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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member RD155's Avatar
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    Default Amazing Spider-Man 229-230. Years later what are your thoughts?

    So just a random thread that popped into my head.

    Personally for me, I feel its one of the defining moments for the character of Spider-Man. Granted yes I know it wasn’t even his own personal villain in the story but I don’t feel that takes away from it. It was and still is the best interpretation of David vs Goliath in a comic book. It’s aged well too because I’ve lost count as to how many times I’ve read it and it still has that same impact on me.

    Its still the main story I recommend to people as far as understanding what makes Spider-Man tick. The humor, heart and never say die attitude are all on display perfectly in this short two parter. Also there no powers or ability loop holes used to have the hero win. Spider-Man never truly “beats” the Juggernaut, he merely “traps” him a sense. So both the Juggernaut and Spider-Man still come out looking good. The villain wasn’t misused for the sake of the hero which happens at times.

    Needless to say, I love plenty of Spider-Man stories out there but this still stands atop the mountain.... honestly years later nothing else has even come close for me.

    where do you guys rank this story and thoughts on it ?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    So just a random thread that popped into my head.

    Personally for me, I feel its one of the defining moments for the character of Spider-Man. Granted yes I know it wasn’t even his own personal villain in the story but I don’t feel that takes away from it. It was and still is the best interpretation of David vs Goliath in a comic book. It’s aged well too because I’ve lost count as to how many times I’ve read it and it still has that same impact on me.

    Its still the main story I recommend to people as far as understanding what makes Spider-Man tick. The humor, heart and never say die attitude are all on display perfectly in this short two parter. Also there no powers or ability loop holes used to have the hero win. Spider-Man never truly “beats” the Juggernaut, he merely “traps” him a sense. So both the Juggernaut and Spider-Man still come out looking good. The villain wasn’t misused for the sake of the hero which happens at times.

    Needless to say, I love plenty of Spider-Man stories out there but this still stands atop the mountain.... honestly years later nothing else has even come close for me.

    where do you guys rank this story and thoughts on it ?
    This is certainly in the Top 10 Spider-Man stories ever. I will add the respect factor to this. I got the impression that Juggernaut respected Spider-Man because he would not quit ( despite all odds). A primary problem I have had with Marvel is the disrespect shown towards the characters of Spider-Man and ( or) Peter down through the years. This story was only surpassed by 'The Final Chapter' ( ASM 33) when it comes to a "Never Say Die" theme in Spider-Man.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    If you read Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut you might come away thinking that Stern's run was all action all the time. Among Roger Stern's stuff, Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut, is not one of his most introspective stuff. It's basically a big action blockbuster so it's not really representative of his run in terms of his overall writing.

    But on the whole I agree that this is one of the greatest fights in comics history.

    Roger Stern when he started on ASM said that he felt that Spider-Man was made into a wimp in the runs before him with people forgetting how strong he is. So he set out to correct that by constantly pitting Peter with dudes across the Marvel universe. And he pitted him against Juggernaut. It's a fight absolutely without any jobbing on both sides. So it holds up brilliantly. Stern also used the story to get rid of Madame Web knowing Peter's identity so he also downgraded an annoying addition to Peter's cast and closed a hole left from the Denny O'Neil that preceded his. So Stern was able to solve a lot of problems at once.

  4. #4
    Fantastic Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    If you read Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut you might come away thinking that Stern's run was all action all the time. Among Roger Stern's stuff, Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut, is not one of his most introspective stuff. It's basically a big action blockbuster so it's not really representative of his run in terms of his overall writing.

    But on the whole I agree that this is one of the greatest fights in comics history.

    Roger Stern when he started on ASM said that he felt that Spider-Man was made into a wimp in the runs before him with people forgetting how strong he is. So he set out to correct that by constantly pitting Peter with dudes across the Marvel universe. And he pitted him against Juggernaut. It's a fight absolutely without any jobbing on both sides. So it holds up brilliantly. Stern also used the story to get rid of Madame Web knowing Peter's identity so he also downgraded an annoying addition to Peter's cast and closed a hole left from the Denny O'Neil that preceded his. So Stern was able to solve a lot of problems at once.
    Spider-Man being portrayed as this wimp/court jester has always annoyed me. I think writers at times don’t have a good understanding of his abilities. When you take all of Spider-Man’s physical gifts and powers into account combined with his intellect he should be one of the deadliest heroes in Marvel. On top of that he has some of the most versatile weapons in the Marvel universe. I wish more writers would accurately depict how much of a force he actually is.

  5. #5
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    Spider-Man being portrayed as this wimp/court jester has always annoyed me. I think writers at times don’t have a good understanding of his abilities. When you take all of Spider-Man’s physical gifts and powers into account combined with his intellect he should be one of the deadliest heroes in Marvel. On top of that he has some of the most versatile weapons in the Marvel universe. I wish more writers would accurately depict how much of a force he actually is.
    He is supposed to be very, very fast. It frustrates me that this is so rarely used, as it's a huge advantage.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    Spider-Man being portrayed as this wimp/court jester has always annoyed me. I think writers at times don’t have a good understanding of his abilities. When you take all of Spider-Man’s physical gifts and powers into account combined with his intellect he should be one of the deadliest heroes in Marvel. On top of that he has some of the most versatile weapons in the Marvel universe. I wish more writers would accurately depict how much of a force he actually is.
    If you read Comics-Creators on Spider-Man it's kind of shocking the poor understanding writers had before Stern. Read Marv Wolfman and he says Spider-Man has no super-strength and only ever fights non-powered villains who just happen to have costumes. It beggars disbelief how totally writers had forgotten about Spider-Man and became wrapped in their personal take on the character.

    Stern was having none of that. During his run he was constantly pitting Spider-Man with villains outside his ball-game: The Foolkiller (an enemy of The Defenders), the Juggernaut (from the X-Men) Mr. Hyde (an enemy of The Avengers) and The Mad Thinker (an enemy of Fantastic Four). The only Spider-Man villains he had was the Second Tarantula and the Will o'the Wisp for that long Roxxon arc (which is quite underrated in my view), the Vulture, and of course the Hobgoblin.

    Stern worked on the Vulture and gave him an origin (which involved Adrian Toomes being screwed over by Bestman for his inventions, which carried over into Homecoming with the difference being that since Bestman isn't a protected IP character unlike Iron Man he can actually be called out for being a scumbag and face consequences with Spider-Man openly admitting that he feels Vulture got stiffed). Stern also explained why Vulture is a threat by emphasizing that his suit harness gave him super-strength. So Vulture was no longer a sissy-fight and was retconned into never having been one. Likewise his Hobgoblin stories really highlighted that Norman Osborn's original formula gave him super-strength which Hobgoblin wants and needs and finally gets.

    While many people admire Stern for his run it's kind of strange how underrated he still is because people only know basically a couple of stories and arcs and not the full one. When there are a lot of gems there. There isn't a single bad issue in his run.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    If you read Comics-Creators on Spider-Man it's kind of shocking the poor understanding writers had before Stern. Read Marv Wolfman and he says Spider-Man has no super-strength and only ever fights non-powered villains who just happen to have costumes. It beggars disbelief how totally writers had forgotten about Spider-Man and became wrapped in their personal take on the character.

    Stern was having none of that. During his run he was constantly pitting Spider-Man with villains outside his ball-game: The Foolkiller (an enemy of The Defenders), the Juggernaut (from the X-Men) Mr. Hyde (an enemy of The Avengers) and The Mad Thinker (an enemy of Fantastic Four). The only Spider-Man villains he had was the Second Tarantula and the Will o'the Wisp for that long Roxxon arc (which is quite underrated in my view), the Vulture, and of course the Hobgoblin.

    Stern worked on the Vulture and gave him an origin (which involved Adrian Toomes being screwed over by Bestman for his inventions, which carried over into Homecoming with the difference being that since Bestman isn't a protected IP character unlike Iron Man he can actually be called out for being a scumbag and face consequences with Spider-Man openly admitting that he feels Vulture got stiffed). Stern also explained why Vulture is a threat by emphasizing that his suit harness gave him super-strength. So Vulture was no longer a sissy-fight and was retconned into never having been one. Likewise his Hobgoblin stories really highlighted that Norman Osborn's original formula gave him super-strength which Hobgoblin wants and needs and finally gets.

    While many people admire Stern for his run it's kind of strange how underrated he still is because people only know basically a couple of stories and arcs and not the full one. When there are a lot of gems there. There isn't a single bad issue in his run.
    Yeah, I'm checking out older issues at random, and Spidey is looking weaker before Stern's run, but I didn't imagine other writters thought he wasn't super strong.

    Wonder how many of his powers/skills writters forget he's supposed to have, like, for years until Slott's run, Peter's scientific side was neglected/forgotten, and even in Slott's run, he was relying more on brute force, but we still have him being smart like in Spider-Island (Even if he used Otto's tech for that, but yeah) and I also get the impression that before Spencer, Spidey was looking slower too... Like, Spidey doesn't have that many powers, why keep forgetting 'em? Lol

    Also funy that Stern left Madame Web in a way that she could be used later, since her last appearance in his run hinted that she didn't conveniently lose her memory, so I guess he just wanted to get rid of her, but still leave the door open for anyone to use.

  8. #8
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    It's pretty good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark
    That's what I have over Beelzebub now, Honoka-chan. He thinks he's a third-year school idol. I know what I am. And in this fight-- that makes me INVINCIBLE!

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Wonder how many of his powers/skills writters forget he's supposed to have, like, for years until Slott's run, Peter's scientific side was neglected/forgotten, and even in Slott's run, he was relying more on brute force, but we still have him being smart like in Spider-Island (Even if he used Otto's tech for that, but yeah) and I also get the impression that before Spencer, Spidey was looking slower too... Like, Spidey doesn't have that many powers, why keep forgetting 'em? Lol
    My absolute favorite portrayal of "how fast Spider-Man is" comes from this panel in Matt Fraction-Salvador Larroca's "To Have and to Hold":

    Larocca Fraction fight.jpg

    I think Spidey's scientific acumen was established before but it was done subtly. Like JMS has Peter defeat Morlun by taking the fight to a power plant and weaponizing radioactivity. Then in JMS' tie-in for Civil War, where Peter is fighting Iron Man, Spider-Man who's using the Iron Spider suit tells Tony, "did you think I wouldn't find a way to overwrite your controls" and then he defeats Iron Man. And of course in Back in Black, Peter when he's beating the living s--t out of Kingpin tells everyone how he's a nice guy by noting that his web fluid could go up his nostrils and clog his body from inside...yikes.

    Spider-Man's scientific knowledge should complement his powers the way it does in Stern and in JMS. In the case of Slott there's no balance. At times Slott's Spider-Man uses so many gadgets and tools that you could basically put in any civilian no-powers science hero there and it would be the same story. Like using Horizon labs to build his own goblin glider to fight Ulrich? Why does he need that, when he can swing a web any size? This also applies to the MCU Spider-Man movies where again so much revolves on Stark tech and special suits and stuff that it basically feels like the film-makers want to do a story of a normal kid given a special suit rather than an actual goddamn superhero.

  10. #10
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    My absolute favorite portrayal of "how fast Spider-Man is" comes from this panel in Matt Fraction-Salvador Larroca's "To Have and to Hold":

    Larocca Fraction fight.jpg
    Yeah, that was pretty cool.

    One of my favorites is from ASM#275:



    I think there's another where Spidey keeps dodging, which you can see the movement in the panel, and we only see the last jump when he's almost grabbing the villain, I think it was Hobgoblin too, and Spidey was using his red and blue costume, but I can't find it.

    I think Spidey's scientific acumen was established before but it was done subtly. Like JMS has Peter defeat Morlun by taking the fight to a power plant and weaponizing radioactivity. Then in JMS' tie-in for Civil War, where Peter is fighting Iron Man, Spider-Man who's using the Iron Spider suit tells Tony, "did you think I wouldn't find a way to overwrite your controls" and then he defeats Iron Man. And of course in Back in Black, Peter when he's beating the living s--t out of Kingpin tells everyone how he's a nice guy by noting that his web fluid could go up his nostrils and clog his body from inside...yikes.
    Yeah, and those were good moments to remind us that he's a genius, but a lot of the time it just wasn't there, there's even what I think was a one shot where Spidey asked Tony's help to make web shooters in a bracelet for MJ, I'd understand if he was just asking for the materials, but no, he needed his help to make web shooters with bluetooth, absurd lol.

    Spider-Man's scientific knowledge should complement his powers the way it does in Stern and in JMS. In the case of Slott there's no balance. At times Slott's Spider-Man uses so many gadgets and tools that you could basically put in any civilian no-powers science hero there and it would be the same story. Like using Horizon labs to build his own goblin glider to fight Ulrich? Why does he need that, when he can swing a web any size? This also applies to the MCU Spider-Man movies where again so much revolves on Stark tech and special suits and stuff that it basically feels like the film-makers want to do a story of a normal kid given a special suit rather than an actual goddamn superhero.
    Well, that's Slott for ya, he likes exaggeration.

    Like in Big Time, the battle against Urich-Hobgoblin is closer to Ditko and Romita era, with Peter losing, coming up with a way to beat him by being smart, then winning, but Slott exaggerates by giving Peter a super awesome suit that nulifies sound, and becomes invisible too because why not, that one is more justified because he'd have better tech to use though.

    Problem is that, his scientific side is his gimmick that you have to be the most careful when using, too little and you lose one of the things that make Spidey stand out (Specially since most super heroes aren't as science-heavy nowadays), too much and he looks like he can't sneeze without his super awesome tech, middle ground is needed, which is why Slott gives Peter too much super advanced stuff, he struggles with middle ground.

  11. #11

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    One of my five favorite Spider-Man stories ever.

    I've read it a lot, and it just keeps holding up.

    It's impressive how readable and dense it is. You could easily imagine it being a 5-6 issue story now.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    It's pretty good.
    To the utmost, I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    One of my favorites is from ASM#275:
    My favorite is this one:

  13. #13

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    Some thoughts...

    It is powerful to have Peter Parker make the conscious decision to take down the Juggernaut, or die trying.

    It also holds up really well to rereading. The little moments like Peter's initial worry that he's fighting Namor, or the way Juggernaut doesn't even notice him at first are captured rather well.

  14. #14
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    While I like the Juggernaut 2-parter, I actually prefer a lot of Stern’s other stories, such as Vulture’s revenge arc, the Roxxon Tarantula story where he turns into a giant spider, the Mr Hyde arc, and of course the Hobgoblin storyline (at least what he wrote before other writers took it over and messed it up). I read all of those more often than the Juggernaut 2-parter, although I see why others like it as it showcases Peter’s perseverance in the face of enormous odds.... but then again the Lee/Ditko ‘Master Planner’ arc accomplished that even more efficiently.

    While we’re on the topic of Stern, I thought his brief comeback during the BND era was a dud. The ‘Blank’ story was very dull... ah well.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    While I like the Juggernaut 2-parter, I actually prefer a lot of Stern’s other stories, such as Vulture’s revenge arc, the Roxxon Tarantula story where he turns into a giant spider, the Mr Hyde arc, and of course the Hobgoblin storyline (at least what he wrote before other writers took it over and messed it up). I read all of those more often than the Juggernaut 2-parter, although I see why others like it as it showcases Peter’s perseverance in the face of enormous odds.... but then again the Lee/Ditko ‘Master Planner’ arc accomplished that even more efficiently.
    Agreed. My favorite of Stern's stuff is ASM#246, "The Daydreamers". It's also Stern's own personal favorite of his entire run but it's been practically forgotten. The Black Cat 2-Parter "The Cat Came Back" is also great, as people pointed out that story more or less made Felicia into the character she is today. Mantlo took that character and built her up in the pages of Spectacular.

    While we’re on the topic of Stern, I thought his brief comeback during the BND era was a dud. The ‘Blank’ story was very dull... ah well.
    In the 1980s, Roger Stern was on fire. Not only in Spider-Man but Avengers, Doctor Strange, Captain America, Triumph and Torment. But since then he never recaptured that high. I mean he co-wrote some cool Superman stuff and parts of The Death of Superman and Return of Superman, but that's about it.

    His Hobgoblin Lives miniseries (which he plotted and wrote) is good but not among his best. Revenge of the Green Goblin which he plotted (but scripting was mostly done by Paul Jenkins) is better, and I think that's his last substantive story for Spider-Man. In the BND era, I actually like that short sketch he did on Mary Jane in The Many Loves of Spider-Man. The art there is by Ron Frenz. Despite my issues with OMD and disagreements with Stern on how he sees MJ...that story is great and Stern writes from a place of sincerity and compassion, and fondness for the character. So I can't begrudge him that.

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