X-MEN #2 Arakko Review *spoilers*

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

The parts i feel were not great were Scoot having to tell Rachel to use TP, i think she is more experienced with her powers and battle honed to need to be reminded to try to reach out to him with TP.

Just throwing it out there, but the scene would've read much better if they'd decided not to start with a telepathic contact/intrusion just in case the-boy-with-an-island freaked out over it. Chalk up the subsequent post-Nathan-screw-up delay to the stress of battle and there you go. Oh well.

Still, after that whole 'Hey, turns out those Krakoan security scans were worthless since day one, lol' insanity, just about any other sketchy plot point/straight up plot hole feels like really, really, really small potatoes.

[Park Slope Pixie]

I don't think the Krakoa rebirth placenta nourished this version of Cable enough.

[Park Slope Pixie]

Also, "Prestige"? No. Never "Prestige".

[Killerbee911]

The parts i feel were not great were Scot having to tell Rachel to use TP, i think she is more experienced with her powers and battle honed to need to be reminded to try to reach out to him with TP.

That is not really that bad because the fiction does not want to make up its mind about that, On one hand it wants to be believe that only doug can communicate with Krakoa and then on the other it wants to believe that Telepaths can just drop languages in to people heads. So times Kwannon runs around speaking Japanese like she can't just upload english or make people learn Japanese and somethings Rachel forgets that she can download language into someone head.

[JKtheMac]

But...for a great number of readers/fans on this site and many others, they are living, breathing entities.

Which is those fans' problem and nobody else's. They are not real.

Then you have to factor in...as you astutely point out...the writer's interpretation of these characters...that may or may not mesh with the fans' notions.

Which is inevitable and not worth worrying about. As long as those who do have the power to decide are happy that is all that counts. The rest is economics, and that is subject to fashion and changing attitudes, and needs to be acknowledged by writers and editors. Which is how we end up in these pointless arguments despite everyone doing their job to the best of their abilities.

And yes, I quite agree, fans do not and should not have a say in how these characters are written...they can certainly shout their displeasure but...as I pointed out elsewhere...to what end? When the writers and editors are not at all inclined (after the fact...because these stories are plotted way in advance) to change anything...and as such is quite pointless and irrelevant...as I pointed out elsewhere (and got tone an attitude for it.)
That's why I personally accept things/stories/characterisations as they are, judging only on whether or not they interest me/entertain me.

And this is why I almost entirely agree with you. My way of putting it is that these changes will always inevitably happen and a longer term reader or a new reader that devours canon (because those two things are now much the same thanks to Marvel Unlimited) needs to either find a way to reconcile things (which you appear to do) or just stop worrying and enjoy the stories in the safe knowledge that Marvel and the writers don't hate us (which is what I did years ago).

I have spent an awful lot of time on these forums over the years, trying to convince the people that do think the writers are editors are at least dysfunctional, to effectively lighten up and stop creating an artificial barrier between themselves and the comics they should be enjoying for what they are. It is notable that my attempts to allow them to reconcile the past with the present never work, people either have that mindset or they don't. So the only real argument left is accept reality and recognise that complaining about something we have no control over is a literal waste of time and energy, even if it can be enjoyable.

I love these characters, and I probably will till my dying breath, but I am open to them changing and evolving with the times and the writers. That said, I do think readers like you and me are in the minority though.

On the contrary, we are the majority but we don't have as strong a voice on these types of platform.

It is what it is.

Which in a nutshell is my entire philosophy. The only way to change it is to write your own stories. The barrier to entry for comic book and fiction writing in general is at the lowest it has ever been in history. In that highly competitive space the writers that float to the top are usually those who speak to a broad range of readers, not a narrow fanbase.

[JKtheMac]

The parts i feel were not great were Scoot having to tell Rachel to use TP, i think she is more experienced with her powers and battle honed to need to be reminded to try to reach out to him with TP.

Well I disagree with that interpretation. That is not what happened on the page from my perspective. He simply pointed to the possibility that a new solution regards their recently implanted Krakoan language might help break down the barrier in communication. That isn't the same thing at all.

Your argument is like saying that I know how to write a letter, so I wouldn't seek advice if I wanted to write a formal legal text.

That is not really that bad because the fiction does not want to make up its mind about that, On one hand it wants to be believe that only doug can communicate with Krakoa and then on the other it wants to believe that Telepaths can just drop languages in to people heads. So times Kwannon runs around speaking Japanese like she can't just upload english or make people learn Japanese and somethings Rachel forgets that she can download language into someone head.

But you are assuming that is what happened, and I don't believe it is as simple as that. What appears to have happened in your language use is that Cyclops said 'If dropping English into to totally unrelated alien language speaker's head isn't going to work, why not try Krakoan.'

Or perhaps more precisely, 'If his language is so incompatible with ours that you can't even begin to translate the sentiment into one we recognise, perhaps use Krakoan as a form of Rosetta Stone to bridge the gap.

Remember that Xavier had a similar problem with Krakoa. It took Doug to find a means of communication. Rachel is not Doug, but she can use his previous workings to come to a solution.

So at no point did Cyclops say "just do that thing you do" he said "why don't you try this with that thing you do".

One of the biggest problems with comic book and much science fiction depiction of translation is that we can somehow work out how an alien language works from first principles without knowing the language. It wouldn't work to drop a human language into an alien's head, because most notions of language are anthropic, Hickman understands that.

See for example Arrival, which seeks to better express the difficulties of communication with aliens in a much more nuanced and considered manner. Or Contact which uses mathematics as a Rosetta Stone, but relies upon a possibly false notion that our mathematics is translatable.

Or go and look at the Phaistos Disc and the controversies and wild divergence over it's translations. (If for no other reason than the Heraklion Archaeological Museum is worth a visit.)

[Killerbee911]

But you are assuming that is what happened, and I don't believe it is as simple as that. What appears to have happened in your language use is that Cyclops said 'If dropping English into to totally unrelated alien language speaker's head isn't going to work, why not try Krakoan.'

Or perhaps more precisely, 'If his language is so incompatible with ours that you can't even begin to translate the sentiment into one we recognise, perhaps use Krakoan as a form of Rosetta Stone to bridge the gap.

Remember that Xavier had a similar problem with Krakoa. It took Doug to find a means of communication. Rachel is not Doug, but she can use his previous workings to come to a solution.

So at no point did Cyclops say "just do that thing you do" he said "why don't you try this with that thing you do".

I can see that but that should have been logical progression after they try english, I mean Cyclops and Rachel aren't stupid if you can't communicate you are going cycle through list of communication methods even if you aren't a linguist. What I am saying I didn't hold that much against them because it seems a little inconsistent how they want to portray this aspect of telepath at times.The fact that telepaths can do this is handy for stories like this when they want to be cheap and ignore language barriers but it also take the fun out of first contact stories. This is Hickman wanting to do a first contact misunderstanding story so he made Rachel and Cyclops(Heck Cable to he is telepath still) look a little bad by forgetting what would be basic stuff.

Overall downloading stuff into people brains it is something that shouldn't be used that often imo because it is easy button and nobody wants to set solid limitations to these abilities. Even as temporary thing they would forget the next day or couple hours it is still ridiculous strong creating a basic group of things(basic Combat,medical, math and language skills) to program in to everyone before missions is strong I understand why that ability is written inconsistently.

[JKtheMac]

I can see that but that should have been logical progression after they try english, I mean Cyclops and Rachel aren't stupid if you can't communicate you are going cycle through list of communication methods even if you aren't a linguist. What I am saying I didn't hold that much against them because it seems a little inconsistent how they want to portray this aspect of telepath at times.The fact that telepaths can do this is handy for stories like this when they want to be cheap and ignore language barriers but it also take the fun out of first contact stories. This is Hickman wanting to do a first contact misunderstanding story so he made Rachel and Cyclops(Heck Cable to he is telepath still) look a little bad by forgetting what would be basic stuff.

You have just repeated the fallacy. You are misrepresenting the page.

Surely you can see that Rachel doesn't need to implant English to realise it wasn't going to work? She reads his mind naturally "it is humanish" was the closest she got. She can't translate his language therefore it is incompatible with English without some other form of translation. Giving him English would be pointless without a Rosetta Stone because that isn't how language actually works.

Cyclops suggests the Rosetta Stone. Nothing More. Rachel acknowledges she should have thought of that, not that she should have thought of implanting English, but that she should have thought of Doug's Krakoan language as being the key to translation.

Overall downloading stuff into people brains it is something that shouldn't be used that often imo because it is easy button and nobody wants to set solid limitations to these abilities. Even as temporary thing they would forget the next day or couple hours it is still ridiculous strong creating a basic group of things(basic Combat,medical, math and language skills) to program in to everyone before missions is strong I understand why that ability is written inconsistently.

But this isn't an inconsistency, it is not a simple "downloading of language" it is a utilisation of a common frame of reference.

The worst Hickman can be accused of here is that he didn't spell it out. Did he need to? Possibly. Should he? I don't think so, because this is a part of his central theme IMO (the shift of cultural perspective of mutant's through the lived experience of Krakoa) and explaining such things might be counterproductive to the unveiling of the story.

[Tazpocalapse]

Well I disagree with that interpretation. That is not what happened on the page from my perspective. He simply pointed to the possibility that a new solution regards their recently implanted Krakoan language might help break down the barrier in communication. That isn't the same thing at all.

Your argument is like saying that I know how to write a letter, so I wouldn't seek advice if I wanted to write a formal legal text.



But you are assuming that is what happened, and I don't believe it is as simple as that. What appears to have happened in your language use is that Cyclops said 'If dropping English into to totally unrelated alien language speaker's head isn't going to work, why not try Krakoan.'

Or perhaps more precisely, 'If his language is so incompatible with ours that you can't even begin to translate the sentiment into one we recognise, perhaps use Krakoan as a form of Rosetta Stone to bridge the gap.

Remember that Xavier had a similar problem with Krakoa. It took Doug to find a means of communication. Rachel is not Doug, but she can use his previous workings to come to a solution.

So at no point did Cyclops say "just do that thing you do" he said "why don't you try this with that thing you do".

One of the biggest problems with comic book and much science fiction depiction of translation is that we can somehow work out how an alien language works from first principles without knowing the language. It wouldn't work to drop a human language into an alien's head, because most notions of language are anthropic, Hickman understands that.

See for example Arrival, which seeks to better express the difficulties of communication with aliens in a much more nuanced and considered manner. Or Contact which uses mathematics as a Rosetta Stone, but relies upon a possibly false notion that our mathematics is translatable.

Or go and look at the Phaistos Disc and the controversies and wild divergence over it's translations. (If for no other reason than the Heraklion Archaeological Museum is worth a visit.)

Well from what i read on page was Scott reminding Rachel that she has downloaded the language to every mutant that comes to Krakoa using TP.So basically he had to tell her to use her abilities to reach him.

[Killerbee911]

You have just repeated the fallacy. You are misrepresenting the page.

Surely you can see that Rachel doesn't need to implant English to realise it wasn't going to work? She reads his mind naturally "it is humanish" was the closest she got. She can't translate his language therefore it is incompatible with English without some other form of translation. Giving him English would be pointless without a Rosetta Stone because that isn't how language actually works.

Cyclops suggests the Rosetta Stone. Nothing More. Rachel acknowledges she should have thought of that, not that she should have thought of implanting English, but that she should have thought of Doug's Krakoan language as being the key to translation.


But this isn't an inconsistency, it is not a simple "downloading of language" it is a utilisation of a common frame of reference.

The worst Hickman can be accused of here is that he didn't spell it out. Did he need to? Possibly. Should he? I don't think so, because this is a part of his central theme IMO (the shift of cultural perspective of mutant's through the lived experience of Krakoa) and explaining such things might be counterproductive to the unveiling of the story.

Uhmm no I am not misrepresenting anything here are the words

Cyclops "I can't place it. Doesn't sound like any language I've ever heard"
Rachel"Its like singing"
Cyclops"Maybe we should try something else" (Then they proceed to be stupid and not try the most obvious thing they do later and let Cable do something,2 pages pass)

Cyclops "we need to talk to him"
Rachel "We already tried"
Cyclops " Yes but you've helped download Krakoan into every mutants mind when they get to island, Right?
Rachel "Right Good Idea, I should have thought of that"

While your explanation is good, What is happening has room for some interpretation. If this sequence should have happened on one page, Then it looks like Rachel just had a slight hiccup but still pretty competent. To have a more entertaining story required two X-men to not use common sense which they use later on. All of this Rosetta stone stuff is you fill in blanks for a writer which is fine it but it doesn't make what you saying what factually happened they are different reasons why it may have worked.

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[loke13]

So um yeah fun issue right guys? I especially like Kid Cable acting like a homicidal doofus.

[Devaishwarya]

I personally love that we're getting new characters...The Summoner and his siblings and the First/Original Horsemen, playing in the Sandbox.

[JKtheMac]

Uhmm no I am not misrepresenting anything here are the words

You are missing out the page that shows Rachel searching the island. That is the most relevant page because it shows that she can detect a "human...ish" presence. Not a Human one or one that she can get a read on.

Well from what i read on page was Scott reminding Rachel that she has downloaded the language to every mutant that comes to Krakoa using TP.So basically he had to tell her to use her abilities to reach him.

No. You are adding up some facts to make things look bad. Thats not logic that is just moaning.

Facts:

Rachel has been helping with the process of downloading the Krakoan Language into mutants.
Cyclops reminds her of this.
Rachel only detects a humanish presence on the island.
Rachel would not need to download English into someone to communicate with a normal human.

You can try and put those together to make it look bad but they don't fit. The facts fit my hypothesis perfectly.

P.S. Secondary facts now I have more time.

The Summoner does not speak Krakoan, but it is probably a language at least similar to one he is familiar with.
Apocalypse seems fluent in the Summoner's language.
Doug talks about Krakoan as being densely layered.
Rachel gets a 'dense' impression of the wildlife. {Perhaps hearing Arakkoan.}
Xavier couldn't clearly communicate with Krakoa via telepathy.
Doug describes Xavier's telepathic translation with the language as closer to empathy than language.
Krakoan is imprinted into every mutant's cerebral cortex when they arrive on Krakoa.
What the mutants call Krakoan may not actually be the language of the Island itself, but a codification created by Doug.

Put all of this together with the response by The Summoner to even seeing a sky and not being in 'true darkness' ie not having a concept of light, and we can assume his cultural frame of reference is alien to all human experience and that necessarily his language would be too.

To boil down these facts into "Rachel would have known to download English into his brain" when there is no mention of English in her or Cyclops' words, is to entirely misread the situation IMO.

[Tazpocalapse]

No. I am stating what happened on the pages. They show what i am referencing. It is clear that Scott mentions to Rachel that she has helped to download the Krakoan language into the mind of every mutant's mind when they get to the island. Rachel replies, Right. Good idea. I should have thought of that. Nowhere in any of my posts do i mention "Rachel would have known to download English into his brain"

[numberthirty]

I just don't get the complaints about how "Extra Crispy" Cable is being written.

Did folks just never read the early appearances in New Mutants?