which is a problem. But it's pretty clear from the way Luke and Yoda interact that it was meant to be at least a couple of weeks. You don't send Luke into the dark side cave on day 2, not if you want to still have a functioning Jedi afterward.

[abulafia]

I've been enjoying the fan service because I enjoy finding the ET senators, seeing the world getting fleshed out with throw-away lines and tied together. Gives me a more lived-in feeling for my fiction. It's fun.

On your point though, you don't really like the Child then? Or is there a narrative you're hoping for that isn't obvious to most people?

i like that the child is resonating with the mando and thus developing the charactor of the protagonist. i am just not sure if had to be a yoda species (50 year old sigh) child.
i hope they can deliver why it had to be yodalings