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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    Liz's dad owned hotels; she was definitely from a higher socio-economic status than the Parkers.

    kdb
    Yeah but she and Peter never dated or had a relationship, so Gwen would still be the only girl Peter dated to come from a higher social class, and Liz always seemed poorer than Gwen anyway.

  2. #92
    Oblio Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah but she and Peter never dated or had a relationship, so Gwen would still be the only girl Peter dated to come from a higher social class, and Liz always seemed poorer than Gwen anyway.
    They didn't have an ongoing relationship, but I think they dated once or twice.

    [Had I stayed on UNTOLD TALES, we'd have seen Liz in her long interregnum, because I wanted to establish that she went to Metro U, as a way of getting the supporting characters Kirby created for the Torch in college and then barely used into UNTOLD TALES.]

    Liz's family was probably wealthier than Gwen's, but Captain Stacy looked really patrician, and I don't remember if we ever saw Liz's parents or living situation until after Mr. Allen went bankrupt.

    kdb
    Last edited by Kurt Busiek; 11-16-2019 at 09:56 PM.
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  3. #93
    World's Greatest Hero blackspidey2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    They didn't have an ongoing relationship, but I think they dated once or twice.

    [Had I stayed on UNTOLD TALES, we'd have seen Liz in her long interregnum, because I wanted to establish that she went to Metro U, as a way of getting the supporting characters Kirby created for the Torch in college and then barely used into UNTOLD TALES.]

    Liz's family was probably wealthier than Gwen's, but Captain Stacy looked really patrician, and I don't remember if we ever saw Liz's parents or living situation until after Mr. Allen went bankrupt.

    kdb
    A bit off topic, but since I haven't seen you on these boards before, I just want to mention how much I loved your Untold Tales of Spider-Man work; it's my favorite revisiting of Spidey's high school days to date!
    "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

  4. #94
    Oblio Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackspidey2099 View Post
    A bit off topic, but since I haven't seen you on these boards before, I just want to mention how much I loved your Untold Tales of Spider-Man work; it's my favorite revisiting of Spidey's high school days to date!
    Thanks! It was a lot of fun to do, and I was lucky to work with both Pat Olliffe and Tom Brevoort.
    Visit www.busiek.com—for all your Busiek needs!

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    Thanks! It was a lot of fun to do, and I was lucky to work with both Pat Olliffe and Tom Brevoort.
    I also loved it. It filled a real niche for those kind of stories at the time, when everything else was so grim, gritty, extreme and convoluted. And I loved ‘Marvels’ too, of course. I read recently that editorial mandated that the scenes of Jonah in the 1940s had to be changed so it wasn’t specifically Jonah, which I thought was a ridiculous nitpick on their part.

  6. #96
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    Personally speaking, this is still my favorite Spider-Man story of all time, if not my favorite comic book of all time. The pacing, tension, action, writing and artwork are just as effective now as they were back in 1973. True, the dialogue isn't perfect and can have a dated '70s feel to it at times, but it wasn't distracting at all for me. Even today, Gwen Stacy's death along with Spider-Man's reaction to it is still very emotional and hard-hitting, as is his brutal beat-down of The Green Goblin afterward. The Goblin's accidental death by his own glider also still stands as one of the most memorable deaths of a supervillain that I've ever seen--even it was eventually undone. An unforgettable masterpiece of the superhero genre through and through.

  7. #97
    Condescending Member manymade1's Avatar
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    It works really well as an end of the era type story for Spider-Man. Especially when you consider the fact that the Green Goblin was basically Spider-Man's arch-enemy from his debut until this. It's actually pretty interesting that Green Goblin is seen as Peter's Joker, considering after this story he barely has a presence. Norman really made that much of an impact in a relatively short amount of time (When considering Spider-Man's long history) and this story basically solidified him as Spider-Man's arch-foe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Look, it's not unusual for something people like and is otherwise good having problematic legacy. Gwen's death is absolutely fridging, end of story. Everyone behind the scenes admitted she was an annoying character who had always been quite unpopular with readers. Even the story of her death isn't about her. It's about Peter, Norman and Mary Jane. Gwen Stacy wasn't given a proper sendoff in the comic where she died and nobody reading ASM#121-122 has a reason to think why she was so special to start with. This is often the main Gwen Stacy comic people read. And I think on that level it's a disservice to her.

    Another reason why The Night Gwen Stacy Died is flawed because people think that this story is some great romantic tragedy and akin to Superman failing to save Lois Lane or some nosh. Well it isn't.

    Gerry Conway: "While Gwen was his official girlfriend, for those of us who had followed the character from the very start, she didn't feel like she was that integral to the character...But to people who had been reading the book for the last five years, she was Lois Lane."

    In other words, it's a pretty manipulative comic. They were getting rid of an annoying supporting character but pretending as if they were making a real daring thing. The story doesn't work if you play it for romantic tragedy as that Emma Stone movie tried and failed to achieve. Ultimately the story is about Peter getting with MJ.
    Was Gwen Stacy unpopular at the time? That's surprising.

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manymade1 View Post
    Norman really made that much of an impact in a relatively short amount of time (When considering Spider-Man's long history) and this story basically solidified him as Spider-Man's arch-foe.
    Norman Osborn/Green Goblin is the Spider-Man villain with most appearances across 616 Continuity. And overall, he trails only Doctor Doom and Magneto in terms of most appearances by any marvel villain. He was the Spider-Man villain who made most appearances in the Lee-Ditko era as well.

    And as an amnesiac supporting character, he made many recurring appearances in the Lee-Romita era.

    Was Gwen Stacy unpopular at the time? That's surprising.
    Not to anyone who has read the actual Silver Age stories it isn't.

  9. #99
    Condescending Member manymade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Norman Osborn/Green Goblin is the Spider-Man villain with most appearances across 616 Continuity. And overall, he trails only Doctor Doom and Magneto in terms of most appearances by any marvel villain. He was the Spider-Man villain who made most appearances in the Lee-Ditko era as well.

    And as an amnesiac supporting character, he made many recurring appearances in the Lee-Romita era.
    Dang, I never knew that. I guess Dark Reign helped, since Norman was pretty much everywhere in that. To be honest, I feel like Lee (And I guess Conway with this story) were the only ones to really treat him as Spider-Man's greatest villain. Doc Ock's had way more instances of hindering Peter (I mean he was even the one to finally "kill" Peter), which is why it's surprising that Norman gets all the attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Not to anyone who has read the actual Silver Age stories it isn't.
    I personally didn't find her that annoying, especially compared to other silver age female characters. Women during the silver age were just written bad, in general. If Gwen had lived on, I'm sure she would've become as likable as MJ.

  10. #100
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manymade1 View Post
    To be honest, I feel like Lee (And I guess Conway with this story) were the only ones to really treat him as Spider-Man's greatest villain.
    Roger Stern treated him that way as well. Like if you read the original Hoggoblin saga, it was all about Norman's legacy and his lingering impact on Spider-Man's cast and world. When he returned in the '90s, Jenkins, Stern and others portrayed him as that too.

    Doc Ock's had way more instances of hindering Peter
    Norman Osborn/Green Goblin went the longest of any Marvel villain without going to prison (40 years until The Pulse). Whereas Ock has been in and out of jail since the beginning. This panel from the Lee-Ditko era confirms why Goblin will always be alpha and Ock, in oh so many ways, forever will be beta.

    ASM #18 - Goblin on Top.jpg

    And I don't see how Ock has had "more instances of hindering Peter". He's always been a thwarted enemy. He almost married Aunt May but had his wedding crashed by Hammerhead of all people. Spider-Man has defeated Ock in battle multiple times, even removing his arms from his body during The Owl/Octopus War. And even that Superior nonsense didn't amount to anything lasting.

    If Gwen had lived on, I'm sure she would've become as likable as MJ.
    Mary Jane was popular from the get-go and retained her popularity multiple times over the decades despite being written out of the books time and time again. So it's not likely that Gwen would have become as likable as MJ.

    The truth is that Stan Lee did everything he could to make Gwen work as a character. He kept changing her character time and time again across his run. None of those change stuck or worked.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post


    Mary Jane was popular from the get-go and retained her popularity multiple times over the decades despite being written out of the books time and time again. So it's not likely that Gwen would have become as likable as MJ.

    The truth is that Stan Lee did everything he could to make Gwen work as a character. He kept changing her character time and time again across his run. None of those change stuck or worked.
    Just because Lee couldn't make Gwen likable doesn't mean a later writer couldn't. There are plenty of characters who found new life under the pen of later writers.

  12. #102
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Just because Lee couldn't make Gwen likable doesn't mean a later writer couldn't. There are plenty of characters who found new life under the pen of later writers.
    Fair enough.

    I just take exception to this idea that characters in comics are blank slates that any writer/artist can automatically fix and make the next big thing or whatever, i.e. that character design doesn't matter, setup doesn't matter, background doesn't matter and you can just will a character's popularity/unpopularity into existence. Or that Gwen would be just as popular as MJ if not for her death. Such statements ignore audience reception, they also ignore a whole bunch of stuff dealing with society, aesthetics, and other basics of character creation and character design.

    The only version of Gwen that's ever found real popularity is Spider-Gwen and there it's a combination of a lot of stuff, mainly her unique costume, the visual style of the comic and the writing by Jason Latour that took her so far away from her 616 Counterpart in terms of what defined her. Likewise, that's a good demonstration of how random and unexpected popularity can be. Since Dan Slott did not think she would make it big, Latour and Rodriguez went rogue on his original idea, and Spider-Gwen overshadowed Silk and everything else in the original Spider-Verse event.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 12-01-2019 at 09:13 AM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by manymade1 View Post
    Was Gwen Stacy unpopular at the time? That's surprising.
    It should be, because she wasn't. Every character has their detractors, of course, but Gwen was very well liked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Not to anyone who has read the actual Silver Age stories it isn't.
    Not everyone who has actually read the Silver Age stories, some of us when they were actually new, holds the same opinion.

    It's actually possible to find both Gwen and MJ appealing as characters.

  14. #104
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Not everyone who has actually read the Silver Age stories, some of us when they were actually new, holds the same opinion.
    Ok, boomer.

  15. #105

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    Being popular or unpopular is a matter of public reception of a comic, not something you could guess from just reading the comic itself. Popularity does not have a direct relation with quality: we can always find examples of awesome stuff that bombed, and sub-par stuff that got popular.

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