Amazing Spider-Man 229-230. Years later what are your thoughts?

[RD155]

So just a random thread that popped into my head.

Personally for me, I feel its one of the defining moments for the character of Spider-Man. Granted yes I know it wasn’t even his own personal villain in the story but I don’t feel that takes away from it. It was and still is the best interpretation of David vs Goliath in a comic book. It’s aged well too because I’ve lost count as to how many times I’ve read it and it still has that same impact on me.

Its still the main story I recommend to people as far as understanding what makes Spider-Man tick. The humor, heart and never say die attitude are all on display perfectly in this short two parter. Also there no powers or ability loop holes used to have the hero win. Spider-Man never truly “beats” the Juggernaut, he merely “traps” him a sense. So both the Juggernaut and Spider-Man still come out looking good. The villain wasn’t misused for the sake of the hero which happens at times.

Needless to say, I love plenty of Spider-Man stories out there but this still stands atop the mountain.... honestly years later nothing else has even come close for me.

where do you guys rank this story and thoughts on it ?

[NC_Yankee]

So just a random thread that popped into my head.

Personally for me, I feel its one of the defining moments for the character of Spider-Man. Granted yes I know it wasn’t even his own personal villain in the story but I don’t feel that takes away from it. It was and still is the best interpretation of David vs Goliath in a comic book. It’s aged well too because I’ve lost count as to how many times I’ve read it and it still has that same impact on me.

Its still the main story I recommend to people as far as understanding what makes Spider-Man tick. The humor, heart and never say die attitude are all on display perfectly in this short two parter. Also there no powers or ability loop holes used to have the hero win. Spider-Man never truly “beats” the Juggernaut, he merely “traps” him a sense. So both the Juggernaut and Spider-Man still come out looking good. The villain wasn’t misused for the sake of the hero which happens at times.

Needless to say, I love plenty of Spider-Man stories out there but this still stands atop the mountain.... honestly years later nothing else has even come close for me.

where do you guys rank this story and thoughts on it ?

This is certainly in the Top 10 Spider-Man stories ever. I will add the respect factor to this. I got the impression that Juggernaut respected Spider-Man because he would not quit ( despite all odds). A primary problem I have had with Marvel is the disrespect shown towards the characters of Spider-Man and ( or) Peter down through the years. This story was only surpassed by 'The Final Chapter' ( ASM 33) when it comes to a "Never Say Die" theme in Spider-Man.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

If you read Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut you might come away thinking that Stern's run was all action all the time. Among Roger Stern's stuff, Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut, is not one of his most introspective stuff. It's basically a big action blockbuster so it's not really representative of his run in terms of his overall writing.

But on the whole I agree that this is one of the greatest fights in comics history.

Roger Stern when he started on ASM said that he felt that Spider-Man was made into a wimp in the runs before him with people forgetting how strong he is. So he set out to correct that by constantly pitting Peter with dudes across the Marvel universe. And he pitted him against Juggernaut. It's a fight absolutely without any jobbing on both sides. So it holds up brilliantly. Stern also used the story to get rid of Madame Web knowing Peter's identity so he also downgraded an annoying addition to Peter's cast and closed a hole left from the Denny O'Neil that preceded his. So Stern was able to solve a lot of problems at once.

[RD155]

If you read Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut you might come away thinking that Stern's run was all action all the time. Among Roger Stern's stuff, Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut, is not one of his most introspective stuff. It's basically a big action blockbuster so it's not really representative of his run in terms of his overall writing.

But on the whole I agree that this is one of the greatest fights in comics history.

Roger Stern when he started on ASM said that he felt that Spider-Man was made into a wimp in the runs before him with people forgetting how strong he is. So he set out to correct that by constantly pitting Peter with dudes across the Marvel universe. And he pitted him against Juggernaut. It's a fight absolutely without any jobbing on both sides. So it holds up brilliantly. Stern also used the story to get rid of Madame Web knowing Peter's identity so he also downgraded an annoying addition to Peter's cast and closed a hole left from the Denny O'Neil that preceded his. So Stern was able to solve a lot of problems at once.

Spider-Man being portrayed as this wimp/court jester has always annoyed me. I think writers at times don’t have a good understanding of his abilities. When you take all of Spider-Man’s physical gifts and powers into account combined with his intellect he should be one of the deadliest heroes in Marvel. On top of that he has some of the most versatile weapons in the Marvel universe. I wish more writers would accurately depict how much of a force he actually is.

[exile001]

Spider-Man being portrayed as this wimp/court jester has always annoyed me. I think writers at times don’t have a good understanding of his abilities. When you take all of Spider-Man’s physical gifts and powers into account combined with his intellect he should be one of the deadliest heroes in Marvel. On top of that he has some of the most versatile weapons in the Marvel universe. I wish more writers would accurately depict how much of a force he actually is.

He is supposed to be very, very fast. It frustrates me that this is so rarely used, as it's a huge advantage.

[Uncanny Mutie]

He is supposed to be very, very fast. It frustrates me that this is so rarely used, as it's a huge advantage.

This is one of the things that has always annoyed me the most. So many writers already downplay Spider-Man's strength so much, but as if that's not enough, most make him slow and totally ignore the fact that he's supposed to have super speed. And honestly, with his super speed, he should not only be shown jumping, leaping, flipping, and dodging at super speed, but he should also be able to run at a pretty speedy pace as well. Not "Flash" fast, but he definitely should be able to run much faster than an average guy, which I never recall a writer or artist depicting on panel.

[Huntsman Spider]

This is one of the things that has always annoyed me the most. So many writers already downplay Spider-Man's strength so much, but as if that's not enough, most make him slow and totally ignore the fact that he's supposed to have super speed. And honestly, with his super speed, he should not only be shown jumping, leaping, flipping, and dodging at super speed, but he should also be able to run at a pretty speedy pace ad well. Not "Flash" fast, but he definitely should be able to run much faster than an average guy, which I never recall a writer or artist depicting on panel.

According to some metrics, Spider-Man should be able to run at least over 100mph, maybe closer to 200mph.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Spider-Man being portrayed as this wimp/court jester has always annoyed me. I think writers at times don’t have a good understanding of his abilities. When you take all of Spider-Man’s physical gifts and powers into account combined with his intellect he should be one of the deadliest heroes in Marvel. On top of that he has some of the most versatile weapons in the Marvel universe. I wish more writers would accurately depict how much of a force he actually is.

If you read Comics-Creators on Spider-Man it's kind of shocking the poor understanding writers had before Stern. Read Marv Wolfman and he says Spider-Man has no super-strength and only ever fights non-powered villains who just happen to have costumes. It beggars disbelief how totally writers had forgotten about Spider-Man and became wrapped in their personal take on the character.

Stern was having none of that. During his run he was constantly pitting Spider-Man with villains outside his ball-game: The Foolkiller (an enemy of The Defenders), the Juggernaut (from the X-Men) Mr. Hyde (an enemy of The Avengers) and The Mad Thinker (an enemy of Fantastic Four). The only Spider-Man villains he had was the Second Tarantula and the Will o'the Wisp for that long Roxxon arc (which is quite underrated in my view), the Vulture, and of course the Hobgoblin.

Stern worked on the Vulture and gave him an origin (which involved Adrian Toomes being screwed over by Bestman for his inventions, which carried over into Homecoming with the difference being that since Bestman isn't a protected IP character unlike Iron Man he can actually be called out for being a scumbag and face consequences with Spider-Man openly admitting that he feels Vulture got stiffed). Stern also explained why Vulture is a threat by emphasizing that his suit harness gave him super-strength. So Vulture was no longer a sissy-fight and was retconned into never having been one. Likewise his Hobgoblin stories really highlighted that Norman Osborn's original formula gave him super-strength which Hobgoblin wants and needs and finally gets.

While many people admire Stern for his run it's kind of strange how underrated he still is because people only know basically a couple of stories and arcs and not the full one. When there are a lot of gems there. There isn't a single bad issue in his run.

[Lukmendes]

If you read Comics-Creators on Spider-Man it's kind of shocking the poor understanding writers had before Stern. Read Marv Wolfman and he says Spider-Man has no super-strength and only ever fights non-powered villains who just happen to have costumes. It beggars disbelief how totally writers had forgotten about Spider-Man and became wrapped in their personal take on the character.

Stern was having none of that. During his run he was constantly pitting Spider-Man with villains outside his ball-game: The Foolkiller (an enemy of The Defenders), the Juggernaut (from the X-Men) Mr. Hyde (an enemy of The Avengers) and The Mad Thinker (an enemy of Fantastic Four). The only Spider-Man villains he had was the Second Tarantula and the Will o'the Wisp for that long Roxxon arc (which is quite underrated in my view), the Vulture, and of course the Hobgoblin.

Stern worked on the Vulture and gave him an origin (which involved Adrian Toomes being screwed over by Bestman for his inventions, which carried over into Homecoming with the difference being that since Bestman isn't a protected IP character unlike Iron Man he can actually be called out for being a scumbag and face consequences with Spider-Man openly admitting that he feels Vulture got stiffed). Stern also explained why Vulture is a threat by emphasizing that his suit harness gave him super-strength. So Vulture was no longer a sissy-fight and was retconned into never having been one. Likewise his Hobgoblin stories really highlighted that Norman Osborn's original formula gave him super-strength which Hobgoblin wants and needs and finally gets.

While many people admire Stern for his run it's kind of strange how underrated he still is because people only know basically a couple of stories and arcs and not the full one. When there are a lot of gems there. There isn't a single bad issue in his run.

Yeah, I'm checking out older issues at random, and Spidey is looking weaker before Stern's run, but I didn't imagine other writters thought he wasn't super strong.

Wonder how many of his powers/skills writters forget he's supposed to have, like, for years until Slott's run, Peter's scientific side was neglected/forgotten, and even in Slott's run, he was relying more on brute force, but we still have him being smart like in Spider-Island (Even if he used Otto's tech for that, but yeah) and I also get the impression that before Spencer, Spidey was looking slower too... Like, Spidey doesn't have that many powers, why keep forgetting 'em? Lol

Also funy that Stern left Madame Web in a way that she could be used later, since her last appearance in his run hinted that she didn't conveniently lose her memory, so I guess he just wanted to get rid of her, but still leave the door open for anyone to use.

[Snoop Dogg]

It's pretty good.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Wonder how many of his powers/skills writters forget he's supposed to have, like, for years until Slott's run, Peter's scientific side was neglected/forgotten, and even in Slott's run, he was relying more on brute force, but we still have him being smart like in Spider-Island (Even if he used Otto's tech for that, but yeah) and I also get the impression that before Spencer, Spidey was looking slower too... Like, Spidey doesn't have that many powers, why keep forgetting 'em? Lol

My absolute favorite portrayal of "how fast Spider-Man is" comes from this panel in Matt Fraction-Salvador Larroca's "To Have and to Hold":

Larocca Fraction fight.jpg

I think Spidey's scientific acumen was established before but it was done subtly. Like JMS has Peter defeat Morlun by taking the fight to a power plant and weaponizing radioactivity. Then in JMS' tie-in for Civil War, where Peter is fighting Iron Man, Spider-Man who's using the Iron Spider suit tells Tony, "did you think I wouldn't find a way to overwrite your controls" and then he defeats Iron Man. And of course in Back in Black, Peter when he's beating the living s--t out of Kingpin tells everyone how he's a nice guy by noting that his web fluid could go up his nostrils and clog his body from inside...yikes.

Spider-Man's scientific knowledge should complement his powers the way it does in Stern and in JMS. In the case of Slott there's no balance. At times Slott's Spider-Man uses so many gadgets and tools that you could basically put in any civilian no-powers science hero there and it would be the same story. Like using Horizon labs to build his own goblin glider to fight Ulrich? Why does he need that, when he can swing a web any size? This also applies to the MCU Spider-Man movies where again so much revolves on Stark tech and special suits and stuff that it basically feels like the film-makers want to do a story of a normal kid given a special suit rather than an actual goddamn superhero.

[Aura Blaize]

Like, Spidey doesn't have that many powers, why keep forgetting 'em? Lol.

Probably because a fully powered Spider-Man should be close to unstoppable by anyone street level. Think about it. The speed, the strength, the webs AND the Spider-Sense? That's insanity.

[Hypestyle]

Spider-Man being portrayed as this wimp/court jester has always annoyed me. I think writers at times don’t have a good understanding of his abilities. When you take all of Spider-Man’s physical gifts and powers into account combined with his intellect he should be one of the deadliest heroes in Marvel. On top of that he has some of the most versatile weapons in the Marvel universe. I wish more writers would accurately depict how much of a force he actually is.

This is why I don't like many contemporary stories. Oh well. "somebody" likes it, hence sales continue to do well.
Just not for me.

[Speed Force League Unlimited]

I think it's overrated and not the classic people say it is, but it deserves a revisit for re-evaluation. I love Stern's run, but this one is my least favorite of his stories.

Roger Stern when he started on ASM said that he felt that Spider-Man was made into a wimp in the runs before him with people forgetting how strong he is.

He's mostly right. The best writer to handle his strength after Stan Lee before he took over is probably Bill Mantlo, but he still haven't made him as powerful as Stern presented him to be.

Nerfed down powers started with Gerry Conway (whose run in Amazing is something I've always thought overrated), he made him a brawler who can tussle with Luke Cage and stun the Hulk in some stories, and then have trouble against the likes of Tarantula who is basically an acrobat, and old man Miles Warren in most of his stories.

And writers like Len Wein (I love his work on Spidey) kept that trend to some extent. Chris Claremont had more respect for Spidey's strength, but made him faint easily after getting punched a few times although these are punches he should normally endure. Spidey lost consciousness at least once a story in Claremont's Marvel Team-Up run.

Spider-Man being portrayed as this wimp/court jester has always annoyed me. I think writers at times don’t have a good understanding of his abilities.

It's one of the reasons I couldn't get into New Avengers, Bendis made him a jokey wimp in that run and I couldn't keep up with that.

[RD155]

I think it's overrated and not the classic people say it is, but it deserves a revisit for re-evaluation. I love Stern's run, but this one is my least favorite of his stories.

He's mostly right. The best writer to handle his strength after Stan Lee before he took over is probably Bill Mantlo, but he still haven't made him as powerful as Stern presented him to be.

Nerfed down powers started with Gerry Conway (whose run in Amazing is something I've always thought overrated), he made him a brawler who can tussle with Luke Cage and stun the Hulk in some stories, and then have trouble against the likes of Tarantula who is basically an acrobat, and old man Miles Warren in most of his stories.

And writers like Len Wein (I love his work on Spidey) kept that trend to some extent. Chris Claremont had more respect for Spidey's strength, but made him faint easily after getting punched a few times although these are punches he should normally endure. Spidey lost consciousness at least once a story in Claremont's Marvel Team-Up run.


It's one of the reasons I couldn't get into New Avengers, Bendis made him a jokey wimp in that run and I couldn't keep up with that.

Disagree with your thoughts on the story but completely agree with your stance on New Avengers. I absolutely hated how Spider-Man was portrayed through out and that’s coming from a big Bendis fan. He never had a good feel for the character and to me
It was one of the wimpiest portrayals of the character ever by far.