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  1. #226
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    I don't think its fair to dismiss the characterization complaints like that. Being unhappy that characters aren't acting like themselves is a pretty legit criticism, especially for a series heavy on (convoluted) continuity and characterization.
    On a board where people swear that JDW is out to get Polaris and Colossus I can't point out that some people vision of character isn't unbiased. Lets play a game which is right

    -Cyclops the rebel or Cyclops the boyscout
    -Wolverine the 200 year skilled experienced fighter or Wolverine the Berserker who jumps in with no plan
    -Jean the compassionate peaceful loving character or Jean the assertive take charge leader
    - Rachel who is recovering from being mind controlled or Rachel who well adjusted and assertive
    - Cable as no nonsense warrior or Cable who can finally act his age and isn't always badass
    - Scary hide in Dark Mr sinister or Flamboyant cooky Mr Sinister
    - Mutant Supremacist Magneto or Genuine leader of Mutants Magneto who is willing to cross the line for the greater good.

    People being unhappy about characters is fine, People pretending there is only one right way not realize that characters can be multiple things is the bigger issue. Also characterization can be changed for the story the writer is telling and trying to move characters to certain place. The X-men are going through one of the big life changes ever and people are complaining that they aren't the same static characters. I am not the me from High School, I am not me from Before the Military , I am not the me before I was married. I am not the me I was before moving to a different position at my job. Real people can be vastly different but comic characters have to be "this thing". It is not perfect but the writer is clearly trying to move some characterizations and establish some new things.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 11-14-2019 at 12:27 AM.

  2. #227
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    On a board where people swear that JDW is out to get Polaris and Colossus I can't point out that some people vision of character isn't unbiased. Lets people game which is right

    -Cyclops the rebel or Cyclops the boyscout
    -Wolverine the 200 year skilled experienced fighter or Wolverine the Berserker who jumps in with no plan
    -Jean the compassionate peaceful loving character or Jean the assertive take charge leader
    - Rachel who is recovering from being mind controlled or Rachel who well adjusted and assertive
    - Cable as no nonsense warrior or Cable who can finally act his age and isn't always badass
    - Scary hide in Dark Mr sinister or Flamboyant cooky Mr Sinister
    - Mutant Supremacist Magneto or Genuine leader of Mutants Magneto who is willing to cross the line for the greater good.

    People being unhappy about characters is fine, People pretending there is only one right way not realize that characters can be multiple things. Also characterization can be changed for the story the writer is telling and trying to move characters to certain place. The X-men are going through one of the big life changes ever and people are complaining that they aren't the same static characters. I am not the me from High School, I am not me from Before the Military , I am not the me before I was married. I am not the me I was before moving to a different position at my job. Real people can be vastly different but comic characters have to be "this thing".
    Using that, telling yourself as a married man about who you are to yourself in high school, would it make sense to them? These are completely different characters to how they've ever acted, and we are given zero clue how they got to where they are. That's a major problem, especially in serialized fiction.

  3. #228
    Incredible Member Strong Girl Daken's Avatar
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    How are they “completely different characters”?

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    God forbid I actually agree with you on something, but I agree.

    Calling the people upset with Hickman's portrayal a negative echo chamber is hilarious considering that these forums are the single largest pro-Hickman echo chamber on the internet barring maybe Hickman's Twitter feed. This Scott did not feel like any Scott in Marvel's publications ever. Same for Rachel. I can't speak for Wi-Fi since I go out of my way to avoid stories with him, but I'm guessing it is three for three. The dialogue is badly stilted. Having Wi-Fi act like a god damn psychopath was bad as well.

    I have to assume that Hickman simply cannot voice the majority of characters. And that's fine, no writer is perfect. But it does drag the quality of the book down.
    I just realized. Wi-Fi isn't that much older than at the end of The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, right? 3, maybe 5 years maximum since? After Redd and Slym left?

    If so... gawd, were Scott and Jean awful parents or what? Who decided to give Wi-Fi a bomb for his birthday and made him think that was perfectly acceptable?
    Don't like? Don't read. Let your wallet talk.

    When will Logan call out Jean for putting his clone and his clone's underage clone in an X-Squad?

  5. #230
    Spectacular Member Lapsus's Avatar
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    The worst issue in the entire relaunch, i mean, you have to worry when Apocalypse felt more human that those three persons. He is holding the entire relaunch, my god Apoc, you are the MVP.

    This was also the perfect oportunity of killing teen cable and replace him with this summoner, im sure not even Jean would notice the difference.

  6. #231
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Using that, telling yourself as a married man about who you are to yourself in high school, would it make sense to them? These are completely different characters to how they've ever acted, and we are given zero clue how they got to where they are. That's a major problem, especially in serialized fiction.
    A little bit no and yes honestly but that is whole different topic.

    How they got there that is fair complaint, I can't fault people for that angle they are clear changes that haven't been explained yet that is fair complaint. But Summers acting like an actual family that makes perfect sense and the interactions is the type of things that should have been happening before. I am not saying it doesn't feel off but it isn't ooc, This first time they have been shown living together and having to normal family dynamics. What people are calling out of character should have been normal. And now that Hickman started in his writing you will see it fined tuned with writers until it is the new normal and more comfortable.

    Let us take time to point out the serialized fiction is borked. How old is Cyclops? How old is Rachel? How old is Cable? How much time has actually passed by in the X-men world? The sliding timescale jack up stuff we see things a certain way but the official Marvel take is something different. This is 27ish year old Cyclops interacting with his 22ish(???) daughter and 16ish son. Right? While as fans Rachel and Cable for us have higher level of maturity because have been with them through multiple stories but stories doesn't want those versions. Some of what isn't working at least in this story is the Marvel official what these characters are isn't gelling with actually time we have spent with these characters. And forever keeping characters young and not official aging characters aka the long form fiction is making this story weird.

    Lastly a quick break down on the characters

    Cyclops- while he has been more dynamic of recent. Cyclops is in the Cap America and Superman mold of cheesy and stiff boyscout characters. He didn't that feel off to me this more of throwback

    Rachel- felt off to me but the question we have to ask has she really recovered from the last time she was taken over by Ahab and Nova. Hickman appears to be going for a dry sarcastic personality with her and she seems a little bit emptier but to me that is her not coming back all the way being mind screwed by people. Under that light she seem fine to me, I have seen more expressive version of Rachel but I don't think she is meant to be all the way back to herself yet.

    Cable- I was fine with portrayal, In world where he doesn't always have to be a super soldier, he gets to be goofy little 16 year old at times. Cable is bad ass soldier but also a goofy teenager

    It is clear they are going for more tight family dynamic where Rachel and Cable actually feel like kids of Cyclops and Jean. There is heavy emphasis on them calling them "mom" and "dad", There was heavy emphasis on Rachel and Cable having sibling banter and in this case older sister thinking her younger brother is a doofus. Also Hickman attempt to make Cyclops a little more lighter around them. The elements we are seeing is not accidental and a lot of these first two issues is meant to build the Summers family is an actual family and not people who just hug each other in one scene and then don't interact really. Again it is wasn't perfect by Hickman but it is was serviceable , Yu isn't penciler that was needed in a story where Cyclops needs to be charming and Rachel grey has to express slight annoyance at her goofy little brother. With better art this story would have went over better imo.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 11-14-2019 at 01:27 AM.

  7. #232
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    On a board where people swear that JDW is out to get Polaris and Colossus I can't point out that some people vision of character isn't unbiased. Lets play a game which is right

    -Cyclops the rebel or Cyclops the boyscout
    -Wolverine the 200 year skilled experienced fighter or Wolverine the Berserker who jumps in with no plan
    -Jean the compassionate peaceful loving character or Jean the assertive take charge leader
    - Rachel who is recovering from being mind controlled or Rachel who well adjusted and assertive
    - Cable as no nonsense warrior or Cable who can finally act his age and isn't always badass
    - Scary hide in Dark Mr sinister or Flamboyant cooky Mr Sinister
    - Mutant Supremacist Magneto or Genuine leader of Mutants Magneto who is willing to cross the line for the greater good.

    People being unhappy about characters is fine, People pretending there is only one right way not realize that characters can be multiple things is the bigger issue. Also characterization can be changed for the story the writer is telling and trying to move characters to certain place. The X-men are going through one of the big life changes ever and people are complaining that they aren't the same static characters. I am not the me from High School, I am not me from Before the Military , I am not the me before I was married. I am not the me I was before moving to a different position at my job. Real people can be vastly different but comic characters have to be "this thing". It is not perfect but the writer is clearly trying to move some characterizations and establish some new things.
    Okay, here's the thing: these characters are and should be written as both versions of themselves because they aren't mutually exclusive with one another. That's why Cyclops works so well under Hickman - of all of the characters you've quoted, he's the only one that Hickman is without a doubt writing correctly, with Wolverine as a close second. Cyclops is a leader first and foremost, a tactician - whether that's rebelling against the typicality of humans or he's playing the loyal boy scout, he fits both of those molds. Wolverine is the 200 year old skilled, experienced fighter but then he is also prone to berserker rages when he's overcome with his emotions. Jean is that compassionate and loving character that above all else wants peace but she's also a charismatic, active take-charge leader. Rachel is likely still recovering from mind control but she's still somewhat adjusted and badass. Cable, even as a teen, should be a no-nonsense warrior that above all else is trained not to do the stupid things he did here and be allowed to act his age. Sinister is both the hide in the dark type that can be flamboyant and Machiavellian (see: Fallen Angels, out the same time as this issue!) and Magneto being that mutant supremacist leader and the 'genuine leader of mutants' Magneto? They're effectively the same exact thing.

    It's Hickman who chooses one over the other while the writers around him that are in charge of these other characters choose both facets. As they should.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  8. #233

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    Well, Bee, one of the primary complaints since 'of X, has been a lack of individualism among the main cast. Everyone seems to speak with the same disturbingly untroubled voice with the only digressions coming from side stories like Marauders and Fallen Angels. Nathan is making the same jokes about why he's a hero and everyone loves him that Sunspot did in New Mutants #1. Same author, therefore a fair target for complaining about characters sounding too alike. On that note, why are the Summers family so cheerful and making plans to visit alien beaches? Xavier is dead and the Island is under threat. It feels like more tonal dissonance, and again, a fair complaint that the characters are acting weird, irrespective of the big changes in their community.
    Last edited by Handsome men don't lose fights; 11-14-2019 at 01:44 AM.
    The woman in the shadows with the elegant sigh.
    What could a common man do to catch her eye?
    Her easy manner shames me, oh I hate myself so much!
    I tremble and I'm breathless and I'm begging for her touch.
    She sees my anguished urges but continues smirking by,
    If I dare to follow her, it's likely that I'll die.
    But even as she's feeding, as my body's torn apart,
    Will she think upon me kindly?
    When she slowly eats my heart?

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I think what most irks people is that now Hickman has begun directly reconceiving characters that recently were murky, like Rachel, Kid Cable and even Scott. I'm fine with that and with the F4/Incredibles take. I think it's fresh but also rooted in past character. Others disagree. That's fine, but I stand by my take.
    I stand by your take too. Completely agree with the reconceiving comment. Different writer, different voice understandably, but the essence of the characters were there. look, we donít know much about this current Cable. There are aspects of his personality that might not jive with what we know of his older version, but Iím sure with time, weíre gonna see the writers take the opportunity to expand on more aspects of his youthful personality rather than continue on with the previous grit and grim that we saw featured with the older version. Scott to me honestly read about as stiff as he has ever been written by other artists, so I have no problem with his current voice - which seems rejuvinated and with a renewed sense of connection to his family.

  10. #235
    Incredible Member FIGHT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsus View Post
    The worst issue in the entire relaunch, i mean, you have to worry when Apocalypse felt more human that those three persons. He is holding the entire relaunch, my god Apoc, you are the MVP.

    This was also the perfect oportunity of killing teen cable and replace him with this summoner, im sure not even Jean would notice the difference.
    HoX/poX reawakened by love of the X-men. If you would of told me a year ago that I would be enjoying X-men as much as I am now I would name you a liar. Hell, I never even thought much about Apocalypse becoming relevant for more than one or two story arcs, let alone being written incredibly well. So I respect Hickman for that.

    The first 2 issues of X-men could of easily have been 10 out of 10, but the characterization of these characters are off. There is also a feeling of not much happening, which just makes the bland banter of the summer's clan seem annoying. I agree with everyone else that the art could be better but so can the writing, imo. Its not the worst, but like I said this could be great. I love the direction the story is heading, but the way it is being told could be better.

  11. #236
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    I think the original 4 Horseman were only metaphorically the children of Apocalypse, not biologically.

    Just like the O5 are "Xavier's children".

  12. #237
    Spectacular Member franckd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIGHT View Post
    HoX/poX reawakened by love of the X-men. If you would of told me a year ago that I would be enjoying X-men as much as I am now I would name you a liar. Hell, I never even thought much about Apocalypse becoming relevant for more than one or two story arcs, let alone being written incredibly well. So I respect Hickman for that.

    The first 2 issues of X-men could of easily have been 10 out of 10, but the characterization of these characters are off. There is also a feeling of not much happening, which just makes the bland banter of the summer's clan seem annoying. I agree with everyone else that the art could be better but so can the writing, imo. Its not the worst, but like I said this could be great. I love the direction the story is heading, but the way it is being told could be better.
    I agree with this 100 %

    Story : good, but the dialogues felt off, like some characters didn't speak with their voices.
    Art : not bad, but not good enough for a Hickman flagship book

  13. #238
    Embrace the Fluff FluffyCyclopsRLZ's Avatar
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    Le sigh. I don't get the discussion. Hickman is great at world-building, plotting and writing older characters. He's not so good at writing younger characters acting their age. I mean, it's one of those 'take the good with the bad, you knew what the score was all along, sheesh' scenarios.

  14. #239
    Lazy Struggler BitParallel's Avatar
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    I really liked the issue, it had humour and I really enjoyed it. The art is beautiful too so idk whatís the fuss about. My only complain is the month gap. Iím literally only reading this book .. the wait kills me.
    Yikes, my grammar has gone to shit. Rip

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handsome men don't lose fights View Post
    Well, Bee, one of the primary complaints since 'of X, has been a lack of individualism among the main cast. Everyone seems to speak with the same disturbingly untroubled voice with the only digressions coming from side stories like Marauders and Fallen Angels. Nathan is making the same jokes about why he's a hero and everyone loves him that Sunspot did in New Mutants #1. Same author, therefore a fair target for complaining about characters sounding too alike. On that note, why are the Summers family so cheerful and making plans to visit alien beaches? Xavier is dead and the Island is under threat. It feels like more tonal dissonance, and again, a fair complaint that the characters are acting weird, irrespective of the big changes in their community.
    They have conquered death. Brevity in the face of danger is normal for these characters further more should they not plan for the future? The entire point of this new era is one of hope. Having the characters bogged down in doom and gloom defeats that purpose.

    And there are several teams operating on Krakoa to deal with these threats X-Force specifically for the group that assassinated Xavier, Marauders, the team on Excalibur, and whatever handpicked team Cyclops chooses.
    Last edited by loke13; 11-14-2019 at 06:25 AM.

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