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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Yeah, people forgot/don't know that there were points where Gwen was a bitch, but the way he worded in that quote makes it sound like she was like that all the time.
    She was that enough times for it to stick out. There was always a dissonance between Gwen as presented by the story and seen by other characters, and what Gwen does. I mean her relationship with Peter was always shallow in that we never really saw them on dates in the comic, it was always them exchanging "Gwendolyn dear" (yes Peter would call her by her full name...why he didn't get dumped for that I never understood) or "Man o'mine" (why Peter didn't dump her for that I never understood). They never had fights either or differences. The only way that relationship makes sense as being significant to Peter, in the sense of realistic psychology, is that Peter saw Gwen as a ticket to a higher social class and put up with her out of a sense that he could marry into the Stacys and get a hot trophy and a cool Dad figure to support him in the bargain. In other words, Peter was a social climber who put up with Gwen and a shallow relationship largely so he could move on up.

    Gwen Stacy is the only character Peter dated to come from a higher social class than him. And I think among the fans who read the comic, largely male fans, Gwen being this blonde rich girl represents a trophy wife of some sort. I mean look at Mark Waid's House of M story. Waid is a self-proclaimed Gwenista, and in that story Gwen is basically a suburban hausfrau trophy wife. The relationship with her is about Peter earning the '50s version of the American Dream. You have a same thing in the 90s Fox cartoon where Peter goes to the AU.

    That Bullit 2 parter happened soon after her father died where she was still grieving, and it was blatantly obvious that he was manipulating her, it is stupid that they never showed her thoughts on him once he was outted, but she was supporting him more so because she wanted Spider-Man to be hunted and never at any point showed a racist trait.
    Here's the thing in-and-of-itself the idea of a blonde white woman being innocently duped into following a white supremacist, a man hated by her own dearly departed father (who Jameson admits was a liberal)...is problematic. It carries a presumption of white innocence and of course the idea that white girls are always these innocent lambs who are either not accountable for their answers or they're hot/stupid enough that they can be redeemed/pardoned/excused. Even excusing the sexism-racism (in that the idea is simultaneously sexist and racist at the same time in some quantum entanglement), there's the fact that Bullitt more or less admits that he wants to kill Spider-Man and Gwen seems on-board with that. It's one thing to want to bring Spider-Man to justice, quite another to want to kill him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    There are certainly elements of the comic book character in Kirsten's Mary Jane (such as her rocky upbringing and career as an actress), but the personality and psychology of each character is entirely different.
    Fair enough. I see that as a legitimate choice of adaptation. And again the romance of that movie was a huge part of the film's success, so it wasn't a bad idea.

    As you pointed out, in the film trilogy, MJ suffers from low self-esteem and self worth. She has been told by her father that she is stupid and worthless, and she internalized this perception. She seeks validation in her relationships with other characters including Peter. This is partially why she falls for Peter because, unlike her father, he validates her self-worth.
    Which again from an adaptation perspective, is a good approach. MJ needs something from Peter as much as Peter needs something from MJ. It makes the two balanced and equals and makes the romance something you care about and buy into. We totally get why MJ runs away from the astronaut guy to be with Peter at the end of SM-2.

    It also fits how Gerry Conway saw the two. As he said, "Only a damaged person would be with someone as damaged as Peter".

    Another thing that's lost in the Raimi trilogy is the Peter and Mary Jane dynamic. In the comics, MJ is witty and can be a bit of a goofball. She gets Peter to loosen up. (See "20 second dance party" for the most recent example of this.) In the films, she is almost entirely humorless.
    Tobey's Peter is also humorless. Raimi really toned that down. Tobey's Peter always has an "aw-shucks" charm to him. Whereas comics!Peter is 70% thought bubbles ranting/whining/being paranoid about everything under the sun, he's basically a curmudgeon in a young man's body, 20% quips as Spider-Man, 5% NYC-style sass, and 3% lame jokes. Ideally they should have had narration throughout the films as Peter offers a running commentary...it could be like Goodfellas. But in the movie you only had brief narration at the start of each movie.

    Would I have preferred Dunst's MJ to show more of comics' MJ's humor, wit and sass? Yes. She was definitely capable of that kind of comedy if you see her previous films, and also in Marie Antoinette. But again, I am happy with what we got. I mean I would have loved this bit of exchange in the movies (mostly because the dialogue is really movie-worthy).

    Mary Jane Watson: You're the tensest person I've ever met, Pete. I think that's what makes you so loveable. You always look like you're going to fall apart ó like a Charlie Brown who's just had the football jerked away from him.
    Peter Parker: That's the strangest compliment I've ever received, MJ. If it was a compliment.
    MJ: Oh, it was, baby. It was.
    ó The Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 1, #141, dialogue by Gerry Conway (1975)

    The most "MJ-like" moment that Kirsten had in those films was at the end of SM2. Her speech to Peter could have been ripped straight from the comics.
    Oh absolutely. "Wasn't it time someone saved your life?" And of course the bit where Peter turns and sees her standing in the doorway, it's a famous MJ motif, whether from her introduction, the end of ASM#122, and the end of ASM#149.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    She was that enough times for it to stick out.
    That she was, which I didn't deny it, just that on the 80+ issues she was around before dying, for most of it, she was treating Peter well.

    There was always a dissonance between Gwen as presented by the story and seen by other characters, and what Gwen does. I mean her relationship with Peter was always shallow in that we never really saw them on dates in the comic, it was always them exchanging "Gwendolyn dear" (yes Peter would call her by her full name...why he didn't get dumped for that I never understood) or "Man o'mine" (why Peter didn't dump her for that I never understood). They never had fights either or differences. The only way that relationship makes sense as being significant to Peter, in the sense of realistic psychology, is that Peter saw Gwen as a ticket to a higher social class and put up with her out of a sense that he could marry into the Stacys and get a hot trophy and a cool Dad figure to support him in the bargain. In other words, Peter was a social climber who put up with Gwen and a shallow relationship largely so he could move on up.
    I'm well aware that Peter and Gwen's relationship was shit since it was the typical lazy romance where the characters involved just say "I love you" and don't show any reasons to explain why they love each other, nor do they have enough interactions to show without saying, so all we have is a boring/bland romance where Gwen is just a generic female love interest, but either way, this doesn't have much to do with whether or not Gwen is a shit person, it just pointed out that she was a bland character.

    Gwen Stacy is the only character Peter dated to come from a higher social class than him. And I think among the fans who read the comic, largely male fans, Gwen being this blonde rich girl represents a trophy wife of some sort. I mean look at Mark Waid's House of M story. Waid is a self-proclaimed Gwenista, and in that story Gwen is basically a suburban hausfrau trophy wife. The relationship with her is about Peter earning the '50s version of the American Dream. You have a same thing in the 90s Fox cartoon where Peter goes to the AU.
    She's definitely treated by many like a trophy wife, but I doubt too many people even know/noticed she was from a higher class than him, it's mostly just because she died and gets treated like this saint of a love interest.

    Here's the thing in-and-of-itself the idea of a blonde white woman being innocently duped into following a white supremacist, a man hated by her own dearly departed father (who Jameson admits was a liberal)...is problematic. It carries a presumption of white innocence and of course the idea that white girls are always these innocent lambs who are either not accountable for their answers or they're hot/stupid enough that they can be redeemed/pardoned/excused. Even excusing the sexism-racism (in that the idea is simultaneously sexist and racist at the same time in some quantum entanglement), there's the fact that Bullitt more or less admits that he wants to kill Spider-Man and Gwen seems on-board with that. It's one thing to want to bring Spider-Man to justice, quite another to want to kill him.
    I seriously don't care about her race, sex or how hot she is, I'm looking at her situation, where her father died recently, which made her want revenge on Spider-Man, a figure who was already tormenting her for a while and then caused the death of her father, she's an idiot for trusting Bullit so much just because he was a cop who knew her father (And she leaves it at that, she doesn't know what her father thought of him), and her wanting revenge so much is wrong, and Lee/Romita not showing her thoughts on Bullit once the truth about him came out was just another of their laziness when writing her, and there was plenty of laziness. But the thing is that, being in a situation that makes one too emotional will cloud your judgement, and in her case it was grief and hatred, not that this excuses bad actions, but it makes them understandable, and even then, we only see her supporting Bullit because he promissed to bring Spidey to justice.

    So yeah, she was emotional, and an idiot, and if she had actually committed a crime, regardless of her emotional state, I'd keep it in mind and mention it occasionally as one of her traits.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    She's definitely treated by many like a trophy wife, but I doubt too many people even know/noticed she was from a higher class than him, it's mostly just because she died and gets treated like this saint of a love interest.
    Well that kind of stuff slips in subconsciously. Besides Americans of that era tended not to be class conscious, as opposed to nowadays. And that includes grownups leave alone young kids reading this stuff. So it's likely that they never looked at it critically.

    I mean if you look at The Night Gwen Stacy Died from a political perspective it's kind of interesting especially when you factor in the early '70s. Norman Osborn is wealthy and Peter is poor. Osborn in response to stock market falling and so a spoke in his comfortable lifestyle and privilege decides to smite the working-class kid who's disrupted his life and he makes an example of Gwen for going outside her class. I mean there's something about Green Goblin that kind of embodies an American impunity in that story, he can fly above everyone below and bomb the hell out of them and get away with it. There's that bit of dialogue in ASM#122 where Goblin says "She's dead..." and Peter tells him, "She didn't just die...you killed her." It's kind of like how politicians euphemistically disguise or downplay violence, like "collateral damage" and so on.

    In ASM#122, the one guy Peter turns to for help in bringing down Norman is Robbie Robertson, an African-American, who helps Spider-Man track Osborn's many warehouses. So it has this political subtext about working-class and middle-class America banding together to bring down a corrupt white industrialist who thinks he's above the law. And Conway in that era was a real leftie, and his run had a lot of sympathetic portrayal of left-wing protests, so while that might not have been his intent, in terms of subtext it might have slipped in subconsciously.

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    You are correct. There are basically four types of people who trash ASM 121. 1: Those who prefer Gwen. I am sure Emma Stone versus Kirsten Dunst plays a role in this. This does not bother me. As an MJ supporter, I have said it before and I will say it again, I prefer Stone to Dunst. Why? I think Dunst is too nice and sweet when it comes to MJ. The best MJ ( in my opinion) is one who can be feisty and fiery)....
    Fair enough. I actually prefer Dunst's MJ over Stone's Gwen, due to finding the former to being a better-written character (liked that she had her own subplots and changed over the course of the movies). I found Stone really wasted as Gwen, due to the paper-thin writing of the character. Given that I think that Gwen's popularity owes a lot to Stone's charm and ability to do a lot with practically nothing, I can't help but wonder how far the character could have gone had Stone been given a fleshed-out character instead of a plot device. (All IMHO.)

    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    4: Those who want High School or man-child Pete and do not want him growing up and being with MJ or anyone. Those are the ones who use "Poor Gwen" as an tool to hold Pete back and love comics like BND.
    Kinda ironic on two counts; Firstly, Gwen was part of Peter's college era, not his high school one in the old comics. Secondly, Ultimate Spider-Man, one of the more popular high school stories, not only used MJ as Peter's leading lady, but also rode really hard on the idea that she was "the one," no contest.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Yeah, fair point to be made there as well I'm sure. In fact, I'm reminded of The Cat #1, which came out a year before Spider-Man #121 did, in which Tigra's husband Bill Nelson (who's arguably less endearing than Gwen) gets shot and killed trying to save her, though it's her that's the one that gets to go on to do hero work herself after sorting out her life.

    Nuh uh, thatís a male civilian being killed and according to woke rules itís not a fridging, because men canít be fridged, only women. [/heavy sarcasm]

  6. #66
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    But seriously, if Gwen is considered a “fridging” then you have to argue the above is a fridging.

    Or George Stacy.

    Or Uncle Ben.

    Or for Batman, Jason Todd.

    All their deaths served to make the main character sad and drive them to fight crime harder (and you could argue if you take that line of reasoning, robbed them of their agency as individuals). And yet, I never see them included in a list of “fridgings” because they’re men, so I find the argument a complete sexist double-standard within itself.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Nuh uh, that’s a male civilian being killed and according to woke rules it’s not a fridging, because men can’t be fridged, only women. [/heavy sarcasm]
    There are some male examples of fridging:
    -- Jason Todd's death was considered fridging. Frank Miller himself called it a very cynical thing to do. Likewise, many people consider the number of awful things happening to Batman sidekicks, male and female, to make Batman into a bigger a--hole to the next sidekick/team-mates to be examples of toxic masculinity. Since these deaths exist to make Batman into an a-hole but justified in being one.
    -- Jimmy Olsen's death in Zack Snyder's BVS : DOJ is also considered another one.

    Likewise, LGBT activists have always denounced portrayal of gay couples, male and female, where bad stuff happens to one of the partners and so on and the fact that Hollywood finds it hard/impossible to imagine a healthy and uncomplicated romance in the same gender.

    But even outside of that...I think you are neglecting the level of inequality between men and women that prevents categories or events being equivalent from one gender over another. Most superheroes are male and in general women are often civilian love interests for men. The level of power dynamics in terms of where the narrative is centered and how the story is told and the demographic it's geared too (young adolescent boys for the most part) mean that women are far more likely to be, and far more often are, fridged than men are.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Fair enough. I actually prefer Dunst's MJ over Stone's Gwen, due to finding the former to being a better-written character (liked that she had her own subplots and changed over the course of the movies). I found Stone really wasted as Gwen, due to the paper-thin writing of the character. Given that I think that Gwen's popularity owes a lot to Stone's charm and ability to do a lot with practically nothing, I can't help but wonder how far the character could have gone had Stone been given a fleshed-out character instead of a plot device. (All IMHO.)
    Agreed on all counts.

    Kinda ironic on two counts; Firstly, Gwen was part of Peter's college era, not his high school one in the old comics. Secondly, Ultimate Spider-Man, one of the more popular high school stories, not only used MJ as Peter's leading lady, but also rode really hard on the idea that she was "the one," no contest.
    Apparently in some interview (a person on Crawlspace forums told me this) with the now-defunct Wizard Magazine around 2007 or so, Bendis was interviewed and he apparently dismissed classic Gwen saying that people forgotten how much of a jerk she was and that most of them haven't read the old issues. So I think Bendis making Ultimate Gwen a knife-nut goth girl was his way of having fun with that. It must have been, "Suppose I take someone as nasty and unpleasant as Gwen, have that acknowledged as a real problem, and put her in a realistic high school...who would she be...ah yes Goth girl!"

    I remember so many people saying that Raimi's MJ is really Gwen, or Ultimate Mary Jane is like Gwen...but when you read the opinions of Bendis and Raimi they are both open about how much they disliked the OG Gwen Stacy. What both Raimi's MJ and Bendis' MJ do is distill the character development and revelations MJ eventually undergo in a shorter time. And Bendis in Comic-Creators on Spider-Man gushed about how Raimi captured the Peter-MJ love story in Spider-Man 1.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 11-15-2019 at 08:27 PM.

  8. #68
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    But seriously, if Gwen is considered a “fridging” then you have to argue the above is a fridging.

    Or George Stacy.

    Or Uncle Ben.

    Or for Batman, Jason Todd.

    All their deaths served to make the main character sad and drive them to fight crime harder (and you could argue if you take that line of reasoning, robbed them of their agency as individuals). And yet, I never see them included in a list of “fridgings” because they’re men, so I find the argument a complete sexist double-standard within itself.
    Yeah, John Bartol wrote "Dead Men Defrosting", an article in which he attempted to argue that when male heroes are killed or altered, they are more typically returned to their status quo. He even made a list as well:

    “Superman - Dies, comes back, inspires new heroes, changes powers, splits into two, gets normal powers back, and somewhere in all that gets married.

    Batman - Back is broken after a grueling physical and psychological battle with his arch enemies. Takes some time off, heals, and comes back to continue his crusade for Gotham.

    Azrael - Goes insane, gets better, earns the Bat's trust, and is now one of the Bat family.

    Hal Jordan as Green Lantern - Goes nuts, murders millions, tries to reboot Creation, commits a noble, self-sacrificing suicide to save the Earth. Meanwhile, the mantle is picked up by another (Kyle Rayner).

    Barry Allen as the Flash - Dies heroically in the Crisis, and the mantle gets picked up by another (Wally West).

    Spider-Man - Typically has had a bunch of Everyman problems. Gets cloned, has a bunch of family challenges, yet, too, is returned to the status quo. Note that poor Spidey's female set, from Gwen Stacy to Aunt May, are WiR A-list victims!

    Captain America - Despite the usual challenges of the Super Soldier's after-effects, he's been stripped of his mantle, lost faith in America, been hunted by the very government he serves, and still comes on back better than ever and fighting for the American Dream. Go Cap!

    Nova - Creator Erik Larsen correctly points out the fact that Nova has, indeed, lost his powers twice. Nova has also had his powers returned to him just as often, and with three attempts at a solo book to show for it, and he just keeps coming back with more power, a better status in the Cosmic Defender pecking order, and a bright, shiny bucket helmet!

    The Hulk - Maybe our most problematic Defrosted. Definitely has been put through the "ride hard, hang up wet" part of the Heroic Cycle, but despite deep psychological and power issues, several different incarnations, and few really questionable skin colors, just keeps coming. SMASH, Hulkie. SMASH ON!

    The men of the Fantastic Four - Pretty much same as they ever were, despite all sorts of trials and tribulations. Ben Grimm is our Defrosted poster child for this group, though...

    The men of the X-Men - The list, obviously, is long and distinguished, even after you take away the "feared and hated" aspect of their tortured mutant existence. With the exception on 'no adamantium' Wolvie (which we hear is going away anyway in favor of Full Metal Logan), they all get put through the ringer and get better. Cannonball/Sam Guthrie actually dies and comes back after Marvel reveals Sam is an External, an immortal mutant. Oh my. And let's face it, Scott and Charles started off, in our minds, with impediments, but have overcome them and/or lived with their burdens. But Beast has undergone changes in form, power levels and intelligence, all for the better, as has Angel, who loses his real wings, gets metal demon wings from Apocalypse, and eventually gets his real ones back. Nightcrawler, Colossus, the kids in the New Mutants (even CYPHER!) and Generation X... Their lot is a tough one, but goshdarnit, those mutant deformities and physical differences, shored up by Xavier's Dream, sure do build character. Just hope your mutant ability isn't to become an X-Woman. You'll be in for a Big Hurt...

    Livewire - Loses an arm, gets a bionic one, and keeps on LoSH'ing! [Author's Note: The Legion of Super-Heroes, truly a progressive team of the future, has a striking number of exceptions to both the WiR and DMD list, a topic my esteemed WiR collaborator, Rob, will be covering elsewhere at this site. Watch for it!]

    Nick Fury - Seemingly ageless like his good buddy Cap (due to the Infinity Formula or something? Let's check that miniseries!), he's been dead and on the mend as well several times, right? Has he taken his chair away from Sharon Carter yet?

    Wonder Man and the Vision - Marvel's Janus brothers, one the reflection of the other, both have had death experiences, losses of humanity, criminal forays for which they are forgiven, and even loved the same woman. Vision's been rebuilt as good as new how many times? And Wondy was just brought back as good as ionic energy new in Kurt Busiek's latest run of the Avengers.

    Iron Man - Old Tony's had a tough road, no doubt, continually living with the disease of alcoholism (for which he should be applauded) and for finding a way to overcome permanent paralysis through his inventive genius. Or was it because he had Bruce Wayne's private number in his Palm Pilot? Those rich guy crimefighters with bad backs have to stay together, don't you know? Anyway, a beautiful and complete recovery.

    Cyborg - One of two Titans on this list, Vic is a possibility as well. His initial condition/alterations came hand-in-hand with a power increase. Granted, he was constantly battling for his humanity (at least, from his own perspective) and when he went nuts recently after a jaunt in space, his "family" came to the rescue and now he's literally a shiny happy person in the new Titans title.

    Changeling - Ah, Gar. First he's purple, then he's green, but he's always his high-energy, sarcastic and teenage humor-spouting self no matter what animal he changes into. Of course, there was that whole incident with him assuming more and more monstrous shapes, but like his best friend Cyborg above, with the advent of the new Titans, he's a levelheaded hero making a comeback in Hollywood.

    Aquaman - Lost a hand, but got a neat multipurpose hook/harpoon in its place, some self-validation, and a quick-selling book in return. Erik Larsen recently gave him a "robotic" hand to bring our King of the Seven Seas back up to his full ten-fingered glory!

    Hawkman - After several different and conflicting continuity-wrecking and inconsistent retcons, our Thanagarian expat finally gets the respect he is due and... HAH! Made you look! Hawkman might as well be an honorary WiR for all the crap poor Katar has taken...“

  9. #69
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    That’s funny, because the first X-person to come back was none other than Jean Grey. Now she’s died and come back multiple times.

    I don’t have the time or inclination to make a similar exhaustive list of female heroines who have come back, but off the top of my head I can think of Elektra, the original Spider-Woman, Psylocke, Mantis, Sharon Carter, Mockingbird, Supergirl....

  10. #70
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    That’s funny, because the first X-person to come back was none other than Jean Grey. Now she’s died and come back multiple times.

    I don’t have the time or inclination to make a similar exhaustive list of female heroines who have come back, but off the top of my head I can think of Elektra, the original Spider-Woman, Psylocke, Mantis, Sharon Carter, Mockingbird, Supergirl....
    Yeah, I think that Elektra would be a big exception. Not sure if Frank Miller was compelled to kill her off when he did in 1982 out of being inspired by Gwen Stacy's death in 1973, but I think that two big reasons why people don't seem as quick to condemn Frank Miller of fridging is 1., she was considered to be an interesting character from the start despite her relatively fewer appearances, and 2., she was brought back about a year later in a story that focused on her strengths. Definitely a great character in her own right that more writers in the late 80s and 90s could have learned from.

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 11-15-2019 at 10:51 PM.

  11. #71
    Oblio Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I think the idea people had about Gwen's death being this great event and so on is because of Kurt Busiek-Alex Ross' MARVELS.
    Nah. It was considered one of the seminal moments of Marvel history long before we got there.

    It had been referred back to many times, and held an importance in Spidey history second only to the origin.

    kdb
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    Nah. It was considered one of the seminal moments of Marvel history long before we got there.

    It had been referred back to many times, and held an importance in Spidey history second only to the origin.

    kdb
    Wow, from the man himself!

    And yeah, having read Spidey comics in the 80s and early 90s, her death has always cast a big shadow over the Spidey books. It was referred to countless times pre-MARVELS.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Wow, from the man himself!

    And yeah, having read Spidey comics in the 80s and early 90s, her death has always cast a big shadow over the Spidey books. It was referred to countless times pre-MARVELS.
    It was referred to a fair number of times definitely but the particular idea of "Gwen's death marking the end of the Silver Age" and so on, maybe people said that before, but it went mainstream with Marvels, published in 1994. Conway himself said that when he wrote the story in the '70s he had no idea it was marking a big turning point and in fact terms like Silver Age or Bronze Age weren't available to him or anyone else at the time. He said in Comics Creators on Spider-Man and elsewhere, that it was Marvels that made him realize how big an impact it had.

    I mean in the '70s, the biggest Spider-Man comic was Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man (also written by Conway) which brought in a lot of people outside the comics' business. I mean Don King, boxing promoter who didn't read comics, saw what a big fuss Superman vs. TASM was and that led him, Muhammad Ali and DC to do Superman vs. Muhammad Ali.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    The readers are the ones who have preferred MJ down through the years. Why? Because she is a great character with many layers to her, while other " Parker Women" did not have this (not just Gwen), One thing that always appealed to me about MJ is you saw character growth.
    Mary Jane didn't have layers and didn't grow as a character in the 1960s, so there was clearly a different reason for her popularity at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Mary Jane didn't have layers and didn't grow as a character in the 1960s, so there was clearly a different reason for her popularity at the time.
    One reason for her popularity was she was DIFFERENT then the usual Parker supporting cast ( better looking then Betty, Gwen and Liz? Yes no doubt about it ( which is why she was feared the first time Gwen etc saw her), but she was much conversational then the cool blondes like Gwen and Liz. Another is how Aunt May believed in her and knew she would be a good match for Peter.

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