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  1. #121

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    My biggest problem with the story is the fact that 00's comics could not leave the event be. Seriously it is mentioned so often sometimes out of nowhere and it is was really tiresome. But as if that is not bad enough stories like the 90's Clone Saga and Sins past both spawned from this story. I mean it is not as if the Spider-man stories constantly mention the death of Ben Reilly or Nathan Lubensky. Neither was the Vulture elevated to some uber badass statues just because he killed a loved one of the main cast unlike the Goblin, which I am honestly thankful for.
    Last edited by Obeythemoderators; 03-23-2020 at 12:58 PM.

  2. #122
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In other words, it's a pretty manipulative comic. They were getting rid of an annoying supporting character but pretending as if they were making a real daring thing.
    It was a daring thing though, as Gwen technically was still the primary love interest in the comic, however divisive or relatively shortlived her tenure may have been in the role. It hadn't been done before, and the book firmly smashed the remains of the Silver Age into smithereens.


    The story doesn't work if you play it for romantic tragedy as that Emma Stone movie tried and failed to achieve. Ultimately the story is about Peter getting with MJ.
    The popular opinion is that the love story and the tragedy were the only strong points in a movie otherwise overstuffed with villains, tangential plot points and twists that undermined the characters and sequel-building sequences.

    They even got rid of Shailene Woodley's MJ to emphasise the impact of the tragedy despite filming her scenes.

  3. #123
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    It hadn't been done before
    Roy Thomas did it more than two years in advance, by killing Namor's wife (according to Atlantean law). What's more, Dorma was a long standing character who came all the way from the Golden Age.

  4. #124
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    Roy Thomas did it more than two years in advance, by killing Namor's wife (according to Atlantean law). What's more, Dorma was a long standing character who came all the way from the Golden Age.
    Okay, let me correct myself. Nobody had done it before in one of the best selling books of the time.

  5. #125
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Okay, let me correct myself. Nobody had done it before in one of the best selling books of the time.
    Well, there weren't many Gwens waiting around to be killed, if that's what you mean.

  6. #126
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    I think "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" has held up *ahem* amazingly. It's not just an important story to the mythos it's a really well told one. The epilogue with MJ is one of the best moments in comics, period.

  7. #127
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    The epilogue is one of the reasons why the second chapter is flawed. That last panel is simply a bad composition.

  8. #128
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    It was a daring thing though, as Gwen technically was still the primary love interest in the comic, however divisive or relatively shortlived her tenure may have been in the role. It hadn't been done before, and the book firmly smashed the remains of the Silver Age into smithereens.
    Yeah, I don't think it would've had the same impact today, least of all because killing off characters has become overused in comics lately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    The popular opinion is that the love story and the tragedy were the only strong points in a movie otherwise overstuffed with villains, tangential plot points and twists that undermined the characters and sequel-building sequences.
    Funny, I thought that the love story was really badly written and that ASM2 completely botched Gwen's death (stuffing it in at the last minute was not the way to go).

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    They even got rid of Shailene Woodley's MJ to emphasise the impact of the tragedy despite filming her scenes.
    Given that the movie was the last of its series, I think it worked out in as much as it removed one loose thread from a movie with more loose threads then a cheap rug, but I think it would've been a disservice had the series continued (although the rumors of Peter trying to resurrect the Stacys in move three do put that to doubt).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  9. #129
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
    That last panel is simply a bad composition.
    <citation needed>

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    It was a daring thing though, as Gwen technically was still the primary love interest in the comic, however divisive or relatively shortlived her tenure may have been in the role.
    In the sense that all carny tricks require a bit of daring yeah, don't stop them from being carny tricks.

    It hadn't been done before, and the book firmly smashed the remains of the Silver Age into smithereens.
    The concept of the "silver age" was cooked up by people in the late-80s and early-90s. Absolutely nobody in the comics business, none of the writers and fans and so on, saw the '60s and '70s as "silver age" (just as no one saw the 30s through 50s as the "golden age") and while The Night Gwen Stacy Died did create a sense of outrage (less over Gwen's death than the perception of Spidey's failure), to most readers, the comics before and after Spider-Man and other titles were continuous and more or less the same as before.

  10. #130
    Incredible Member Ozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    <citation needed>.
    The idea was that you could quote me on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The concept of the "silver age" was cooked up by people in the late-80s and early-90s. Absolutely nobody in the comics business, none of the writers and fans and so on, saw the '60s and '70s as "silver age" (just as no one saw the 30s through 50s as the "golden age") and while The Night Gwen Stacy Died did create a sense of outrage (less over Gwen's death than the perception of Spidey's failure), to most readers, the comics before and after Spider-Man and other titles were continuous and more or less the same as before.
    True, but there was something different as to what it was that Ditko and Kirby were doing, and Stan coined that as best he could (The Marvel Age). Later, a more holistic approach was taken and it was renamed as Silver. And once the labels existed, it was inevitable that boundaries would be proposed. Just as inevitable for them to be challenged.

    Edit: as far back as December, 1965, we can trace the use of "Silver" to refer to the 60's.
    Last edited by Ozymandias; 03-23-2020 at 03:07 PM.

  11. #131
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    This is a wonderful youtube video by Matt Draper, a comics critic, who talks about the story in the context of Conway's classic run.

  12. #132
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    I’m starting to feel that quickly bringing characters back to their full glories has more to do with popularity and profitability than sexism, as valid as a complaint it is to make against, because I get the suspicion that Gwen Stacy’s death was largely motivated in wanting to have an epic storyline for the popular hero of Spider-Man, who could always come back to the arguably more popular love interest of Mary Jane, whom I suppose is also more popular than the character of Alexandra DeWitt. DeWitt had few appearances, though I suppose that could also lend more credit to writers like Frank Miller, who arguably made Elektra interesting in the few appearances before her death, and eventual resurrection, and became a popular character in her own right.

    And since I talk about popular characters, I suppose a question I should ask is this:

    How many times have female characters like Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Catwoman, Storm, Invisible Woman, and Black Widow been “fridged” before returning to their full glories?
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 05-08-2020 at 01:38 PM.

  13. #133
    Mighty Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    I think it holds up pretty well. It’s still important to this day.

  14. #134
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    And since I talk about popular characters, I suppose a question I should ask is this:

    How many times have female characters like Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Catwoman, Storm, Invisible Woman, and Black Widow been “fridged” before returning to their full glories?
    The important thing is that "fridging" is a pretty recent concept. It didn't really exist in the Golden and Silver Age (there's a stpry to be told about how the loosening of censorship in the name of realism was centered on stories about violence done to women). For instance Lois Lane was made into a very annoying character in the 50s, in comics which actually sold pretty well in its time, but nobody once pitched any idea of killing her even if in that time neither she nor Clark/Superman were in a relationship.

    So it's happened more often since the 70s. Among DC characters, Iris West, Barry Allen's love interest was often a recurring target, and indeed there was a pitch to kill her off that was considered before Conway's story in ASM. Later on it happened.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I’m starting to feel that quickly bringing characters back to their full glories has more to do with popularity and profitability than sexism, as valid as a complaint it is to make against, because I get the suspicion that Gwen Stacy’s death was largely motivated in wanting to have an epic storyline for the popular hero of Spider-Man, who could always come back to the arguably more popular love interest of Mary Jane, whom I suppose is also more popular than the character of Alexandra DeWitt. DeWitt had few appearances, though I suppose that could also lend more credit to writers like Frank Miller, who arguably made Elektra interesting in the few appearances before her death, and eventual resurrection, and became a popular character in her own right.

    And since I talk about popular characters, I suppose a question I should ask is this:

    How many times have female characters like Wonder Woman, Black Canary, Catwoman, Storm, Invisible Woman, and Black Widow been “fridged” before returning to their full glories?
    The fact a comic from almost half a Century ago is still discussed, shows how well it is aged. As for your comments, You are 100% correct. It is about profitability and popularity. Former Yankee Manager Billy Martin put it best: “I do not care if my pitching rotation is Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin if they could win 20 games apiece.” As for Gwen, I do not think she sucks as a character ( original, Ghost-Spider and ( especially) Emma Stone), but in the opinion of most Spider-Man fans ( myself certainly included), she just does not measure up to MJ, and although Marvel tries and tries with Gwen, and tries and tries to get rid of MJ ( starting with Romita sr), they know deep down who most people prefer and that is MJ.
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 05-08-2020 at 05:58 PM.

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