The Mandalorian

[Frontier]

I have long thought the origin of all this tragedy came in TPM when Qui-Gon died. He was in many ways the mentor Anakin needed, someone who was kind and sympathetic yet also disciplined and experienced. In AOTC and ROTS, Yoda is too distant and too dogmatic (and arguably too alien) while Obi-Wan is too close and too young himself, inclined to performative displays of disapproval while actually treating Anakin with a mixture of indulgence and protectiveness that allows the padawan to act out while still feeling stifled.

I think the common consensus is that Qui-Gon probably would've been the Master Anakin needed more than Obi-Wan was, especially since he could've been the father figure Anakin needed in his life and he wasn't as strict as the rest of the prequel era Jedi were.

[SuperiorIronman]

I agree with you entirely about the old Jedi Order's hypocritical thinking (as well as the devotion to their dogma) led to their downfall; however, I don't get how this is associated with Luke because, in ROTJ, when Obi-Wan told Luke he needed to kill Vader (again a not very Jedi thing to do), Luke rejected that and believed he could redeem his father. What this demonstrates (even more so after the Prequels) was that the Jedi were flawed. Had they actually cared about Anakin as a person, and not simply a tool to fulfill the prophecy and allowed him to protect the ones he loved Palpatine never comes to power. The EU actually took this and had Luke take a completely different approach with his New Jedi Order. To have Luke revert back to the old Jedi ways to me never made any sense.

Well yeah, Luke realizes the Jedi's way of doing things is wrong and can't bring himself to do what his own father, Obi Wan, Mace Windu, or practically any of the other Jedi would've done in a heartbeat. Ends justify the means and Luke thinks he can be better than that. But he's still trained by Jedi and will restart the order based on the Prequel Jedi because he has no other reference. He has direct reference to the Prequel Jedi and everyone kind of neglected to inform him or accept until TLJ that they probably shouldn't do things like that. He can't kill Anakin because he's his father and thinks there's another way but Luke doesn't and shouldn't succeed. Anakin can't get off the Death Star for what he's done be it he's killed in the duel or he succumbs before he can get off. Luke gets to see Anakin come back but Luke can't have him. By the time we reach Ben he's seen what Vader has done and like before, he's too dangerous to be left alive.

[Derek Metaltron]

Variety just confirmed that BOBF is an independent series from the same creative team behind The Mandalorian S3 and that it will be released just before S3.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/dis...os-1234866986/

If I was to guess I think BOBF will be four episodes long and we’ll have the final episode of it and the first episode of S3 both on Christmas Eve 2021 (which falls on a Friday).

[j9ac9k]

Variety just confirmed that BOBF is an independent series from the same creative team behind The Mandalorian S3 and that it will be released just before S3.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/dis...os-1234866986/

If I was to guess I think BOBF will be four episodes long and we’ll have the final episode of it and the first episode of S3 both on Christmas Eve 2021 (which falls on a Friday).

There's a fun symmetry there since Boba Fett debuted in the Holiday special. Maybe we'll get a live-action retelling of what we saw in animation.

[ZeroBG82]

I have long thought the origin of all this tragedy came in TPM when Qui-Gon died.

Yes, that's more or less the subtext of TPM. Qui-Gon is the last "true" Jedi in the order. He repeatedly ditects Obi-Wan to be mindful of the Living Force. The day to day ebb and flow of life, and the people in it. Qui-Gon isn't at home in the temple, but out amidst the crowds and the citizens. He is much, much more in tune with the ordinary people of the galaxy than the rest of the Jedi.

Obi-Wan even tells Qui-Gon, in exasperation, that Qui-Gon would be on the Jedi Council if not for his complete lack of concern for being on it. Obi-Wan doesn't understand that Qui-Gon doesn't want to be on the council. His place is out in the galaxy, not in the Jedi temple.

It's that connection to the common folk, to the everyday, that the Jedi lack. It's why they fail so spectacularly to foresee or combat Sidious' plan for them. And it's arguably why Luke also ultimately fails, between ROTJ and TLJ. Though Luke comes around again by the end.

Anakin is built to be that same kind of Jedi. He cares. Too much, often. In a specific, individually focused way. But because the Jedi as a whole only understand a more abstract, generalized kind of emotional connection to the universe, he struggles. He has nobody to advise him or aid his struggles. (Compounded of course by his fear of failing and disappointing people, which leads him to hide much of gis struggles.)

It's a cosmic vs living Force problem. The Jedi Order of the late Republic is far too concerned with the cosmic Force. Introspective, insular, self focused.

[Frontier]

Anakin is built to be that same kind of Jedi. He cares. Too much, often. In a specific, individually focused way. But because the Jedi as a whole only understand a more abstract, generalized kind of emotional connection to the universe, he struggles. He has nobody to advise him or aid his struggles. (Compounded of course by his fear of failing and disappointing people, which leads him to hide much of gis struggles.)

Or at least to advise/aid in a way that he needs. That was the problem with his relationship with Obi-Wan, and Yoda wasn't much better. Which is part of why he was so susceptible to Sidious buttering him up.

[ZeroBG82]

Or at least to advise/aid in a way that he needs. That was the problem with his relationship with Obi-Wan, and Yoda wasn't much better. Which is part of why he was so susceptible to Sidious buttering him up.

This is a good point. Part of Palpatine's charm and appeal to Anakin was almost certainly that he seemed to be more in tune with both that emotional, intense side of Anakin but also that Palpatine played himself as a servant of, and protector of, the common man. He play acts at being more or less what Anakin actually craves to be. It isn't hard to imagine that part of why Anakin came to trust Palpatine more than the Jedi Council is that similar attitude, and how effectively Palpatine embodies for Anakin the disconnect between life the way he feels it should be and the way they Jedi tell him it should be.

[macjr33]

Yes, that's more or less the subtext of TPM. Qui-Gon is the last "true" Jedi in the order. He repeatedly ditects Obi-Wan to be mindful of the Living Force. The day to day ebb and flow of life, and the people in it. Qui-Gon isn't at home in the temple, but out amidst the crowds and the citizens. He is much, much more in tune with the ordinary people of the galaxy than the rest of the Jedi.

Obi-Wan even tells Qui-Gon, in exasperation, that Qui-Gon would be on the Jedi Council if not for his complete lack of concern for being on it. Obi-Wan doesn't understand that Qui-Gon doesn't want to be on the council. His place is out in the galaxy, not in the Jedi temple.

It's that connection to the common folk, to the everyday, that the Jedi lack. It's why they fail so spectacularly to foresee or combat Sidious' plan for them. And it's arguably why Luke also ultimately fails, between ROTJ and TLJ. Though Luke comes around again by the end.

Anakin is built to be that same kind of Jedi. He cares. Too much, often. In a specific, individually focused way. But because the Jedi as a whole only understand a more abstract, generalized kind of emotional connection to the universe, he struggles. He has nobody to advise him or aid his struggles. (Compounded of course by his fear of failing and disappointing people, which leads him to hide much of gis struggles.)

It's a cosmic vs living Force problem. The Jedi Order of the late Republic is far too concerned with the cosmic Force. Introspective, insular, self focused.

Completely agree about the piece on Qui-Gon and the cosmic vs. living force, Filoni had amazing analysis that talks a lot about exactly what you are saying.

Where I disagree is that Luke should have been like Qui-Gon (or even Anakin to your point) because he does care about people. He leaves his training to try and save his friends; he goes back to rescue Han; he leaves the mission on Endor to yes save his father, but also because he is endangering the mission and he is willing to die to allow them to complete the mission; he is enraged at the thought of Vader turning Leia to the dark side.

[macjr33]

This is a good point. Part of Palpatine's charm and appeal to Anakin was almost certainly that he seemed to be more in tune with both that emotional, intense side of Anakin but also that Palpatine played himself as a servant of, and protector of, the common man. He play acts at being more or less what Anakin actually craves to be. It isn't hard to imagine that part of why Anakin came to trust Palpatine more than the Jedi Council is that similar attitude, and how effectively Palpatine embodies for Anakin the disconnect between life the way he feels it should be and the way they Jedi tell him it should be.

Palpatine knew exactly what he was doing; however, the Jedi didn't do Anakin any favors either. They never trusted him. Also, ROTS also plays out like a Greek tragedy in that Anakin has visions of Padme's death and in effort to do anything to try and save her he is ultimately responsible for her death. Palpatine made false promises to Anakin while the Jedi simply didn't care.

[ZeroBG82]

Where I disagree is that Luke should have been like Qui-Gon (or even Anakin to your point) because he does care about people.

We're actually on the same page, I just wasn't as clear as I could have been. Luke clearly had his head on straight throughout the OT. I would go so far as to say that Luke, in the OT, is the ultimate epitome of what a Jedi is meant to be. He's emotionally balanced. He finds focus and purpose from them, rather than confusion and harm, as his father did. He makes easy connections to the people around him, and is always emotionally present in dealing with them (as an example, look at the interactions in the trench with Biggs and Wedge). Luke is very much of the world and the people in it, and stands in stark opposition to the Jedi of old even before he refuses to do as Yoda and Obi-wan ask and kill his father.

I am rather referring solely to the inciting incident from the flashback's in TLJ (all commentary about the quality of the film or the narrative choices aside) with Ben. We can debate the quality of the film, or the narrative choices, but I've always taken from that scene that Luke's failing in that moment was more or less the same as that of the Republic Jedi, namely insular and institutional thinking. I mean, there's a reason the climax of the film is Luke finding his way back to himself and literally returning to the world to protect those he loves once again.

[thwhtGuardian]

Looks like we get Boba Fett on his own show and more Mandalorian next year for Life Day. We must remember to all be really good in the coming year so that we're worthy of such an excellent gift.

[Derek Metaltron]

A subtle but great improvement here to Luke via deep fake by Shamook.

[Sutekh]

Obi-Wan even tells Qui-Gon, in exasperation, that Qui-Gon would be on the Jedi Council if not for his complete lack of concern for being on it. Obi-Wan doesn't understand that Qui-Gon doesn't want to be on the council. His place is out in the galaxy, not in the Jedi temple.

It's that connection to the common folk, to the everyday, that the Jedi lack. It's why they fail so spectacularly to foresee or combat Sidious' plan for them.

I like that. And it plays into what Yoda says in the beginning, that the Force is generated by life, it surrounds and sustains us. To find the Force, go where the people are. Immerse yourself among them. Interesting!

I did like the swordfight between Qui-Gon and Maul, where they get separated by the force fields and Qui-Gon sits down and meditates, clearing his mind, and Maul is pacing and keeping himself worked up, highlighting their two very different ways of connecting with the force, the Jedi way of self-control and the Sith way of embracing (and surrendering to) strong passions.

[Immortal Weapon]

Variety just confirmed that BOBF is an independent series from the same creative team behind The Mandalorian S3 and that it will be released just before S3.

https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/dis...os-1234866986/

If I was to guess I think BOBF will be four episodes long and we’ll have the final episode of it and the first episode of S3 both on Christmas Eve 2021 (which falls on a Friday).

I like how the Mandalorian has become the new benchmark for Star Wars.

[Frontier]

Looks like we get Boba Fett on his own show and more Mandalorian next year for Life Day. We must remember to all be really good in the coming year so that we're worthy of such an excellent gift.

December is the month of the Mandalorians .