The Mandalorian

[ZeroBG82]

The dude is a fascist villain. We need to stop pretending that’s not the case.

For the record, I don't see Thrawn as an anti-hero, or even an anti-villain. I agree with you that he's a villain, in terms of the Imperial-Rebel axis. But I don't agree that he's a fascist. He's a pragmatist, taken to the utter extreme.

It's important to clarify why he's a villain. He is deliberately portrayed with heroic qualities, and many heroic traits and even deeds in his Chiss stories. That is deliberate. Not because anybody is supporting his position, later during the Empire, but because NOT ALL VILLAINS ARE "BAD" GUYS. Thrawn isn't a bully, or a fascist. He's just committed to an incredibly narrow worldview which clouds his ability to make moral judgements outside of that box.

He's a villain because he's a pathologically ardent nationalist. You cannot separate him from his commitment to the Chiss. It literally defines him. His every action is ultimately predicated upon it, for good or ill. This has bred a pragmatism that, you are correct, is amoral.

He's a hero TO HIS PEOPLE. He's never made any effort to undermine their government. He's literally given everything of himself to them. There is ZERO indication that he supports fascism. Militarism, arguably. He actively works to prevent genocide, to the point of violating Chiss cultural taboos. He has no use for factionalism, political boundaries, or prejudices. But that's among the Chiss.

However, out in the Empire, Thrawn doesn't give two figs about anybody. You're either useful to his mission, which is protecting the Chiss Ascendancy, or you don't matter. What does he care if the Empire enslaves? What difference does it make to the Chiss if he witnesses the death of a race too weak to fight back. He needs an ally strong enough to aid the Chiss, sees the Empire as the only logical state to embody that ally (due to military strength and, yes, authoritarian leadership) and will do whatever it takes to keep that ally strong and win them to his cause.

He's basically Anakin Skywalker, but with a different character flaw blinding him to his own failings. It's why he ultimately loses, when he does. And it's what makes him interesting. He COULD be a good guy. He COULD be an ally, and an amazing one. But he won't be. The "tragedy" of Thrawn is that if he could just open his big brain to larger possibilities he'd not only win, but could make something like the Rebellion or the New Republic into the very thing he seeks. But he's so blinded by his own fear and his own ultra-nationalism that he can't see past the nose of his Star Destroyer.

I don't think there's a story where Thrawn can ever really realize that he's wrong. His flaw should, and almost certainly will, destroy him. But if he ever processes where he's gone wrong, every indication is that he'd try to change. No, I think Thrawn just has to die confused, failing to understand where he's gone so wrong and why the universe hasn't gone the way he thinks it should.

[Frontier]

For the record, I don't see Thrawn as an anti-hero, or even an anti-villain. I agree with you that he's a villain, in terms of the Imperial-Rebel axis. But I don't agree that he's a fascist. He's a pragmatist, taken to the utter extreme.

It's important to clarify why he's a villain. He is deliberately portrayed with heroic qualities, and many heroic traits and even deeds in his Chiss stories. That is deliberate. Not because anybody is supporting his position, later during the Empire, but because NOT ALL VILLAINS ARE "BAD" GUYS. Thrawn isn't a bully, or a fascist. He's just committed to an incredibly narrow worldview which clouds his ability to make moral judgements outside of that box.

He's a villain because he's a pathologically ardent nationalist. You cannot separate him from his commitment to the Chiss. It literally defines him. His every action is ultimately predicated upon it, for good or ill. This has bred a pragmatism that, you are correct, is amoral.

He's a hero TO HIS PEOPLE. He's never made any effort to undermine their government. He's literally given everything of himself to them. There is ZERO indication that he supports fascism. Militarism, arguably. He actively works to prevent genocide, to the point of violating Chiss cultural taboos. He has no use for factionalism, political boundaries, or prejudices. But that's among the Chiss.

However, out in the Empire, Thrawn doesn't give two figs about anybody. You're either useful to his mission, which is protecting the Chiss Ascendancy, or you don't matter. What does he care if the Empire enslaves? What difference does it make to the Chiss if he witnesses the death of a race too weak to fight back. He needs an ally strong enough to aid the Chiss, sees the Empire as the only logical state to embody that ally (due to military strength and, yes, authoritarian leadership) and will do whatever it takes to keep that ally strong and win them to his cause.

He's basically Anakin Skywalker, but with a different character flaw blinding him to his own failings. It's why he ultimately loses, when he does. And it's what makes him interesting. He COULD be a good guy. He COULD be an ally, and an amazing one. But he won't be. The "tragedy" of Thrawn is that if he could just open his big brain to larger possibilities he'd not only win, but could make something like the Rebellion or the New Republic into the very thing he seeks. But he's so blinded by his own fear and his own ultra-nationalism that he can't see past the nose of his Star Destroyer.

I don't think there's a story where Thrawn can ever really realize that he's wrong. His flaw should, and almost certainly will, destroy him. But if he ever processes where he's gone wrong, every indication is that he'd try to change. No, I think Thrawn just has to die confused, failing to understand where he's gone so wrong and why the universe hasn't gone the way he thinks it should.

I wouldn't say he doesn't care about anybody in terms of working for the Empire. He's still cordial, respectful, and genuinely interested in other people (especially if he sees something worth respecting in them) and cultures, and probably compared to any other Imperial he wouldn't go out of his way to be mustache twirling evil unless he felt he absolutely had to. To him it's just a means to an end and a job that he'll fulfill as much as he's capable of, while still ultimately serving the Chiss.

I guess whether Thrawn was "wrong" really depends on your perspective. Probably from a Rebel or a normal heroic perspective his entire involvement with the Empire was damning and wrong but to him and to the Chiss (or at least anyone who knows the real reason he was exiled) he's basically still been doing what he feels is right for his people. But honestly with the Empire in the state it is in post-RoTJ I think he might be more open to what the New Republic has to offer if he sees it has anything of value to offer the Chiss in general.

[Robotech Master]

Even with the Gryssk set up, I'm fairly certain that Thrawn's set up with still be as an antagonist. One with less cackling evil-doer motives than a Sith Emperor, but still not able to just conveniently work with the main characters. I think Thrawn's overall impression will be that the Empire had the means to repel the Gryssk and thus be a resource to help the Ascendancy, but the New Republic does not given their rather stupid idea to demilitarize so much. So I believe the reason he had that one woman deforesting a planet for fleet resources is because he wants to build up a new battle fleet.

[godisawesome]

Even with the Gryssk set up, I'm fairly certain that Thrawn's set up with still be as an antagonist. One with less cackling evil-doer motives than a Sith Emperor, but still not able to just conveniently work with the main characters. I think Thrawn's overall impression will be that the Empire had the means to repel the Gryssk and thus be a resource to help the Ascendancy, but the New Republic does not given their rather stupid idea to demilitarize so much. So I believe the reason he had that one woman deforesting a planet for fleet resources is because he wants to build up a new battle fleet.

And that’s what makes him a facsist, even if it’s a “little f” fascist.

Because anyone can tell that the New Republic, like the Old Republic, is a better military when mobilized than the Empire. Even the ST ends up showing if the Galaxy gets off it’s ass for one day, they can kick more ass than Palpatine’s military, because incompetence and wastefulness are the price to pay for an autocracy/theocracy like the Empire.

If Thrawn didn’t have some kind of equivalent to far right idealism, he could probably get a better army with greater logistical support just by talking to the New Republic.

It may be a foolish idea to demilitarize when there’s still great threats in the Galaxy, but Thrawn on some level wants this a hard right military to be the answer even if it’s not, and it’s just not going to be the answer.

Even the historical Rommel would be a lower-case facsist, and he at least had the decency to quietly accept a plan to kill Hitler. Palpatine’s like Hitler on crack in terms of evil.

This is Star Wars. Democracy, ultimately, turns out to be the right type of government over dictatorship,

[Frontier]

Would Thrawn even know much about the New Republic? I assume and Ezra would probably be pretty cut off from everything.

But maybe that's me going along with the idea that he and Ezra will probably be working together when Ahsoka finds them.

[Tofali]

Since Ezra has sympathy for bad guys do you think we should expect Thrawn to feed him his sob story then ending up turning him or at least influence him in some way.

[thwhtGuardian]

Since Ezra has sympathy for bad guys do you think we should expect Thrawn to feed him his sob story then ending up turning him or at least influence him in some way.

There's no real sob story, Thrawn worked with the Empire because he felt they were the best tool to use against the threat his people(and the galaxy as a whole) were facing.

[Tofali]

There's no real sob story, Thrawn worked with the Empire because he felt they were the best tool to use against the threat his people(and the galaxy as a whole) were facing.

Oh! I should have clarified to me it is a sob story because even though his backstory explains his motive at the end of the day he is still a villain

[thwhtGuardian]

Oh! I should have clarified to me it is a sob story because even though his backstory explains his motive at the end of the day he is still a villain

Eh, in my eyes he's more opportunist than villain these days.

[godisawesome]

Would Thrawn even know much about the New Republic? I assume and Ezra would probably be pretty cut off from everything.

But maybe that's me going along with the idea that he and Ezra will probably be working together when Ahsoka finds them.

If he’s got an active agent like Elsbeth in the modern Galaxy, than he’s going to be informed on modern events and factions; he's Thrawn. I don’t think he automatically got shanghaied into a protagonist just because he disappeared with Ezra; I think it’s far more likely he imprisoned Ezra wherever they were, and that Ezra escaped or something, rather than them becoming buddies.

I just don’t think they’d waste Thrawn’s potential as a villain just to try and pull a surprise delight for fans of the book series who don't consider him a. Villainous protagonist - the character’s a much better asset as an antagonistic faction leader, and he’s already soiled himself too much to really qualify as a mere opportunist.

To change the subject a bit - three of the podcasts I listened to that talked about the teasers all mentioned they thought Bo-Katan was being positioned as an antagonist in the teaser. Now, I felt something like that ways inevitable given her complicated history and the way she exited The Mandalorian in Season 2… but I know a few fanboys and fangirls who really want her as a protagonist (including a few who want her to win the Darksaber and become the Mandalore.)

What role do you think she shouldtake?

I prefer a tragic anti-hero/anti-villain who tries to grant Din a political friendship between them, but who inevitably gives into the pressure to fight him, all while being exposed as inadequate for the larger leadership role, though not for *a* leadership role; I like the idea of her possibly ending up as a subdued aristocratic advisor and lieutenant for Din/Grogu/some-“Commonwealth of Mandalore” government, but I think she’s demonstrated she’s a bit too myopic and tolerant of some of the worst excesses of Mandalorian martial tradition to really be the Mandalore.

[Frontier]

If he’s got an active agent like Elsbeth in the modern Galaxy, than he’s going to be informed on modern events and factions; he's Thrawn. I don’t think he automatically got shanghaied into a protagonist just because he disappeared with Ezra; I think it’s far more likely he imprisoned Ezra wherever they were, and that Ezra escaped or something, rather than them becoming buddies.

I just don’t think they’d waste Thrawn’s potential as a villain just to try and pull a surprise delight for fans of the book series who don't consider him a. Villainous protagonist - the character’s a much better asset as an antagonistic faction leader, and he’s already soiled himself too much to really qualify as a mere opportunist.

To change the subject a bit - three of the podcasts I listened to that talked about the teasers all mentioned they thought Bo-Katan was being positioned as an antagonist in the teaser. Now, I felt something like that ways inevitable given her complicated history and the way she exited The Mandalorian in Season 2… but I know a few fanboys and fangirls who really want her as a protagonist (including a few who want her to win the Darksaber and become the Mandalore.)

What role do you think she shouldtake?

I prefer a tragic anti-hero/anti-villain who tries to grant Din a political friendship between them, but who inevitably gives into the pressure to fight him, all while being exposed as inadequate for the larger leadership role, though not for *a* leadership role; I like the idea of her possibly ending up as a subdued aristocratic advisor and lieutenant for Din/Grogu/some-“Commonwealth of Mandalore” government, but I think she’s demonstrated she’s a bit too myopic and tolerant of some of the worst excesses of Mandalorian martial tradition to really be the Mandalore.

I feel like that would be too typical a plot for them to go with, but I've been surprised before.

As far as Bo-Katan...I feel like she'll probably screw herself again because she can't help herself before she sees the light of a possibility of a truly new Mandalore.

[godisawesome]

I feel like that would be too typical a plot for them to go with, but I've been surprised before.

As far as Bo-Katan...I feel like she'll probably screw herself again because she can't help herself before she sees the light of a possibility of a truly new Mandalore.

I don’t know if they can manufacture a brand new villain or faction to be a big bad for several prestige TV shows anywhere near as well as they could just “plug and play” Thrawn in the role; and besides, the larger audience (including hardcore fans) knows and loves Thrawn as a villain.

Bo Katan and the Armorer are basically the same character archetype, just done differently - they’re both fanatics for a “traditional” Mandalore, with Bo being a supporter of the old warrior aristocracy and the Armorer a religious fundamentalist. And it’s likely they’re both former Death Watch adherents - warriors willing to commit terrorism to try and get back their idealized society.

I’m kind of hoping Sabine gets introduced in The Mandalorian Season 3 before the Ahsoka show as kind of another alternative female power figure within Mandalroian society, or at least as an alternate role model for Din - she’s got her eyes on the bigger picture and on a more encompassing morality.

[Frontier]

I don’t know if they can manufacture a brand new villain or faction to be a big bad for several prestige TV shows anywhere near as well as they could just “plug and play” Thrawn in the role; and besides, the larger audience (including hardcore fans) knows and loves Thrawn as a villain.

Bo Katan and the Armorer are basically the same character archetype, just done differently - they’re both fanatics for a “traditional” Mandalore, with Bo being a supporter of the old warrior aristocracy and the Armorer a religious fundamentalist. And it’s likely they’re both former Death Watch adherents - warriors willing to commit terrorism to try and get back their idealized society.

I’m kind of hoping Sabine gets introduced in The Mandalorian Season 3 before the Ahsoka show as kind of another alternative female power figure within Mandalroian society, or at least as an alternate role model for Din - she’s got her eyes on the bigger picture and on a more encompassing morality.

Well, if Gideon is any indication their attempts at original villains are only so-so.

I think it would behoove them to reintroduce a Thrawn with some of the complexity we saw in the books now that we're outside the purview of his involvement in Rebels, but that's just me.

I'm curious to see what Sabine might think of Din. Or, like, what happened to her family.

[comicstar100]

Can this show come back already. My favorite thing from the franchise currently.

[godisawesome]

I'm curious to see what Sabine might think of Din. Or, like, what happened to her family.

I almost feel like Sabine “has” to be introduced to live action in The Mandalorian first because of her and Din’s similarities, differences, and just how much easier it would be to get “laymen” Star Wars fans who shrink from the cartoons to get what the character is about that way. Din’s constant displays of ignorance of the big name players in the Galaxy has allowed them to get some exposition done pretty easily and organically, so why not just repeat the pattern with Sabine.

I mean, even without really introducing any new elements for her which might involve her family or her personal reaction and activities during the Mandalorian Purge, she and Din have a lot of things in common: they’re both more compassionate, pro-Republic heroic Mandalorians who wound up reluctantly wielding the Darksaber, with usually good relationships with Jedi for a Mandalorian, and now both have some idea of what it’s like to be in exile from their clan. But they’re also radically different: Sabine’s an extroverted aristocratic academic prodigy from the more secular type of Mandalorians who paints her armor to express herself while rarely keeping her helmet on, and Din’s an introverted adoptee of a fundamentalist cult of Mandalorians who clearly even now has hang ups about taking his helmet off, and prefers unpainted armor.

Still, I feel it’s likely they’ll eventually be friendly to each other - their views on the bigger Galactic picture are too similar, and Sabine’s liable to like Din being Grogu’s Dad and might very well be the person who teaches Din how to use the Darksaber correctly (something I’d love to see, since Trials of the Darksaber is an all-time Star Wars character study).

But I’m caveating that with “eventually” because I could see a more mischievous writing team deciding to have The Armorer or even Bo-Katan try to incite a conflict between Din and Sabine because of some story elements they have access to: Bo-Katan might encourage a duel of some sort because of Sabine being the last person to win the Darksaber in combat before handing it to her (since Sabine beat Gar Saxon), and I can’t imagine The Armorer has anything nice to say about someone who made a weapon that turns Beskar armor against the Mandalorians…

As to her family… really, that should be fascinating to hear about, because it might define Sabine’s mood and placement among the Mandos. Did she evacuate them or recruit them for the Rebellion? Did they die following Bo-Katan? Is she again estranged from them or in self-exile? Or are they still supporting her?