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  1. #106
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    In light of having previously mentioned Elektra and her strong character, I suppose it would be appropriate to mention that Frank Miller actually wrote a letter to Marvel that got featured in The Cat #3 (April, 1973), the same year as Amazing Spider-Man #121.

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 12-03-2019 at 08:35 PM.

  2. #107

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    There would also be death threats when she got killed off.

  3. #108
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    There would also be death threats when she got killed off.
    Gwen's death represented an end to the hapless female in comics and the rise of a modern woman who was much more independent. This could have been a factor.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  4. #109
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Does a story need to have aged "well" to still be "good?" (Case in point, the original Ghostbusters has some parts that can make you cringe today, but it's still considered a legitimately good classic.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  5. #110
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Gwen's death represented an end to the hapless female in comics and the rise of a modern woman who was much more independent. This could have been a factor.
    One could argue the "hapless female" was still around plenty of times after 1973. Also, in retrospect, seeing as how there were quite a number of competent female superheroes in the early 1940s, I get the feeling that it was in the generation after World War II that people got too comfortable with the women simply being housewives during the baby-booming, despite women having taken on more active jobs earlier in the 40s. Makes me wonder if that played a huge factor towards the "hapless female" in comics as well.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 12-10-2019 at 11:37 PM.

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Does a story need to have aged "well" to still be "good?" (Case in point, the original Ghostbusters has some parts that can make you cringe today, but it's still considered a legitimately good classic.)
    you can have one without the other. but whether or not it's "good", is almost a tangential topic, no?
    troo fan or death

  7. #112
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Does a story need to have aged "well" to still be "good?" (Case in point, the original Ghostbusters has some parts that can make you cringe today, but it's still considered a legitimately good classic.)
    Any "classic" has elements that are problematic and weird but a substantial part of it needs to work for it to remain a classic. So yeah aging well needs to be a priority for a story to be "good".

    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    you can have one without the other. but whether or not it's "good", is almost a tangential topic, no?
    It's been argued that the problem with "classics" is precisely that they are too good.

    Like for instance if you say "fridging" is bad and lazy storytelling you have people who will cite The Night Gwen Stacy Died as a classic story with fridging, so how can fridging by default be bad? The problem then isn't that Night Gwen Stacy Died is bad, it's that it's good. As a comic story, the two-parter works pretty well and is very good for superhero storytelling (overall comics, maybe not so much).

  8. #113
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    you can have one without the other. but whether or not it's "good", is almost a tangential topic, no?
    Well, it does impact how we see the story. I mean there's a reason that the Gwen Stacy story is still well respected, even if if the killing off of female supporting characters is something that's become tricky to do "right," if that makes any sense, while that infamous Captain Marvel Avengers Annual is regarded as utter garbage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Any "classic" has elements that are problematic and weird but a substantial part of it needs to work for it to remain a classic. So yeah aging well needs to be a priority for a story to be "good".
    Case-by-case?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  9. #114
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Well, it does impact how we see the story.
    It should. A great story having a negative influence isn't an easy pill to take down.

    I mean there's a reason that the Gwen Stacy story is still well respected, even if if the killing off of female supporting characters is something that's become tricky to do "right," if that makes any sense, while that infamous Captain Marvel Avengers Annual is regarded as utter garbage.
    The Captain Marvel Annual for all its content didn't exactly kill Carol Danvers. The Captain Marvel story isn't fridging because A) Carol Danvers doesn't die, B) still the main character of the story, C) not done to her for the sake of development of male avengers.

    Doesn't mean it's better, just that it's not fridging.

    Case-by-case?
    Yeah. I mean Karen Page dying in Guardian Devil is absolutely a case of fridging and done for no reason whatsoever (Kevin Smith said recently that Quesada told him to do it to drive stakes and he regrets it somewhat).

    I still think that Part 1 of The Night Gwen Stacy Died is a very weak issue of superhero comics and Part 2 is much better on every level.

  10. #115
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    One could argue the "hapless female" was still around plenty of times after 1973. Also, in retrospect, seeing as how there were quite a number of competent female superheroes in the early 1940s, I get the feeling that it was in the generation after World War II that people got too comfortable with the women simply being housewives during the baby-booming, despite women having taken on more active jobs earlier in the 40s. Makes me wonder if that played a huge factor towards the "hapless female" in comics as well.
    Not sure exactly what you are getting at, but there is a certain stigma even today for women who don't choose to work jobs or be independent and strong. In some ways, feminism and its post-1960s expressions have overcompensated and maybe even been harmful to some women. The women like Gwen in particular. The MJs have won out in culture and to be a Gwen today is a way to get mocked.

    But overall we men especially still have a long ways to go towards respecting women. So its going to continue to be this way, with the strong feminist types on one side and the patriarchs on the other, with a lot of women caught between who would be happier if they weren't pulled one way or the other.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  11. #116
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    What do you think?
    A good but overrated story. Had Marvel not followed trough on the writer's intention, very few people would still be talking about it. Which is to say that its main strength resides outside the two comics that tell the story, in the editorial guidelines maintained ever since.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The story is ASM #121 and 122. i.e. two-parts. And mostly, the story is remembered for Part 1 and Part 1 is weak.
    I don't know what people remember, but I can search what they vote, and #122 has 4.9/5 (356 votes ATM) while #121 is a little below with 4.72/5 (359 votes ATM). Personally, I take half a point (over 10) from #122's score, compared to #121, because there're clear plot holes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Makes me wonder if that played a huge factor towards the "hapless female" in comics as well.
    Probably, the 60's ended those notions, even though comics took a while, to follow suite.
    Last edited by Ozymandias; 12-13-2019 at 02:10 AM.

  12. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Does a story need to have aged "well" to still be "good?" (Case in point, the original Ghostbusters has some parts that can make you cringe today, but it's still considered a legitimately good classic.)
    It definitely helps. You're more likely to recommend it if there are less caveats.

  13. #118
    All-New Member twenty2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post

    There was the "Spectacular Spider-Man Magazine#2" (Not the same as the usual Spectacular comics) that had Norman's memory returning, and he invited Peter, Gwen and MJ to a dinner in his house, or something like that, and ASM did occasionally reference it, so at least in that they've met.
    That story is great and gives more context to ASM 121/122
    Itís like having a big white sheet of paper to draw on! A day full of possibilities!

  14. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    In light of having previously mentioned Elektra and her strong character, I suppose it would be appropriate to mention that Frank Miller actually wrote a letter to Marvel that got featured in The Cat #3 (April, 1973), the same year as Amazing Spider-Man #121.

    But was that THE Frank Miller? "Frank" and "Miller" are common names, it could have easily been some other guy also called "Frank Miller". Unless, of course, he confirmed it later.

  15. #120
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    But was that THE Frank Miller? "Frank" and "Miller" are common names, it could have easily been some other guy also called "Frank Miller". Unless, of course, he confirmed it later.
    According to the Wikipedia, he was raised in Montpelier, Vermont. Looks like it adds up.

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