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  1. #1
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    Default When did Betsy take the blame for the body-swap?

    Curious about this because:

    1. Betsy did not "steal" Kwannon's body. The body swap was performed by Spiral at the request of Matsuo (or maybe Kwannon's boss, not 100% sure)

    2. Kwannon died from the Legacy virus and the portion of Betsy's telepathic powers bonded to Kwannon returned to Betsy

    In Hickman's relaunch, Betsy not only feels guilty for "stealing" Kwannon's body but Kwannon also states she was aware of Bestsy possessing Kwannon's body and unable to do anything.

  2. #2
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    I want to know when this happened as well cuz before Kwannon croaked from the Legacy Virus she wasn't in hurry to get her body back.
    "Cable was right!"

  3. #3

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    When she got the opportunities to go back to her british body and refused.
    When she was constantly expressing how glad she was to have an external appearance that fit the warrior within or whatever bs.
    When she started acting like a dragon lady.
    The fact Kwannon died of the Legacy virus gotta be extra salt on the wound. We never knew how the virus was contracted because the 90s writers were hacks but would Betsy have been the one to bite the dust if the bodyswap never happened? I mean from an in-universe perspective inb4 "but it was the writers blah blah blah"

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by raidensix View Post
    Curious about this because:

    1. Betsy did not "steal" Kwannon's body. The body swap was performed by Spiral at the request of Matsuo (or maybe Kwannon's boss, not 100% sure)

    2. Kwannon died from the Legacy virus and the portion of Betsy's telepathic powers bonded to Kwannon returned to Betsy

    In Hickman's relaunch, Betsy not only feels guilty for "stealing" Kwannon's body but Kwannon also states she was aware of Bestsy possessing Kwannon's body and unable to do anything.
    Well, there's two separate points here - guilt, and the relation between Revanche and nuPsylocke.

    To take the latter point first, I think the simplest option is to refer back to a previous example - Rogue/Carol Danvers (Superior Spider-Man is a similar example, but I'll keep to the X-examplar). When Rogue drained Carol, there was still enough of the latter left that (with Xavier's help), she was able to mostly recover, albeit sans super-powers. After that point, that Carol existed entirely independently of Rogue, and later became Binary and left the X-Men after they took Rogue in. But what Rogue had absorbed included an entire Carol persona, who existed inside her until the Siege Perilous separated them. The "new" Carol/Ms Marvel was entirely independent of Binary - none of Binary's experiences between Rogue absorbing Carol and the Siege Perilous thing "happened" to that Ms Marvel or vice-versa, they just stemmed from a common root. (Then Magneto killed Ms Marvel, but that's not relevant to this).

    In this analogy, Revanche is Binary, and nuPsylocke is Ms Marvel, even if the survival is reversed. nuPsylocke didn't even speak English in Rosenberg's Uncanny (actually, we don't even know if she can now - she might be speaking Krakoan and Japanese all issue in FA #1), but Revanche could fluently. They share nothing after the whole bodyswap mess that started it all.

    [It is entirely possible this worked both ways, and there was still a "Betsy" copy buried under Revanche. But they're dead anyway, so only semi-relevant.]

    As for guilt.... well, how would you feel if you'd been unknowingly keeping someone locked up - helplessly, for years - after you found out? Sure, Betsy never wanted any of it to happen - and was, indeed, a victim of Spiral too - but she's not a sociopath, and of the two (Betsy and nuPsylocke) she definitely got the better end of the deal. Can't you see why she might feel bad about it?
    Last edited by SanityOrMadness; 11-14-2019 at 10:05 AM.

  5. #5
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    Betsy feels guilty, which is natural. But the books are not saying she’s responsible, because she’s not. She also had no idea any part of Kwannon survived. She got very comfortable in that body and didn’t know there was more to it, or that this could ever happen. Her sense of self and self-image, which had always been troubled, became wrapped up in that form.

    People get weirdly hung up on Betsy having any normal human reaction to this kind of bizarre tragedy and get insecure and say that Marvel is “blaming her”. No, Marvel is doing the opposite. Betsy is blaming herself, unfairly, because that is what the natural human psychological reaction to such a situation would be. Betsy castigates herself, which is understandable. In reality both women are victims.

  6. #6

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    If Betsy was all "lmao not my fault and not my problem" fans would blame Marvel for throwing her under the bus and making her unsympathetic. Its all a big game of playing the victims.

  7. #7
    VEGETATIVE INJUSTICE! Kurisu's Avatar
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    When white feminists found out about it on tumblr.

  8. #8
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    The Carol/Rogue thing is interesting but Rogue was the one who committed the act so of course she'd feel bad after she reformed. Betsy and Kwannon were swapped by a third party and they were already on good terms before Kwannon ate Legacy Virus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    When white feminists found out about it on tumblr.
    Canon.
    "Cable was right!"

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    The Carol/Rogue thing is interesting but Rogue was the one who committed the act so of course she'd feel bad after she reformed. Betsy and Kwannon were swapped by a third party and they were already on good terms before Kwannon ate Legacy Virus.
    Sure, but (a) Betsy isn't a sociopath and (b) nuPsylocke isn't Revanche, which was the main point of the Carol/Rogue example. If THIS Kwannon knows anything about Revanche, it's not by experiencing Revanche's post-swap life. She spent the whole of her awareness since the near-death experience that led to the whole bodyswap mess locked in Betsy's head.

    [Judging from the Moira timeline in HoX #2, which put the Jim Lee X-Men #1 at "Year 47" and HoXPoX at "Year 52", that's five years and change of helplessness.]
    Last edited by SanityOrMadness; 11-14-2019 at 10:33 AM.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    If Betsy was all "lmao not my fault and not my problem" fans would blame Marvel for throwing her under the bus and making her unsympathetic. Its all a big game of playing the victims.
    It's not Betsy fault, doesn't mean she doesn't feel guilty
    Zethrimon unblock me

  11. #11

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    Betsy was the one who launched herself through the Siege Perilous which resulted in the whole mess too. She couldnt have predicted the outcome but it was a lousy decision which created lots of problems.

  12. #12
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    So it's Roma's fault. smfh.

    Quote Originally Posted by SanityOrMadness View Post
    Sure, but (a) Betsy isn't a sociopath and (b) nuPsylocke isn't Revanche, which was the main point of the Carol/Rogue example. If THIS Kwannon knows anything about Revanche, it's not by experiencing Revanche's post-swap life. She spent the whole of her awareness since the near-death experience that led to the whole bodyswap mess locked in Betsy's head.
    So Madripoor in Mystery retconned it so that Kwannon was still living in the Psylocke body after she died in Betsy's original body?

    oh my god.
    "Cable was right!"

  13. #13
    Spectacular Member franckd's Avatar
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    Isn't all of this just a "bad writing and blaming the character for it" ?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    So Madripoor in Mystery retconned it so that Kwannon was still living in the Psylocke body after she died in Betsy's original body?

    oh my god.
    It was pretty vague where this Kwannon persona came from until FA #1, when Kwannon makes two separate references to being locked in while Betsy was using her body.

  15. #15
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    She's human. She isnt too blame but I would say it would speak poorly on her if she didnt feel remorse for what happened. Kwannon is the one that got royally screwed out of what happened and to see her back and having to live with the reprecussions of that, should affect Betsy. She'd be a bitch if she didnt feel anything

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