Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
Yeah, people forgot/don't know that there were points where Gwen was a bitch, but the way he worded in that quote makes it sound like she was like that all the time.
She was that enough times for it to stick out. There was always a dissonance between Gwen as presented by the story and seen by other characters, and what Gwen does. I mean her relationship with Peter was always shallow in that we never really saw them on dates in the comic, it was always them exchanging "Gwendolyn dear" (yes Peter would call her by her full name...why he didn't get dumped for that I never understood) or "Man o'mine" (why Peter didn't dump her for that I never understood). They never had fights either or differences. The only way that relationship makes sense as being significant to Peter, in the sense of realistic psychology, is that Peter saw Gwen as a ticket to a higher social class and put up with her out of a sense that he could marry into the Stacys and get a hot trophy and a cool Dad figure to support him in the bargain. In other words, Peter was a social climber who put up with Gwen and a shallow relationship largely so he could move on up.

Gwen Stacy is the only character Peter dated to come from a higher social class than him. And I think among the fans who read the comic, largely male fans, Gwen being this blonde rich girl represents a trophy wife of some sort. I mean look at Mark Waid's House of M story. Waid is a self-proclaimed Gwenista, and in that story Gwen is basically a suburban hausfrau trophy wife. The relationship with her is about Peter earning the '50s version of the American Dream. You have a same thing in the 90s Fox cartoon where Peter goes to the AU.

That Bullit 2 parter happened soon after her father died where she was still grieving, and it was blatantly obvious that he was manipulating her, it is stupid that they never showed her thoughts on him once he was outted, but she was supporting him more so because she wanted Spider-Man to be hunted and never at any point showed a racist trait.
Here's the thing in-and-of-itself the idea of a blonde white woman being innocently duped into following a white supremacist, a man hated by her own dearly departed father (who Jameson admits was a liberal)...is problematic. It carries a presumption of white innocence and of course the idea that white girls are always these innocent lambs who are either not accountable for their answers or they're hot/stupid enough that they can be redeemed/pardoned/excused. Even excusing the sexism-racism (in that the idea is simultaneously sexist and racist at the same time in some quantum entanglement), there's the fact that Bullitt more or less admits that he wants to kill Spider-Man and Gwen seems on-board with that. It's one thing to want to bring Spider-Man to justice, quite another to want to kill him.

Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
There are certainly elements of the comic book character in Kirsten's Mary Jane (such as her rocky upbringing and career as an actress), but the personality and psychology of each character is entirely different.
Fair enough. I see that as a legitimate choice of adaptation. And again the romance of that movie was a huge part of the film's success, so it wasn't a bad idea.

As you pointed out, in the film trilogy, MJ suffers from low self-esteem and self worth. She has been told by her father that she is stupid and worthless, and she internalized this perception. She seeks validation in her relationships with other characters including Peter. This is partially why she falls for Peter because, unlike her father, he validates her self-worth.
Which again from an adaptation perspective, is a good approach. MJ needs something from Peter as much as Peter needs something from MJ. It makes the two balanced and equals and makes the romance something you care about and buy into. We totally get why MJ runs away from the astronaut guy to be with Peter at the end of SM-2.

It also fits how Gerry Conway saw the two. As he said, "Only a damaged person would be with someone as damaged as Peter".

Another thing that's lost in the Raimi trilogy is the Peter and Mary Jane dynamic. In the comics, MJ is witty and can be a bit of a goofball. She gets Peter to loosen up. (See "20 second dance party" for the most recent example of this.) In the films, she is almost entirely humorless.
Tobey's Peter is also humorless. Raimi really toned that down. Tobey's Peter always has an "aw-shucks" charm to him. Whereas comics!Peter is 70% thought bubbles ranting/whining/being paranoid about everything under the sun, he's basically a curmudgeon in a young man's body, 20% quips as Spider-Man, 5% NYC-style sass, and 3% lame jokes. Ideally they should have had narration throughout the films as Peter offers a running commentary...it could be like Goodfellas. But in the movie you only had brief narration at the start of each movie.

Would I have preferred Dunst's MJ to show more of comics' MJ's humor, wit and sass? Yes. She was definitely capable of that kind of comedy if you see her previous films, and also in Marie Antoinette. But again, I am happy with what we got. I mean I would have loved this bit of exchange in the movies (mostly because the dialogue is really movie-worthy).

Mary Jane Watson: You're the tensest person I've ever met, Pete. I think that's what makes you so loveable. You always look like you're going to fall apart — like a Charlie Brown who's just had the football jerked away from him.
Peter Parker: That's the strangest compliment I've ever received, MJ. If it was a compliment.
MJ: Oh, it was, baby. It was.
— The Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 1, #141, dialogue by Gerry Conway (1975)

The most "MJ-like" moment that Kirsten had in those films was at the end of SM2. Her speech to Peter could have been ripped straight from the comics.
Oh absolutely. "Wasn't it time someone saved your life?" And of course the bit where Peter turns and sees her standing in the doorway, it's a famous MJ motif, whether from her introduction, the end of ASM#122, and the end of ASM#149.