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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    Gwen Stacy is the only character Peter dated to come from a higher social class than him.
    No she wasn't. There was also Felicia Hardy.

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No she wasn't. There was also Felicia Hardy.
    She seemed to abandon her class.

    But Liz Allen did seem wealthier.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Fridging happened Long before ASM 121. In the 1941 movie: 'I Wake Up Screaming' ( a very inaccurate title like 'The Night Gwen Stacy Died,), a girl named Vikki played by Carole Landis was murdered, which was a plot device so her sister Jill ( played by Betty Grable) could end up with Frankie Christopher (Victor Mature). I never hear complaints about that movie or Laura a 1944 movie that featured you guessed it. Fridging. What happened? Diane Redfern was murdered so Laura ( Gene Tierney) can end up with Detective Mark McPherson (Dana Andrews). This debate is not about fridging but.using ASM 121 as a tool to justify Pete not growing up and remaining alone because his true love died. A point Revolutionary Jack alluded to. If someone thinks Pete is better off in HS or as a Man-Child so be it, but do not use Gwen's death as a tool to try and justify that position.
    The debate is about whether or not TNGSD has aged well as a story. Fridging absolutely is a part of the conversation.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    That she was, which I didn't deny it, just that on the 80+ issues she was around before dying, for most of it, she was treating Peter well.



    I'm well aware that Peter and Gwen's relationship was shit since it was the typical lazy romance where the characters involved just say "I love you" and don't show any reasons to explain why they love each other, nor do they have enough interactions to show without saying, so all we have is a boring/bland romance where Gwen is just a generic female love interest, but either way, this doesn't have much to do with whether or not Gwen is a shit person, it just pointed out that she was a bland character.



    She's definitely treated by many like a trophy wife, but I doubt too many people even know/noticed she was from a higher class than him, it's mostly just because she died and gets treated like this saint of a love interest.



    I seriously don't care about her race, sex or how hot she is, I'm looking at her situation, where her father died recently, which made her want revenge on Spider-Man, a figure who was already tormenting her for a while and then caused the death of her father, she's an idiot for trusting Bullit so much just because he was a cop who knew her father (And she leaves it at that, she doesn't know what her father thought of him), and her wanting revenge so much is wrong, and Lee/Romita not showing her thoughts on Bullit once the truth about him came out was just another of their laziness when writing her, and there was plenty of laziness. But the thing is that, being in a situation that makes one too emotional will cloud your judgement, and in her case it was grief and hatred, not that this excuses bad actions, but it makes them understandable, and even then, we only see her supporting Bullit because he promissed to bring Spidey to justice.

    So yeah, she was emotional, and an idiot, and if she had actually committed a crime, regardless of her emotional state, I'd keep it in mind and mention it occasionally as one of her traits.
    I'd be willing to take the Sam Bullit thing a lot more seriously if I didn't see people defending Jameson despite him being an antagonist to Spider-Man for far longer than Gwen and having gone to much greater extremes. Hell, considering that Spider-Man was partly responsible for her father's death, Gwen's got more reason to hate him than Jameson.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    No she wasn't. There was also Felicia Hardy.
    Felicia Hardy is the daughter of a cat burglar, i.e. daughter of a criminal. In class terms, Felicia is technically on a lower class than Peter. Criminals might be rich and own stuff and so on but until they go legit, they will always be lower in class terms. The drug cartels of Mexico earn a lot of money and so on, but in class terms they are still lowest of the low. That's why El Chapo got sent to jail while the Pharma companies behind the opiod crises got a slap on the wrist. The currently unfashionable Martin Scorsese made a movie The Wolf of Wall Street whose final scene was all about how people from a sufficiently high social class don't ever face real justice like when the corrupt stockbroker goes to a jail at the end that's functionally indistinguishable from a country club.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    But Liz Allen did seem wealthier.
    Liz Allan and Peter never dated, leave alone had a long-term relationship. Peter's first relationship was with Betty Brant, a working-class girl who had to work rather than go to high school (which was a thing in the '60s). Liz Allan seems to have been middle-class at best. Her dad apparently owned a local Dinner Club. Midtown High seems to have been a school for attracting low-to-middle income students. So Liz Allan and Flash might have been big fish in small pond.

    When Peter went to ESU on scholarship, there was definitely a sense of working-class kid in the world of the real rich. He gets hazed by Harry Osborn and Gwen. Flash came in on a football scholarship. He's also working-class, his father was a cop, i.e.a beat cop. And both Peter and Flash were the only Midtown kids in ESU, having come through specifically on scholarships. Liz Allan didn't go to ESU. IN fact she dropped out of the books for some 100 issues or so after ASM#30, returning after Gwen died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'd be willing to take the Sam Bullit thing a lot more seriously if I didn't see people defending Jameson despite him being an antagonist to Spider-Man for far longer than Gwen and having gone to much greater extremes.
    Jameson in fact gets a scene in ASM#92, where upon being presented with evidence of Bullitt's ties to white supremacy, he has him kicked out of the Bugle. Jameson is given a moment to separate his vindictiveness to Spider-Man from actual ideological convictions...Gwen was given no such moment in the comic.

    So this argument is total whataboutism.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 11-16-2019 at 09:11 AM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Felicia Hardy is the daughter of a cat burglar, i.e. daughter of a criminal. In class terms, Felicia is technically on a lower class than Peter. Criminals might be rich and own stuff and so on but until they go legit, they will always be lower in class terms. The drug cartels of Mexico earn a lot of money and so on, but in class terms they are still lowest of the low. That's why El Chapo got sent to jail while the Pharma companies behind the opiod crises got a slap on the wrist. The currently unfashionable Martin Scorsese made a movie The Wolf of Wall Street whose final scene was all about how people from a sufficiently high social class don't ever face real justice like when the corrupt stockbroker goes to a jail at the end that's functionally indistinguishable from a country club.
    Felicia, prior to the retcon in Evil That Men Do, only became a cat burglar to break her father out of prison. He wasn't an active thief when she and Peter were dating and her mother was shown or at least implied to be a wealthy socialite herself so not all the money they had came from Walter's thefts. Felicia's reaction to Peter's modest apartment clearly shows how different they are in class.




    Jameson in fact gets a scene in ASM#92, where upon being presented with evidence of Bullitt's ties to white supremacy, he has him kicked out of the Bugle. Jameson is given a moment to separate his vindictiveness to Spider-Man from actual ideological convictions...Gwen was given no such moment in the comic.

    So this argument is total whataboutism.
    Gwen didn't even know he was a white supremacist. All she knew was that her dad didn't like him. And considering that Jameson is a news editor, he has more responsibility to research people he gets in business with than a teenage girl who's grieving her father's death.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Felicia, prior to the retcon in Evil That Men Do, only became a cat burglar to break her father out of prison.
    So she's a crook breaking her crook dad out of the slammer. Yep, I can totally see how she's an uptown girl for ol'Pete.

    He wasn't an active thief when she and Peter were dating
    When you steal stuff, don't turn that in, and live off the moolah...you might not be an "active crook" in terms of continuing to rob people, but you are still a crook. A lot of the old mafia bosses are still around living it up in Long Island mansions. Maybe they don't order hits as much as they used to in the bad old days but they are still criminals nonetheless.

    ...and her mother was shown or at least implied to be a wealthy socialite herself so not all the money they had came from Walter's thefts.
    Or it seems that she lived it large off Walter Hardy's stash and bought expensive stuff, and passed on to Felicia a liking for the fine things in life. It's typical Mafia housewife behavior.

    Felicia's reaction to Peter's modest apartment clearly shows how different they are in class.
    I think you misread that scene. In Bill Mantlo's story in Spectacular Spider-Man #86-87, Felicia Hardy assumes Spider-Man's a glamorous cool older guy. This was something established by Roger Stern in ASM#246 where she thinks underneath the mask, Spider-Man is Cary Grant from To Catch a Thief (i.e. a glamorous cat burglar who lives it large and has adventures). Mantlo gave the payoff for that, in that issue where Peter takes her to his apartment and rather than a fancy lair, it turns out to be a student apartment on low-rent and Peter is an ordinary grad school kid.

    It's not so much about class as about Felicia having unrealistic and bizarre fantasies that Peter could never live up to. In Freudian terms, you can see it as Felicia fixating on a guy she thinks are just like her father and disappointed that Peter's not like how she imagined her Dad to be (her dad Walter was a crook who bought her fine stuff while posing as a "travelling salesman" after all). It's also part of Felicia's overall issues of living in a fantasy world and not connected to reality, which Roger Stern established as a major aspect of her psychological makeup in "The Cat Came Back".

    But anyway...Felicia is not someone from a higher class than Peter. She was the daughter of a criminal Dad who was living out of his means until the other shoe dropped and his daughter, out of misplaced idolization for daddy, followed in his footsteps.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So she's a crook breaking her crook dad out of the slammer. Yep, I can totally see how she's an uptown girl for ol'Pete.



    When you steal stuff, don't turn that in, and live off the moolah...you might not be an "active crook" in terms of continuing to rob people, but you are still a crook. A lot of the old mafia bosses are still around living it up in Long Island mansions. Maybe they don't order hits as much as they used to in the bad old days but they are still criminals nonetheless.



    Or it seems that she lived it large off Walter Hardy's stash and bought expensive stuff, and passed on to Felicia a liking for the fine things in life. It's typical Mafia housewife behavior.



    I think you misread that scene. In Bill Mantlo's story in Spectacular Spider-Man #86-87, Felicia Hardy assumes Spider-Man's a glamorous cool older guy. This was something established by Roger Stern in ASM#246 where she thinks underneath the mask, Spider-Man is Cary Grant from To Catch a Thief (i.e. a glamorous cat burglar who lives it large and has adventures). Mantlo gave the payoff for that, in that issue where Peter takes her to his apartment and rather than a fancy lair, it turns out to be a student apartment on low-rent and Peter is an ordinary grad school kid.

    It's not so much about class as about Felicia having unrealistic and bizarre fantasies that Peter could never live up to. In Freudian terms, you can see it as Felicia fixating on a guy she thinks are just like her father and disappointed that Peter's not like how she imagined her Dad to be (her dad Walter was a crook who bought her fine stuff while posing as a "travelling salesman" after all). It's also part of Felicia's overall issues of living in a fantasy world and not connected to reality, which Roger Stern established as a major aspect of her psychological makeup in "The Cat Came Back".

    But anyway...Felicia is not someone from a higher class than Peter. She was the daughter of a criminal Dad who was living out of his means until the other shoe dropped and his daughter, out of misplaced idolization for daddy, followed in his footsteps.
    We are not talking about the wife and daughter of a two-bit mugger whose scores barely kept their bellies full for one day. The source of their wealth does not erase the clear differences in class.

  9. #84
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    [QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4690692]Felicia Hardy is the daughter of a cat burglar, i.e. daughter of a criminal. In class terms, Felicia is technically on a lower class than Peter. Criminals might be rich and own stuff and so on but until they go legit, they will always be lower in class terms. The drug cartels of Mexico earn a lot of money and so on, but in class terms they are still lowest of the low. That's why El Chapo got sent to jail while the Pharma companies behind the opiod crises got a slap on the wrist. The currently unfashionable Martin Scorsese made a movie The Wolf of Wall Street whose final scene was all about how people from a sufficiently high social class don't ever face real justice like when the corrupt stockbroker goes to a jail at the end that's functionally indistinguishable from a country club.



    Liz Allan and Peter never dated, leave alone had a long-term relationship. Peter's first relationship was with Betty Brant, a working-class girl who had to work rather than go to high school (which was a thing in the '60s). Liz Allan seems to have been middle-class at best. Her dad apparently owned a local Dinner Club. Midtown High seems to have been a school for attracting low-to-middle income students. So Liz Allan and Flash might have been big fish in small pond.

    When Peter went to ESU on scholarship, there was definitely a sense of working-class kid in the world of the real rich. He gets hazed by Harry Osborn and Gwen. Flash came in on a football scholarship. He's also working-class, his father was a cop, i.e.a beat cop. And both Peter and Flash were the only Midtown kids in ESU, having come through specifically on scholarships. Liz Allan didn't go to ESU. IN fact she dropped out of the books for some 100 issues or so after ASM#30, returning after Gwen died.



    Jameson in fact gets a scene in ASM#92, where upon being presented with evidence of Bullitt's ties to white supremacy, he has him kicked out of the Bugle. Jameson is given a moment to separate his vindictiveness to Spider-Man from actual ideological convictions...Gwen was given no such moment in the comic.
    I agree that Gwen can be given a pass for Sam Bullett, because of his hatred of Spider-Man, and being upset over her dad's death, and thus she was not evil and ended up in Hell (which is why I do not think she is Kindred), but she was likely NOT to be the one for Pete. Why? She could not accept him as Spider-Man ( even before ASM 90).Conversely, Felicia cannot not accept the Peter Parker part of Spider-Man. There is only one person ( as of now) who can handle the Spider and the man: MJ.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    We are not talking about the wife and daughter of a two-bit mugger whose scores barely kept their bellies full for one day. The source of their wealth does not erase the clear differences in class.
    There's no class distinctions to be made between them. One's a successful crook, the other's an unsuccessful crook. Your mugger isn't stealing the right kind of loot, either because he's too dumb to know about the real score, or lacks the networking and connections to get in with the people looting the big score.

  11. #86
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=NC_Yankee;4691013]
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I agree that Gwen can be given a pass for Sam Bullett, because of his hatred of Spider-Man, and being upset over her dad's death, and thus she was not evil and ended up in Hell (which is why I do not think she is Kindred), but she was likely NOT to be the one for Pete. Why? She could not accept him as Spider-Man ( even before ASM 90).Conversely, Felicia cannot not accept the Peter Parker part of Spider-Man. There is only one person ( as of now) who can handle the Spider and the man: MJ.
    I recall that MJ stating when she revealed suddenly she knew Peter was Spider-man:
    "MJ: You don't have to make up another one of your phony excuses, Peter! Not now—! I know the truth! The REAL truth!
    Peter: What are you talking about?
    MJ: I've known your secret for years! Up until today, I always thought I could cope with it if I ever had to experience it firsthand — but I can't! I can't—! I just can't cope with the fact that Peter Parker is secretly Spider-Man."

    MJ saying "I can''t" during her own reveal to Peter seems to show that all the woman in Peter's life had issues and difficulty being able to be forefront with sudden knowledge that shifts things drastically from a double identity and secrets. But that would make them human which is good. "I can't! I can't"

    Plus when ask to be married MJ turned him down I think the first time.
    MJ had a advantage over Gwen and Felicia by the recon that she always knew. When MJ discovered Peter was Spider-man apparently she never met him AS a person beforehand. She also was presented as a danger chaser wanting to go to where the Rhino was when she first met met Peter (before recon because she like going where danger was and then after recon to help give Peter a excuse to be there) so I'm certain in that regard help influence her to stick by Peter. By knowing Peter was Spider-man before she knew him as a person and chasing after danger in her early years would help ease things vs being given a major reveal and shock from a person you thought you knew and have to by force of the major moment process everything while MJ had days/years.

    Currently Felicia and Peter seems to have a good standing agian and Felicia thankful that Peter Re-Outed himself to her taking it well (when I enter the world of comics she was going under that Queenpin stuff so she's in a better area with Spider-man/Peter then she was a few years ago).

    In Clone Conspiracy it can be debatable if the Gwen there is a count of resurrection by science (the situation with the X-men series and how the Spider-man series handles and tells us how to handle and process thinking of born or reborn by science is different) or at least a representative reliable person to see possibly how version one Gwen might of handle things (also based on the writers of these characters and time periods they are written in and culture). First not taking it well in the moment but then left to think about it, have a talk with Peter, and then acceptance and better standing of the facts.

    Thus it seems a common process for all three women were: shock or unable to handle the sudden change or coping of the shift and reveals impacting them instantly due to being human (being given the news or revealing it).

    For Gwen it was never told to her by Peter and she only overheard it while she was disabled and attacked during a difficult time thus she got the shortest end of the stick here of reveals not being revealed to her by Peter, already having emotional attachments to Peter whom she trusted, and in in a area or situation that would allow time to think but hurt in every way possible during a war zone.

    For MJ she had no emotional attachments when she by chance only discovered the secret, time to process a bit, and liked danger. Then she got to know the man himself, got in deep but also found that danger affecting people she cares about, had trouble starting a tight relationship due to family history infuncing her, and when it came time she though she be ready but reveals she's having problems now coping with the knowledge and acceptance of Peter and SPider-man being one and the same. Then later talked about it and her past and got to a good place.

    Felecia experience things differently from Gwen and MJ falling for Spider-man and interacting with him first with the different preservatives. But the results went the same way. Reveal and unable to process the shift and later got to a better place with the truth.

    All three basically had their own problems with this instant double identities and secrets kept from them or having them but when having time to process in a healthy means even if it means being alone to think, then talk it out, then lastly be a a good/better place with it all and now part of their life.

    Aunt May I think when she gave her own reveals handled it better then the three lovers of Peter/Spider-man but according to her she discovered and worked it all out emotionally and mentally before she gave her own revel in the past. 1610 Aunt May reacted diffneritly and negativity til she accepted and welcomed that part of Peter's life.
    In Spider-Verse Aunt May knew and made teck for Peter then Miles it seems (accepting as Madame Web of the movie verse) but we didn't know the details of how and everything while his wife MJ knew about Peter being Spider-man but unknown what that Peter revealed to her about the Kingpin which we know Aunt May did have knowledge of from the Spider base.
    In 'Spider-man loves Mary Jane' that version was never told that Peter is Spider-man by Peter or discovers it but that version of Gwen was told and kept it a secret even from MJ who asked her which hurt MJ.
    All versions of these characters may or might not have information and how they process it shifts by writers and events.

  12. #87
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelJD View Post
    MJ had a advantage over Gwen and Felicia by the recon that she always knew. When MJ discovered Peter was Spider-man apparently she never met him AS a person beforehand. She also was presented as a danger chaser wanting to go to where the Rhino was when she first met met Peter (before recon because she like going where danger was and then after recon to help give Peter a excuse to be there) so I'm certain in that regard help influence her to stick by Peter. By knowing Peter was Spider-man before she knew him as a person and chasing after danger in her early years would help ease things vs being given a major reveal and shock from a person you thought you knew and have to by force of the major moment process everything while MJ had days/years.
    This idea is totally ridiculous and pernicious i.e. "MJ didn't know Peter as a person". The minute Peter puts on a mask and becomes Spider-Man and fights crime and lives a double life where a part of it is spent engaged in violent combat with supervillains an other criminals...he ceases to be Peter Parker the person.

    You are what you do.

    Since Peter puts on a mask and fights crime as Spider-Man, he is Spider-Man. Likewise, since Spider-Man spends a part of the day as Peter Parker immersed in mundane stuff, he is Peter Parker. There is no such thing as "plain ol' Peter". If there was, then Peter would not use his powers and fight crime.

    What that adds up to is that neither Betty Brant, nor Gwen Stacy knew the real Peter Parker. And the idea of knowing "Peter as a person" and so on is a petty slide of the real issue.

    What MJ knew, as established in Untold Tales #16, and in Parallel Lives, is the divide between Peter on the outside and Spider-Man. She knew Peter or was retconned into knowing Peter lying to himself and to everyone around him, much as she was doing. She alone and understood that part of him entirely. The neurotic behavior, the constant going back and forth and so on.

  13. #88
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This idea is totally ridiculous and pernicious i.e. "MJ didn't know Peter as a person". The minute Peter puts on a mask and becomes Spider-Man and fights crime and lives a double life where a part of it is spent engaged in violent combat with supervillains an other criminals...he ceases to be Peter Parker the person.

    You are what you do.

    Since Peter puts on a mask and fights crime as Spider-Man, he is Spider-Man. Likewise, since Spider-Man spends a part of the day as Peter Parker immersed in mundane stuff, he is Peter Parker. There is no such thing as "plain ol' Peter". If there was, then Peter would not use his powers and fight crime.

    What that adds up to is that neither Betty Brant, nor Gwen Stacy knew the real Peter Parker. And the idea of knowing "Peter as a person" and so on is a petty slide of the real issue.

    What MJ knew, as established in Untold Tales #16, and in Parallel Lives, is the divide between Peter on the outside and Spider-Man. She knew Peter or was retconned into knowing Peter lying to himself and to everyone around him, much as she was doing. She alone and understood that part of him entirely. The neurotic behavior, the constant going back and forth and so on.
    Peter Parker is a person. Now he is Spider-man and Peter Parker. He is both. MJ NEVER talked to Peter before when she discovered this secret of a person at the time she didn't meet. She got to discover that this man named Peter was also the one known as Spider-man capable to do amazing superhuman things (and at the time he wasn't a superhero but a wrestler) but that was it. In the news she probably read about his superhero lifestyle then got to know him as the other side of this one person 'Peter Parker' interacting with him and his two personas.

    If I went to a McDonalds and saw a woman named Katie working there I wouldn't know her as a person both her worker side and daily life simply because I looked at her for a few seconds. Humans don't have that magical powers (though we often jump to conclusions and think we know some people judging others instantly from a maybe first encounter or first newsfeed and image of somebody).
    The moment MJ truly began interacting with and spent time with Peter did she get involved and know him better for it and having inside knowledge to a secret allowed a view of things limiting for others that wasn't open to the same knowledge.

    Tell me then what did 616 MJ know about either Peter or Spider-man before she saw him being Spider-man? As far as I know only what maybe her own Aunt told her but never met him and that he was a wrestler.

    "neither Betty Brant, nor Gwen Stacy knew the real Peter Parker." Peter never told them nor did they have inside knowledge. Aunt May had to reveal she knew and so did MJ and even Captain Stacy (During Stan Lee's 1960's-70's writings only Captain Stacy was revealed to have known about Peter's secret at his end). The one time Peter did come out to the others first during Stan Lee writings it was instantly wiped away before issues could happen where each of the characters could be shown to process the information in time and in maybe different ways.
    Later Peter would reveal himself to Felicia who didn't take it well the first time but in time/issues and other writers would be in a better place with the truth. In Symbiote Spider-man Felicia and Peter were dating with full knowledge of the two personas and Felicia 2nd time getting 'the reveal' she took it alot better having secretly the mental and emotional process done and over just needing to be unlocked agian with trust from Peter which she was happy to receive.

    Jameson has had two reveals himself where also the 2nd time around he took it far better. 2nd time around Jameson knew Peter as Peter first and importantly Peter revealing himself openly to Jameson and talk about it as a sign of trust which helped affect him in a positive way to the truth and reveal. Jameson got to partially know Peter a bit in his life but had misconceptions about Spider-man who the two are the same person but different ways the two sides of the same person might be present to the public for different reasons. Learning the truth shocked him but since he knew a side of Peter as a person beforehand and they had a talk it helped kill his own misconceptions he had to his Spider-man side vs if he never knew any bit of Peter Parker at all as a truly good person, wasn't given that trust and now responsibility of the knowledge by Peter, and didn't have a talk about anything.

    The people in his life needed that trust (which can help as trust is also a sign of honest respect), accurate information vs misconceptions, and knowing him in some personal form by a bit of honest interactions. Then time for a process of information and all leading to a honest talk/communication. That seems how it goes down for the ones that discover and eventually take it better then they were at first time discovery or reveals.

  14. #89
    Oblio Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It was referred to a fair number of times definitely but the particular idea of "Gwen's death marking the end of the Silver Age" and so on, maybe people said that before, but it went mainstream with Marvels, published in 1994.
    The idea of Gwen's death as the in-universe end of the Silver Age, yeah, we made that up.

    The idea that it was a huge moment already -- which is part of why we picked it -- that's still true.

    Conway himself said that when he wrote the story in the '70s he had no idea it was marking a big turning point and in fact terms like Silver Age or Bronze Age weren't available to him or anyone else at the time.
    Of course they weren't -- that's the kind of thing that gets understood (and named) afterward. When Julie Schwartz edited SHOWCASE #4, he had no idea that was marking a turning point either. Nor did Lee and Kirby know that FANTASTIC FOUR 1 would usher in a whole new era for Marvel. They were just trying to make good stories that people would buy.

    For that matter, Alex and I had no idea MARVELS would be the success it was.

    You realize the impact things have after they hit.

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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    But Liz Allen did seem wealthier.
    Liz's dad owned hotels; she was definitely from a higher socio-economic status than the Parkers.

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